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What cutout switch is keeping it from starting

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Denny Townson
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2002-06-03          39280

My neighbors B2410 has an intermitent problem where sometimes, it will not crank the engine. We have checked the safety switch for the clutch, and both PTOs. All three of these show continuity when checked with an ohm meter. Are there any other safety cutouts which would cause this problem. I can bypass all the switches and start it by running a jumper from the battery direct to the starter solenoid and that gets it going again. Next time he tries it may or may not start. Any ideas??

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BudG
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2002-06-03          39282

Try the Hi & Low range lever.
Bud ....

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Mrwurm
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2002-06-04          39289

Check out the seat switch.

Jerry ....

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BudG
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2002-06-04          39291

I did'nt know the B2410 had a seat switch. My B2400 does not have one.
Bud ....

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Art White
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2002-06-04          39294

Any intermitent problem is tough to find. I think you just have a switch that is just about ready to fail and have not checked it at the right time or, Another thing that often is found is the wires going to the switches. Check all the wires going in and out of plug in terminals to see if firmly connected. ....

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TomG
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2002-06-04          39299

I'll coin a term 'wiggle starting' and suggest trying it. Try wiggling and jiggling all operating levers that have safety interlocks while the starter switch is held on. If there's a marginal interlock, the wiggling may cause it to make contact and then the starter should turn over. It might get it started and also would identify which interlock to replace.

The starter relay or starter switch might cause the same problem, and they should be checked. It would be handy to check a wiring diagram. However, many systems have the switch and all safety interlocks in seeries with the relay winding. The relay cannot close if any of them are open. Closing the relay completes the starter circuit and a good starter should operate provided that voltage gets across the relay contacts. However, I’d keep in mind that trouble shooting can be a pain. Wiggle starting could be applied to the starter switch as well as the interlocks. In fact, trouble shooting gets complicated. Wiggling an operating lever while holding the starter on may in fact cause the starter switch to close and then a perfectly good interlock might be blamed.

Since you started the tractor by jumping from the battery to the solenoid, I assume that the relay contacts connect to the hot side of the battery and one side of the relay contacts should show battery voltage when the starter is off. The relay on my Ford 1710 completes the ground side of the starter circuit. There always is battery voltage at the solenoid hot terminal and I'd have to jump my starter to ground.
....

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Murf
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2002-06-04          39308

I think my friend Tom is on the right track, I have encountered a similar problem before. The culprit in each case was either the starter itself or the solenoid. This does not seem to make sence at first, but here is how it was explained to me by the starter rebuild shop. The traditional vehicle wiring system does not create enough current carrying capacity to really jolt the starter and sometimes the starter, or solenoid, develop a sort of dead spot, some of you may recall the infamous Chev starter motors in pickups, after a while the only way you could get them to crank was to give them a good belt with a hammer or the sort. By running booster cables straight to the starter (or solenoid) it jumps to life so suddenly that it gets past the 'dead spot' and works, as long as the starter does not come to rest on the dead spot again it will work fine next time. Best of luck. ....

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TomG
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2002-06-05          39328

Murf pushed back my reasoning to the motor/solenoid itself. I was thinking just as far as the starter switch and relay.

As far as I know, most if not all solenoids contain contacts that complete the circuit to the motor. Basically, the starter relay energizes the solenoid, and the pull-in solenoid winding pulls a plunger and starter gear into the flywheel. Contacts also on the plunger complete the circuit to the motor (Incidentally the solenoid also switches from its pull-in to its hold-in winding).

So a couple of 'dead-spot' things I can think of could happen. If resistance through a jumper cable is less than through the starter system wiring then jumping may push the system over a dead spot. First, a gimpy solenoid may not pull the plunger enough to 'make' the starter motor contacts and a little more voltage would pull it further. In addition, individual motor armature segments do develop low conductivity. Especially if the motor brushes are themselves gimpy and they are also sitting on gimpy armature segments, then there may not be enough power to turn the motor. A little more voltage may get the motor moved to contact with better points on the armature. However, some clicking or buzzing by the motor/solenoid would accompany most of these dead-spot conditions. From the description, I’m not sure if the starter system is completely dead or does some clicking.

