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aemiller
Join Date: May 2004
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2004-05-16          86177

Please bear in mind that I am a total newbie when it comes to tractors. I originally was looking at getting the 2210, however, after reading some responses to previous posts, I am thinking about moving up to the 4110. It looks like I can get the 4110 WITHOUT the FEL for about the same price as the 2110 WITH the FEL. I'd just get the FEL for the 4110 in the future when I had enough cash to do so.

Looking at the John Deere website, it lists the transmission on the basic model 4110 as "Collar Shift" and "Availability Limited to Dealer Inventory ". The optional transmission listed is the Hydrostatic Transmission for $1400 more. I'm just curious if anyone has an opinion as to whether it is worth it to pay $1400 for the Hydrostatic Transmission, since I am already on a tight budget? Any info about this will be greatly appreciated.


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DRankin
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2004-05-16          86181

I have had both.

If all you want to do is use the tractor as a tug boat to pull wagons of manure.... save the money, get the collar shift.

If you expect to use the tractor for other, more complex jobs.... get the HST. You won't look back. ....

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hardwood
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2004-05-17          86186

On a tractor that size the hydro will consume too much power and your tractor won't pull much of a drawbar load. If your primary use will be mowing and other light draft work the hydro will be fine. The first compact I demo'd had a hydro, personaly I did'nt like it, so I've bought three Deere 12/12 reversers since, and would'nt even consider a hydro, just too much power loss, and too expensive. These are only my opinions, others have their reasons for liking hydros. Best of luck, Frank. ....

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Ducati996
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2004-05-17          86187

I was under the impression that Deeres HST is pretty efficient in its method of power delivery. Surpisingly less HP loss overall. In this case the 4110 w/hst is still 17 HP PTO from a 20 HP motor...pretty much identical to the gear..

If you have loader work in the future, I think you should consider buying the FEL now, as part of the package. I think you can work it into the package for some possible savings (rebates, or discount, or install waived). It tends to be more expensive after you have the machine to get attachments such as an FEL or BH.

I have the gear 4100 (replaced by the 4110) and I love the machine. I would love HST a little bit more, but I'm still happy having the machine - I havent heard a negative yet regarding these machines!

Good luck in your decision-and keep us updated

Duc

....

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DRankin
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2004-05-17          86197

I just noticed there is an ad at the top of the active topics page.

Deere is offering zero down and no interest loans. Could be the right time to get what you need all in one bundle. ....

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kwschumm
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2004-05-17          86199

There are avowed gearheads who wouldn't own a hydro. There are also gearheads who, after trying an hst wouldn't own anything else. I won't have anything but a stick in my vehicles, but went with an hst in the tractor. It all boils down to personal preference and there are a lot of threads in the archives debating this issue.

There are a few things an hst will do that a geared transmission won't. For one, they have an infinitely variable speed so you can match the speed exactly to the task at hand. With a geared transmission sometimes you might find one speed is too slow and the next is too fast. An hst will also allow you very precise positioning control. I work in and around a lot of trees and often have the need to move only an inch or two at a time without hitting a tree - this is very easy to do with a hydro, but is more difficult and error prone when you have to slip a clutch. Also, when doing a lot of back and forth loader work a hydro is faster than a collar shift type transmission.

Hydros are the biggest seller, so that would be an advantage on resale or trade.

Frank is right that you will lose a few extra hp vs. a geared transmission. So, you have to weigh the pros and cons for yourself. ....

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Murf
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2004-05-17          86202

Duc, you are confusing apples & oranges. The losses in the PTO hp. of a HST vs. a Gear TX are NOT relative to the overall loss of hp. that gets to the wheels. PTO hp. is measured with the machine standing still so the only load is the pump doing no work. Even that number is deceiving since the load on the engine doing something like bush-hogging at 5mph is higher with a HST TX than gear, so there is less hp. 'left over' to run the cutter.

Frank & Mark are right, there are significant draw-bar hp. losses with a HST TX. over a gear TX. A number of years ago our dealer brought us an HST demo unit to try out, we were at that point running relays with dump wagons, loaded one way, empty the other. The HST was put head-to-head against 5 GST's of the same model. The outcome was shocking to me, the HST was 20% slower than the GST's.

