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 | beagle
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 1333 Michigan 
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2005-05-17 111204
Thanks Murf for your help yesterday. Tried your suggestions, but the problem doesn't seem that straightforward - to me. With the clutch pedal depressed (disengaged) and press the hydro pedal slightly, the tractor will creep. If I depress the clutch and fully depress the hydro pedal, the tractor does NOT move, and the slight rotation at the PTO shaft will stop, allowing me to engage the pto without grinding. The load of the fully depressed hydro is enough to break the clutch hold. It would seem that if the clutch was frozen, depressing the hydro pedal fully would have the tractor moving. It feels like there is some slight engagement of the clutch with the pedal depressed, enough for slight tractor creep and pto rotation. I have taken all the free play I can out of the clutch pedal, as it is set now, when the pedal is fully depressed, the control rod touches the engine block, even shows signs of rubbing against it.
Anyone had this problem before. As I said yesterday, the tractor was used all winter for snow plowing. It didn't sit for more than two weeks without being used. I never noticed the problem until I rigged up the RFM last week to mow lawn and had trouble engaing the PTO. Murf, is this different than what you understood from my last post? This has me baffled. Looking for any ideas before I crack the tractor in half to have a peek at the pressure plate. I have too much worked lined up for this to shut me down now.
Thanks for any help.
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 | Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada 
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2005-05-18 111216
Beagle, no in fact it's sounding more & more like what I thought it might be.
The rust is causing enough friction to cause everything to drag just slightly.
Winter use is actually harder on a machine than parking it. When you run the machine it warms up, then you run it around and git covered in snow & slush, then you park it and allow everything to get covered in condensation. The result is a lot of rust on bare metal, like the clutch faces.
Now that you have it freeing up, if only slightly, do just what you did before, put the machine in forward range, push the clutch all the way down and push the hydro pedal full forward. After a few moments of this start to slowly let the clutch out to completely clean the plate and both mating surfaces. It shouldn't take long to clean it up.
As you said, the alternative is to split it and clean it manually.
Best of luck. ....
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| beagle
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 1333 Michigan
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2005-05-18 111217
Thanks Murf, I'll give it a try today. I did check the clutch housing drain, bone dry.
If what you descibed is what happened, it doesn't seem like blocking the clutch would have made any difference for this problem. The faces would have rusted faster disengaged since air and condensation would have been more available than engaged.
I'll let you know. Thanks again. ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2005-05-18 111219
You are right, they will, and do, rust faster when blocked open. However, they do not rust TOGETHER into one piece.
As soon as you move the machine and actuate the clutch a few times the rust quickly disappears, just the same thing happens with vehicle brakes also.
Best of luck. ....
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| beagle
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 1333 Michigan
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2005-05-19 111255
Played with it yesterday Murf. I don't think it was ever completely siezed together, but don't know for sure either. I have messed around with it some, but there still seems to be some engagement with the clutch pedal full down. Any harm in using it this way a while and see if it loosens up? Any damage to the pressure plate by continuing to use it, or anything else? ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2005-05-19 111258
The only real risk is that of clashing gears on engagement/disengagement.
The input shaft may have some surface rust on it, and/or accumulated rust that came off the plate stuck in the grease causing the plate to not slide freely anymore. Continued usage should help free things up. Try to use the clutch itself as much as possible for a while and see if it continues to improve.
Try letting the engine slow to an absolute idle without touching the clutch, then engage the clutch, wait a moment, then try to engage the PTO very slowly. This will limit the speed of the TX shafts spinning to the absolute slowest speed possible.
Best of luck. ....
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| beagle
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 1333 Michigan
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2005-05-19 111259
Thanks, I've developed a good procedure for smooth pto engagement. As long as I press the hydro pedal and the clutch at the same time, there is enough drag to diengage the clutch and I can change everthing smoothly. The coordination of foot movement takes a little thought.
I'm hoping a couple more hours of use will loosen things up. Is there anything I can fog the clutch housing with from the drain that would help, or am I asking for more trouble?
Thanks ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2005-05-19 111261
Other than compressed air there's nothing you can put in there that won't cause real problems.
The last thing you want on frction linings is anything that could act as a lubricant.
I take there is no access port, just a drain plug ?
Best of luck. ....
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| beagle
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 1333 Michigan
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2005-05-19 111264
Yes, there is an access port. I will need to do some searching to find out what kind of digging is necessary to get at it. It's on the side of the housing. Might be just a matter of the floor pan. I'll take a look at it.
Thanks ....
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| beagle
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 1333 Michigan
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2005-05-20 111283
Well, it's going to the dealer next week for a scheduled tear down. The CFO got involved yesterday and she's concerned about the safety issue of fully depressisng the clutch and the hydrostat pedal at the same time. Makes too much sense.