There also is a 'dead-spot' idea on AC motors, and some oil furnace motors have a button on the motor itself to get it past a dead-spot. I’ve never been entirely certain what the button does and maybe somebody will tell me. I'd guess it would have to do with changing the valve of the starting capacitance.
....

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Peters
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2002-06-05          39345

Tractors are out in the weather and sometimes things will provide problems that you would not expect on a car.
The 750 JD which we talked about recently has a bad location for the main ground. As it was down near the front of the tractor the ground would corrode causing the same problem described.
I would check the ground and main hot to the starter for corrosion.
Peters ....

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Morgan
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2002-06-24          39818

I am having the same exact problem. I had the tractor (B6200) running just fine, skidding trees and logs with it, and then it wouldn't turn over to start. I thought maybe the clutch engage switch was dead but you guys have given me LOTS of other things to check out. I hope I'm just in between high and low on that lever, or something simple. I still have a lot of logs to skid and can't have any tractor down time right now. ....

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Morgan
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2002-06-26          39853

No luck. None of the switches mentioned are the problem. I have to get used to holding the key for the glow plugs with one hand and jumper cable to touch the solonoid with the other hand. That's a pain. It's probably a bad relay or wimpy solonoid. ....

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TomG
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2002-06-26          39858

Morgan: That sounds like a real pain. I'm not sure my arms are long enough to do the same thing on my Ford.

You might want to check for battery voltage at the starter with the switch off. If the circuit is designed like my Ford, the starter relay completes the ground side of the starter, and there's always battery voltage at the starter. If my tractor started only when a jumper was applied between the tractor battery and the starter, it would almost certainly indicate a bad cable or terminal. However, if the glow plugs pre-heated the engine in a normal time, then the battery and cables themselves are basically OK and the line to the starter and connections would be good candidates.
....

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Morgan
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2002-06-29          39923

Thanks Tom but I found my problem. Reeealy simple...my left foot had accidentally kicked and unplugged the wire from the clutch cutout switch. I saw the wire dangling down there right away, but I ignored it because I thought that wire had always been dangling, it looked like a wire that was always loose so I never bothered to check it. Then when got into the repair and went to look at the clutch pedal wiring in detail, I saw there was also another wire with a female end dangling, so I knew right away that was the problem. I plugged them together and BINGO. Well, the wire that I remembered that I had previously seen dangling was a different wire all along, the one from the horn.

Now I should fix the horn. (As if tractors need freaking horns...to honk at what, the other tractors?) ....

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Peters
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2002-06-30          39929

According to Murphy's Laws you will plug in the horn and something else will fail.
I can not here the car horns when I am on my tractors and have been startled once or twice as they drive by.
Does a tractors horn work if you can not here it? ....

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Peters
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2002-06-30          39930

Thats may be too esoteric. No Tom no. ....

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DRankin
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2002-06-30          39934

I think the tractor horn would have to be in the forest, and you would have to be somewhere else.
My tractor didn’t come equipped with a horn. Now I wonder if I somehow got a female tractor. Tom’s mind must be in warp drive by now.
....

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DRankin
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2002-06-30          39935

I went out and checked under the hood. Even though it says John Deere on the outside, it says John Doe on the inside. No wonder it is so cranky in the morning. ....

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bigbukhntr
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2002-06-30          39943

i didnt think my 3010 had a horn either...Art, should it have come with a horn? ....

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Morgan
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2002-07-03          40004

Mark did you ever think of becoming a comedy writer? That's some good stuff. John Doe! But female tractors have horns too! In fact, some Jane Does I have known in my life had louder horns than this buck. You can hear them even when cars are driving by. ....

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TomG
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2002-07-03          40006

JD's only have horns during part of the year after which they fall off in the woods. They don't make a sound then either--or do they? The answer to that question can be found in the book 'In Search of Schrodinger's Cat'. Esoteric enough?

The 'drive' sometimes drops out of assessments of my mind--especially after spending a fine week at our camp.
....