Best of luck. ....

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cherymax
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2004-05-17          86217

I just bought a 4110 hydro less than a week ago. I've also had JD hydro garden tractors as long as I can remember. In my opinion, the "loss" of a few HP is more than outweighed by the convenience and time savings the hydro provides.

If your going to be using the FEL often... hydro is the way to go. The 4110 hydro has no problem pushing the bucket fwd/into piles of gravel. The things like a big ox.

The only negative I can think of regarding the 4110 hydro is the operating noise produced by the 4110's hydro tranny. It's not terrible... just more than I expected.

Regardless... I'd never consider buying a Gear model. ....

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Murf
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2004-05-17          86219

We seem to be going in a bit of a circle here.

There are two VERY separate and distinct quantum's which are used as benchmarks to rate a (big or small) tractor's performance.

The first quantum is PTO horsepower, the difference between the outputs of two similar tractors, one gear, one hydrostatic is usually only a couple of horsepower. This is caused by the fact that the ratings are done with the tractor standing idle and it takes less energy (losses) to spin the gears than it does to drive the pump which is always working even if the tractor is standing still.

The second quantum is draw-bar horsepower; this is the measure of the pulling energy created. This is where the real losses in a hydrostatic drive system appear.

The second difference is the one that most people are unaware of when it comes to a CUT. Typically a HST is only 60% efficient. That means, for example, a 35hp CUT will typically lose 14hp just in the transmission. I hardly consider that to be neither "the "loss" of a few HP" nor inconsequential.

Those of you who have had riding mowers will know just how much work can be accomplished with 14hp.

As long as you're willing to suffer that sort of loss for the convenience, no problem. Are they handy, darn tootin', are they more than a gear unit, yes absolutely, are they better, well that's a different kettle of fish.

Best of luck.
....

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Billy
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2004-05-17          86222

Murf

"The second difference is the one that most people are unaware of when it comes to a CUT. Typically a HST is only 60% efficient. That means, for example, a 35hp CUT will typically lose 14hp just in the transmission. I hardly consider that to be neither "the "loss" of a few HP" nor inconsequential."

You're a lot smarter than I am but I'll have to disagree with that statement. I don't get my facts from any book or chart but from first hand day-to-day experience with both.

I had a JD 4600 with collar shift for 3 years and now have a JD 4610 with hydro for 2 years. There's not a nickel's worth of HP loss with the hydro. ....

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Murf
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2004-05-17          86224

Without going into a long drawn out lesson in physics, here is a quote from a University of Illinois website.

"Hydrostatic transmissions are advantageous due to being able to produce an infinite range of gear ratios, depending on the swash plate angle. The major downfall of the hydrostat is its poor efficiency, which is around 60%."

If you scroll up I mentioned in a an earlier post in this thread about the results of a head-to-head comparison between Kubota GST's and a HST of the same hp. The HST was 20% slower on average.

That would amount to a BIG nickel to me to lose 20% of my production on a yearly basis.

The average user would probably never even notice the difference, in fact my own personal machine at home is a HST and now part of my fleet is too, just not the part that does heavy draft work.

As for smart, thank you sincerly for the compliment, but I suspect you're no slouch yourself. ;->

Best of luck.
....

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Billy
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2004-05-17          86225

Yes, I read your post about GST vs HST and I'm sure your results are as stated. But, I also have done the exact same things with a gear and hydro and got the same (nickel's difference) results.

I've tilled with both tractors and I couldn't see the difference.

I will admit and the manufacturers do also, that there is a power loss from gear to HST but no way is there 40%. 10% maybe but that goes down as the HP and torque goes up.

I'm not trying to argue with ya, my friend. Just telling you what I've experienced ....

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hardwood
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2004-05-17          86242

The subject of hydro vs. gear has been hashed several times in the past, In reallity that's one of the neat things about our country, you're free to buy whatever you like best. Yes I'm pretty much a gearhead. I get much more enjoyment reading the JD tech manual for a tractor than any movie that's ever been produced, again another privledge we're blessed with living in a free country. I grew up driving grain trucks with the old two speed rear axle and no sycnchro trannys, so you had to learn to double clutch real fast or coast to a stop and start over. To this day I will not buy a pickup with and auto transmission, I just enjoy shifting gears and still catch myself double clutching and shifting without the clutch. Just my thing I guess. Frank. ....