There are a lot of 7800 owners on this board, so I'll be sure to let everyone know what comes out of this. I've had garden tractors I that worked harder than I worked this 7800 with no problems. This machine has 115 hours of "babying" on it, so finding out exactly what is going on should be interesting. Stay tuned. ....
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| beagle
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 1333 Michigan
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2005-05-30 111738
Here's the results of the clutch biopsy; clutch was assembled backwards on the assembly line. The clutch plate has two sides to it, mine was assembled the wrong way causing the rivets to engage the pressure plate. The problem apparently didn't show up until the clutch was broken in. It appears that "Friday Afternoon Assembly" isn't unique to automakers. The dealer is taking care of the problem with a new clutch and pressure plate accompanied by carefull assembly. I should have it back by the end of the week...all warranty work. Thanks to all that offered ideas.
Happy tractoring will be back with the beagles in short order. ....
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 | jarndt
Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 351 Northern Virginia 
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2005-05-31 111749
WOW! That's quite a surprise coming from Kubota. I suppose everyone makes mistakes though. I'm glad to hear the dealer is taking care of the problem (an obvious warranty issue) without giving you any trouble. One has to wonder if yours was just a fluke, or if all of them assembled that day were wrong? ....
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| beagle
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 1333 Michigan
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2005-05-31 111750
The syptoms where strange enough that niether the dealer or the regional service rep. had any idea what was wrong. Wasn't the kind of problem they had seen before. I still have a hard time understanding how it could happen, but as long as it's fixed, tractor on.
The only people that don't make mistakes are the people that don't do anything. ....
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 | mc2crazy
Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 24 Near Buffalo, NY
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2005-06-01 111787
It sounds like Kubota should do a recall or TSB to find out if this is a fluke or not. How old/new is your tractor? Maybe if they looked at others with a serial number before and after yours they could determine if this is an isolated difference. ....
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 | Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2005-06-01 111788
That is a rare one! I find it hard to believe that it wasn't a problem sooner. Someone on the assembly line will be taking a hit for that one! They have the greatest control in there factories it just seems a shame for something like this to happen period although I've seen far worse. ....
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| beagle
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 1333 Michigan
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2005-06-01 111792
Unless you're really paying attention, the problem could go un-noticed for quite a while. I'm not even sure when I started having a problem. If it wasn't for the rough engagement of the PTO's, I would have never noticed it. You still have enough dis-engagement to think its fine, until you try to engage the pto's. Then you can tell somethings up, and the ptos keep spinning with the clutch dis-engaged.
I would hope this kind of a thing get's back to the right people. To think mine was the only tractor assembled incorrectly would be rediculous. I'm sure there are others out there with the same problem, either un-noticed, un-reported, or just not fixed. I could have kept using the tractor the way it was, except that it was a huge safety hazard. I even had a technique for engaging the pto's smoothly.
Hopefully the story is over for me on Friday. I should have the machine back and be up and running. ....
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| Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2005-06-01 111794
For many set-ups you couldn't depress the clutch far enough to disengage the clutch if installed backwards! After seeing Kubota's factory I do think it very well would be isolated. They have a very unique assembly line procedure that I've never seen before in this country. ....
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 | AnnBrush
Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 463 Troy OH
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2005-06-01 111841
They need to fire the engineer that designed a clutch that COULD be put in backwards, not the chap on the line getting $14 an hour. ....
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| jarndt
Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 351 Northern Virginia
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2005-06-02 111851
As an engineer myself I wholeheartedly agree. Such a design should never have seen the light of day. There are many checkpoints along the way between design and implementing a production system. Failures exist across the board. However, IMO someone making $14 responsible for performing a simple repetitive task should have the training and ability to recognize the right way and the wrong way to assemble the clutch, especially if there are only two possible orientations. On the other side of the coin, the parts probably come to the assembler all facing the same direction. He or she probably simply picked it up and put it on never thinking that it might have been upside down in the stack. Enter: the Industrial and Systems Engineer, responsible for identifiying and correcting production system problems, increasing productivity while reducing worker fatigue and boosting quality. From what I understand though, the Kubota production system is one of the best in the world. This clutch assembly mishap would be an interesting case study (of course, not for Beagle! He just wants his tractor back.) ....
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| beagle
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 1333 Michigan
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2005-06-02 111853
I am also an engineer, but the case study for me is how Kubota deals with the problem, not that it happened. I would hope that, in some way, someone other than the dealer contacts me to make sure this mess was dealt with properly. When you put the kind of $'s into these machines that we do, you take care of them. When I first brought this problem to the dealer, and to the regional service rep., they were all but accusing me of somehow abusing the tractor. I would think a follow up on the regional level would be in order.
Or at least a free hat. ....
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| beagle
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 1333 Michigan
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2005-06-04 111940
The tractor is back in the barn..no free hat. ....
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