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Murf
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2002-07-03          40031

OK, my Kubota's don't have horns (although we put BIG air horns on all of them ourselves, but I digress even further here) maybe they originally had them but they were sold on the Black Market... The owners manual does, however, refer to turn signals which are not on the machines, but they do have Hazard Flashers. From this I must conclude that, here in the spacious North American Market, we have enough room to turn around safely but that we are inherently Hazardous? Wait a minute, no maybe it's that we are more hazardous going straight than turning? Now I need a drink....Somebody got some beer left over from bar-b-q'ing? ....

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DRankin
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2002-07-03          40034

I started wanting a drink as soon as I read that Tom was gone for a week looking for his cat's scrotum. At least I think it was his cat’s scrotum. If it was his cat, then he should be taken somewhere and neutered. He being the cat, not Tom, of course. But if he has a cat, and can't find such vital parts, the deed must already be done.
Maybe I will have a beer too. If for no other reason than to prove what I have just learned: There is no difference between a bottle-in-front-of-me and a frontal lobotomy.
So Tom, What are you going to do with it if you find it? Nevermind, it is probably some sort of Red Green Canadian ritual thing I won't understand anyway. Happy and safe 4th of July to all, especially to the neighbors, eh? ....

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T Staley
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2002-07-07          40116

Check for an inline fuse that power the system. I had a unit one time that did the same thing. After changing everything without correcting the problem I checked the fuse and holder one day and found this was where the problem was. I had previously checked the fuse and found it to be good. "Look at the fuse holder". ....

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DRankin
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2002-07-07          40119

Tom. All screwing around aside, I am quite intrigued by the book. I have been looking for just such a primer on the subject. Is it an easy read? I don’t want to need a degree in physics to wade through something, but rather I am looking for something on the topic written for us common taters. ....

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Morgan
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2002-07-07          40124

Schroedinger's Cat is taught in freshman physics as comic relief to students without any scientific aptitude, who are so frustrated with trying to figure out actual physics that they need something they can easily understand to bolster their self esteem. Years later, the only thing they remember from freshman physics is the story of the cute little kittle cat, they lord it over the people who never took physics, so they can feel superior to them. After all, they took physics and got a passing grade, because they understood the story of the cat in the box. But if you ask them why helium makes your voice get higher, or why the upper atmosphere is cold even though hot air rises, or why a spiral galaxy spins (same reason a hurricane spins) they will be utterly clueless. But they still feel good about themselves, because they learned about pussy in physics class (Schroedinger's). ....

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Peters
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2002-07-07          40129

Sorry Tom I never spent any time searching for Schroedinger's cat, I was too busy using Schroedinger's equation for HOMO, LUMO and magnetic spin resonance calculations. I guess I skipped bone head physics. I only taught bone head chemistry twice and the cat was not on the curriculum.
I guess I was thinking more extentialist esoteric thinking.
"Microsecond - The time it takes for your State-of-the-art-computer to become obsolete"
"Obsolete - Any computer you own."
OK Ok I was never good at way out wacko thinking. What do you expect from a Gadgeteer.
....

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DRankin
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2002-07-08          40134

Gadgeteer? Wasn't that a Disney movie?
I miss old Uncle Walt. Did I ever tell you about the time Kurt Russel tried to sell me a broken watch so he could buy lunch in the cafeteria? I think we fed him anyway. Can you even believe it was a Timex? ....

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TomG
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2002-07-08          40137

Good grief, the cat returns, or in the spirit of things, 'How do I know'?

I don't know if the cat as taught in 1st year physics is the story or the book I mentioned. The book is fairly old by now and I don't remember the author. Somebody I knew recommended the book to me because I wanted to gain a basic understanding of quanta-mechanics. At the time I had a director who was forever referring to things as 'a quantum-leap.' Pretty soon the whole division was saying 'quantum leap' ever other sentence.

I got pretty disgusted since I came to realize that nobody had any sense of the actual meaning of the expression. I undertook to cure at least myself of that pretension. I found the book to be just great and very readable by people without science backgrounds (I don't quite qualify myself). It cured my 'quantum leap problem' and a lot more. You get a brief history of early particle physics, relativity theory etc. Regarding quantum theory, the book also quotes Einstein as saying "I'm sorry I had anything to do with it."
....

