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Reed_V
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2002-01-21          34821

I have hilly land in Maine and Kubota B2410. How steep a hill can 4WD compact tractors go down? What should I look out for when going down a steep hill?

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cutter
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2002-01-21          34823

Check the archives for some of what you are looking for, especially if you are side hilling. Otherwise, a tractor will go down any hill, just depends upon what you want it to look like at the bottom. There are too many factors involved for anyone here to make a flat statement and be secure in the fact that what they told you would not get you hurt or worse. All I can say is think about how steep the hill, how heavy the rear, how heavy the front proportionately, what are you driving on, how wet is it, how well will your unit hold you back with the transmission in low gear, will you be making a turn and so forth. ....

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John Mc
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 98 Vermont
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2002-01-21          34824

A couple of tips:
(1) Do NOT put it in neutral and coast down the hill. First, it's a great way to get out of control, second, on some types of transmissions, you can overspeed a part and cause things to come apart inside the transmission (sorry I can't give a better explanation...

(2) Put the tractor in 4WD before starting down. This allows you to get engine braking effect on all 4 wheels. Most tractors have brakes on the rear wheels only, so just relying on the break pedal doesn't give you as much traction.

(3) Go down the hill in the same gear you'd be using to go up it ... or use a lower gear. On steep hills, don't use high gear... poos engine braking effect. Keep your speed down.

(4) Consider what you are driving on. All the braking in the world won't do you any good if the ground underneath you is sliding.

(5) If you have an implement on the rear that can provide some drag, consider using it (cautiously) as an emergency brake if things start to get our of hand. The FEL is also a possibility for this, but if you are going down frontwards it may be a bit risky if you've let your speed build up. ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-01-22          34833

There is a bunch of reading on this subject in the archives. The mechanics of a tractor runaway are such that once a tractor starts sliding there's little chance of it stopping before the bottom except for doing something like dropping a loader blade if there's time. Once tires start sliding there's little braking or steering, and also little chance of regaining traction (Fortunately I'm not experienced here).

John's comment about the ground sliding brought a thought to mind. Many tractor slides can be thought of as loosing traction. However, saturated ground sometimes slides on it's own. It won't support itself let alone a tractor. Nothing done to increase traction is going to work and may even make things worse. Such ground is simply impassable and recognized as such.

Proper ballasting should increase traction and reduce to potential for sliding on more stable ground. More weight, especially below the centre of gravity, increases traction and stability. I know there's a difference of opinion here, but I'm more comfortable backing down suspect hills. My reasoning is that on a hill there's a weight transfer toward the downhill wheels, so I'd rather have the large rear tires downhill.

Some tips not mentioned are: Always go straight up or down steep hills. As long as no steering is required, engaging the diff lock will increase traction and prevent differential counter-rotation.





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Reed_V
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2002-01-23          34861

Thanks a lot for your help and suggestions. I'll let you know how it turns out! ....

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filip
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 2 BC Canada
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2002-02-04          35278

Hi Reed, I bought the B2400hst because I operate a lot on a hillside and I wanted the most stable tractor possible. I also filled all 4 tires with the maximum ballast of water and calcium, the tractor is built low to the ground with good power. So far have been happy with the results. The big danger is lifting the FEL and side rolling. There is also a tilt gauge which looks interesting that I would check out also ( I don't have one and was wondering if others liked them?) Lots of good advice from others here. ....

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Bird Senter
Join Date: Jun 1999
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2002-02-04          35287

filip, I have two tiltmeters; one for side to side (model 25C) and one for front to rear (model 7489C). Try the link below if you'd like to see them. I've found Rick (R&B Mfg.) to be a good guy to deal with. ....


Link:   

Click Here


 
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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-02-05          35305

I wonder if any of these slope gauges have been combined with an alarm? Many planes have stall warning alarms that are triggered by the air speed indicator I believe. The old Luscombe I flew a bit didn't have one. It's true that when they're really needed pilots likely are concentrating on flying so much that they may not read the air speed.

I think tilt meters are convenient ways to measure slopes (useful but not a guarantee against turnovers). If a person is working the same ground, they'll probably learn their slopes pretty fast and then the gauge won't be looked at too often. However, I guess I have built a few new hills from time to time where reading the new slopes might be useful. I’m more along the lines of: ‘If it feels unsafe, then it probably is.’
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John Mc
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 98 Vermont
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2002-02-05          35326

*** OFF TOPIC ALERT ***

TomG -
I didn't know you were a pilot! I'm working on getting my Flight Instructor rating. Never have flown a Luscombe (or any tail wheel for that matter), but I've always wanted to. My wife (also a pilot) and I own a Cessna 172 and have tooled around a good bit of the US in it. (Got to fly right of Washington DC... a few days before 9/11. Guess we won't get to do that again anytime soon).