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Peters
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2002-07-08          40138

Morgan solved his problem, but I still blow the fuse on my MF65 for the starter switch and forget it is there. If I crank too long the fuse blows. Unfortunately I don't know if the fuse is correct as I am just replacing what was there. I suspect that it should be a slow burn.
Peters ....

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Peters
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2002-07-08          40139

It is interesting how different info triggers the old neurons. Maybe I need a cat scan?

The other day I was sitting in the veterinarians waiting room with my dog. A man came rushing though the door with a cardboard box under his arm. In the box was a dog and the agitated man began extolling the nurse to have the vet look at his dog immediately as he thought it might be dead. After much pleading the vet came out and took the box to the examination room and began the examination the lifeless dog. After checking the dog for a pulse, a breath and listening to the dog’s heart with her stethoscope the doctor announced to the man that the dog was indeed dead.

"Are you sure." the man wailed. "How can you be certain! Can you do anymore!"

The doctor turned and left the examination room and enter a back room, removed a live cat from the a cage and proceeded to the dog. She rubbed the cat up and down the dog’s lifeless body for 10 minutes.

"Yes I am sure the dog is dead sir", she replied. "You can pay the nurse $525."

"$525!!" the man screamed. " To tell me the dog is dead! It shouldn’t be any more than $25."

"Yes, $525." She replied "$25 for the examination and $500 for the Cat Scan."
....

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TomG
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2002-07-08          40146

Peters: I can't find a fuse in the starter/solenoid circuit of my 1710. Maybe protection in the design is an assumption that over-current will cause the starter relay contacts to burn up, or maybe the line ahead of the relay is in contact with enough iron that a short isn't going to heat up anything too much--except the battery itself I guess.

The starter relay winding circuit is fuse protected by a branch circuit fuse and by the main fusible link. The relay winding circuit shouldn't be subject to a starting surge currents like a series wound DC motor, and a slow blow fuse probably wouldn't help much. It's my assumption that starter motors are series wound.

Maybe the Massey design uses a marginal sized fuse to keep owners from running the starter for very long at a time.
....

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DRankin
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2002-07-08          40152

I heard the dead dog gets a once-over from a black retreiver and the guy also gets charged for "Lab" work. ....

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Murf
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2002-07-08          40157

Tom, I believe you will find that there is a fuse in the circuit, but it is usually right where the positive comes from the power source heading to the key switch, this way if the key switch shorts, or the wiring does, the whole thing goes dead leaving as little 'live' wire as possible. Best of luck. ....

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Peters
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2002-07-08          40174

I would not get too worked up about my MF. Most of the problem is my forgetting it this there and going back to square one cleaning contacts etc. As with most wiring of this era, not much of it is any good. I need to rewire the whole thing but have too many other projects right now.
As the tractor and I are the same age I am being to question my wiring as I am also loosing current and continuity. I guess the next slide down the hill will be my plumbing, right Tom. ....

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TomG
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2002-07-09          40217

Murf: Well, you got me thinking. There really doesn't seem to be anyting between the battery and the b-terminal on my solenoid/motor. A fusible link that feeds most other circuits comes off the b-terminal rather than from the battery. The wiring diagram does get a little confusing since it black boxes the starter relay rather than drawing the contact and winding terminals. However, I'm just not seeing a way the starter/solenoid current would go through the fusible link--at least on my 1710. ....

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TomG
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2002-07-10          40237

And this morning, I was thinking and concluded that I should say 'Thanks Murf.' As I've said a number of times over the past few years.

What I found is that I should read my wiring diagram instead of just tracing wires. What I thought was a starter relay is labeled the safety interlock relay, and the 1710 doesn't seem to have a starter relay. At least in automotive systems the purpose of a starter relay is to avoid having a high current circuit running through the starter switch and that's what I figured the relay did.

It looks like the motor circuit is through the 'S' terminal on the solenoid and it does run through the fusible link and the key switch. The winding for the interlock relay also runs through the switch and link. Well dang! After spending nearly every working day as a tech in the USAF reading electronic schematics, I wouldn't have thought I would get this one wrong.
....

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Morgan
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2002-07-11          40288

Peters, you should be more worried about your hydraulics than your plumbing. ....

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