Are you still an active pilot? If so, where do you fly?

BTW... most of the stall warnings work on angle of attack of the air, not on airspeed. Otherwise, they would not take into account the fact that an aircraft stalls at a higher speed when pulling G's (as in a steep turn). The angle of attack at which an airplane stalls is constant, airspeed is not.

John Mc ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2002-02-06          35341

I'm on alert, but I guess this still is a complete self-indulgence--nothing about tractors here. Hope it's not too long.

I grew up in an air line family. The Luscombe (80-horse flavour) was a club plane mostly used by flight personnel for 'hours' back in the days when some ratings had to be gained at personal expense. The plane became more recreational and my dad passed his share along to me.

I never completed my license. After gobs of 2nd seat time with my dad, an instructor rode with me for 12 hours. I soloed, but it was a rotten year. I was coming 90 miles from school weekends to fly, and the weather was consistently bad. I enlisted in the Air Force some months later where I never flew, and never took up private flying again. Too expensive I guess. The Luscombe was very inexpensive. A club of commercial pilots got deals on most everything. Most people in the club were mechanics, so maintenance costs were materials and testing. Several members had instructor ratings. Once in a lifetime deal I guess.

The Luscombe was fun. It had a fully acrobatic frame, but limited by the 80-HP. I spent quite a few hours practicing every imaginable stall and spin. Thanks for the comment about the stall alarms. I never thought much about how they worked. I did think there was a difference in attitude between power on and off stalls, but that was a long time ago. The flying was around Denver, which can be interesting in itself. Hot summer day, 5,000+’ altitude, dirt strip, full tanks and my 200+ lbs. instructor. You could stall while still parked. Some members obsessively topped up the tanks even when the forecast was for 100-degree weather.

It still unnerves me to land in a tri-cycle gear plane. Rotating backwards is normal. Rotating forwards is screwing up a power landing. No crosswind gears on those planes. In big crosswinds, you flew final wing-down under power and set it down on one wheel.
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John Mc
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 98 Vermont
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2002-02-06          35345

TomG - Sounds like you had some fun with that Luscombe! I've done stalls, and had to do spins while working on the CFI rating (fun, once you got used to it). They don't require spins for a private license any more.

You are right about the attitude being different for power-on and power-off stalls. Angle of attack is the angle formed by the relative wind and the wing, not the angle of the wing to the ground. With power on, this changes the motion of the plane through the air (and blows prop wash over the wings), so the attitude vs the ground is different.

Your cross wind landing technique is what is used on most light training aircraft today. The crosswind landing gear never really caught on. (The only time I've seen them was on an Ercoupe, I think.)

If you are ever in the neighborhood of Burlington, VT look me up and I'll take you for an aerial tour.

John Mc ....

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Bill A.
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2002-02-06          35350

I have a B2910 HST that I dearly love in all respects. I have 6 acres of hilly semi-wooded land in Kentucky. The tractor is very stable but the above posts about hills and sliding ground are all true. The front end loader (FEL)deserves particular mention as it dramatically changes the tractors balance and is directly related to what you have hanging on the back end. I regularly handle FEL loads of 500 to 1000 lb. with a box blade or bush hog on the back but once I had a 150lb scraper blade on the 3 pt and picked up about 600 lb in the loader and had it up on two wheels on a small side slope in a heartbeat. The mistake was mine and I dropped the FEL quick. Also keep your ROP up whenever possible and get in the habit of wearing the seatbelt, if I had rolled on that slope there was no way I could have jumped clear. ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-02-07          35359

And now some responsibility and back to tractors, except to note that B52's have crosswind gears. Very strange to see something that big rolling down a runway with its nose pointed somewhere else. Thanks, I'll remember the offer even if I seldom venture outside my township.

What I understand about ROP systems is that the ROPS and seatbelts go together. I've heard that it's generally more dangerous to have a ROPS and not use a seat belt than to not have a ROPS. The idea is that jumping or simply falling from a tractor tends to be from the low side. That's the direction the tractor is rolling, and there's a good chance of ending up under the ROPS bar.

This summer I was surprised at how easily a slide could happen (although it didn't). I was digging postholes, empty bucket and in 2WD. For a couple holes it was convenient to drive partway into a highway ditch on dry meadow grass (perpendicular to the slope of course). Ro my surprise, the turf tires didn't have enough traction to get back up the hill, even using the diff lock. I had to put it into 4wd. If the slope had been much steeper or the grass wet I would have slid to the bottom--not a long way but still not something you don't want to do.

Last summer there was a fatality reported here. A tractor with flotation tires working on a golf course slid into a pond. The slope had been worked many times before, but the grass was wet. Unfortunately, it doesn't take much to slide on a hill.
....

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AZranch
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 7 Arizona
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2002-02-18          35711

Great to see flyers here...I'm a formern pilot with time as a support plane pilot fo rthe former Great Lakes company. We built and sold a 2 seat aerobatic sport biplane (bigger than a Pitts/smaller than a Stearman) 180hp Lyc (AEIO360).
I'm looking for an idea on prices for a Kubota 2710 w/ FEL. I have 40 acres of a former working cattle ranch in AZ where they would uproot all trees every ~30 years and the property is covered with rampikes (look it up)...I have not had much luck getting any information from the closest dealer about prices/availability. I need a machine that will have th guts to pull stumps and lift trees to build burn piles; to say nothing of garden duty for my wife. The sooner we clear this land the sooner we can build. Should we go the used route or invest in a new machine? Any help would be appreciated...I used to live in Hanover N.H. and our factory for Aircraft production was in Claremont, N.H.
I went to school in Montpelier and used to go to Burlington often...
Regards to all and thanks for any information..













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AZranch
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 7 Arizona
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2002-02-18          35712

Sorry for the typo's, working on laptop for the first time and attempting to beat the dinner bell.
Wasn't able to post my message with the subject group I had intended...not sure if our PC is going to get a message online, many pardons for the clumbsy start to a great looking site. ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-02-19          35721

The conventional wisdom is that many first time uses for a tractor on a piece of property are heavy duty and would require a much larger tractor than needed for the on-going work. Big tractors can be a liability, especially for work that requires maneuverability.

Land clearing that involves trees often is performed quicker and less expensively by contracting out to the dozer guy. The tractor budget can then be spent getting a tractor that is more useful for work that's going to have be done all the time for many years.

Stearmans were the first planes my dad worked on as a mechanic before going to build lend-lease B17's. There were still a few Stearman's and Beech Staggerwinds working as dusters on the dirt-strip field I flew out of.
....

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Morgan Wright
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2002-03-29          36865

Best way down a really steep hill is face down using the back hoe to grab the ground behind you. That sucker grabs the dirt like a giant hand and you can let yourself down in increments.

Best way to go along side a steep hill also is to use the back hoe. If you are going sideways on the hill and the hill slopes to the left, you swing the back hoe over to the right to balance you. Always keep the backhoe towards the uphill side. ....

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Charlie Iliff
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2002-03-30          36886

TomG
Staggerwing as a duster?!!
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Bird Senter
Join Date: Jun 1999
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2002-03-30          36887

TomG, I believe it was '82 when my brother and I were taking a new Cessna 152 from the factory in Wichita, KS, to Anchorage, AK, and if I remember right, it was in Fort St. John where met up with a couple enroute to Whitehorse from Edmonton, to visit friends. By occupation, he was a 747 pilot, but he and his wife were flying a red Stagger Wing that I think he said they had spent 5 years restoring. It was a beautiful machine. ....

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Charlie Iliff
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2002-03-30          36888

Bird:
I learned to fly at Freeway Airport, between Annapolis, MD and DC in the 60s and kept planes there until the early 80s. There was a gorgeous Staggerwing that used to visit periodically - candy apple red. It was far better than stock, with superb polish on all surfaces; I think won some prizes at the EAA conventons at Lakeland and Oshkosh.
I never rode in it, but a friend flew it and said it was superb.
You should have been there the day a rube stood his four-year-old son on the lower wing and backed up to take pictures. We knew we'd have to call for an ambulance, but weren't sure whether it would be for the proud father or the stricken Staggerwing owner. ....

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Bird Senter
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2002-03-30          36889

Yep, I understand about that ambulance, Charlie. The night we spent in Fort St. John (because of weather), we tied down the 152, a young couple also there in a 152 tied it down, and a fellow in a 180 tied it down, but the Stagger Wing owner rented a hangar and we helped him roll it inside for the night.LOL ....

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Morgan
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 126 Albany, NY
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2002-03-30          36891

Get a room. We are talking about Kubotas on a hill. ....

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cutter
Join Date: Feb 2000
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2002-03-30          36895

Bear with it, I get repremanded at times for being too political here. I wonder what size Bush Hog you would use on a stagger wing? ....

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Morgan
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Posts: 126 Albany, NY
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2002-03-30          36897

It would be a good idea to run a bush hog behind an airplane if you wanted to trim the tree tops all the same height. Kind of like a giant hedge trimmer for the forest. ....

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cutter
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2002-03-31          36909

Actually, when I am in the corporate Bell Ranger, we simply fly upsidedown, does a great job! ....

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Morgan
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 126 Albany, NY
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2002-03-31          36932

Yeah, it does a good job on the prop! I sure hope your props are made of something sturdy!! ....

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