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kwschumm
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2004-05-17          86244

I'm with ya when it comes to cars or trucks, Frank, but I really like the hydro in my tractor. My doctor has been telling me for a few years to get an automatic. He says the worst thing for lower back pain is a clutch, but I'm sticking with a stick. If I had to do a lot of in-town driving in a hilly place like SF (God forbid) I might change my mind though. ....

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cherymax
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2004-05-17          86263

Here's another article which states that the drawbar horsepower between gear/hydro is approx. 10% diff. I understand all tractors will be diff. but the 4000 TEN series is supposed to be "cutting edge" isn't it? 10% sounds like a good trade off to me.

Here's part of the article:
"A ratio of the drawbar hp to the maximum PTO hp is an indicator of the efficiency of the drive train of the tractor. Consider Test Nos. 1255 and 1257 for an IH 986 diesel with 16-speed transmission and IH hydrostatic diesel 186. These tractors have identical engines, producing approximately 105 PTO hp. However, the standard transmission 986 produces 90 drawbar hp, while the hydrodrive produces 80 drawbar hp.
The comparison of drive train efficiencies is as follows. IH 986: 90/105 = 86 percent; IH 186 hydro: 80/105 = 76 percent."

Here's the site: http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/farmmgt/05007.html
....

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DRankin
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2004-05-18          86286

The assumption here is that there is a linear relationship. If it takes 10 HP to run the transmission the power loss percentage is going to be quite different when comparing a 20 horse engine and a 100 horse engine.

I know this: It didn't matter what I loaded on my old 20 HP 4100 Gear, I could keep those wheels spinning and they would dig a hole all the way to the axles.

This is not the case with my 24 HP 4115 HST. It will stall and die if I push it into a pile of dirt too hard.

....

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kwschumm
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2004-05-18          86288

Mark, it must be those high traction radials you have that causes the stall. What tires did you have on your 4100 gear? If you had R4s your 4115 could probably spin the tires for hours :) ....

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DRankin
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2004-05-18          86289

I had radials on the 4100 too and they were about the same size.

I do suspect that I could spin the R-4's a bit easier. I might play with that idea for a while. ....

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cherymax
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2004-05-18          86315

Your right I did assume the 4000 TENs would be approx. as efficient as the tractors presented in the test. Seems to me most of the folks here are "assuming" that the CUTs are much less efficient. They might be more efficient... they might be less efficient. All I wanted to do was present an article that specifically related to the discussion at hand. The article states that the tested tractor (gear vs. HYD.) had a 10% performance diff. in draw-bar horse power. Yes, I understand these are not the tractors we have, but it's closest comparison available from a reputable source. I also came across an article, also for a reputable source, that stated hydro CUTs were 15% less efficient that gears, but I didn't post it.

Like I said: Maybe the 4000 TENs are more efficient... Maybe there less... But all I can go by is reliable documentation...

I'm just trying to offer resonable solutions... not trying to flame anyone. ....

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Murf
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2004-05-18          86316

I stand corrected.

It seems my information was correct, just not applicable to this instance, the hydro. unit they were referring to was for a high-speed vehicle and the efficiency drops as travel speed increases. Our beloved CUT's are not exactly speed demons.

I would think, after doing a little reading and research of my own, that 15% on average is proabably a pretty good guess-timate. Our own little test showed about 20% but that was at full-speed running heavily loaded, probably the worst case scenario.

Still, even at a 15% loss, that amounts to over 5hp on a 35hp unit. Of course knowing that up front you could always buy a few horsepower extra to compensate.

Best of luck. ....

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Billy
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2004-05-18          86318

Yeah Murf, these aren't Baja racers ;)

Another thing to think about and I don't know if the Kubotas are geared up like JDs...

A JD 4610, with Power Reverser, 13.6-28.4 tires and in C range 4th gear, will run 17.2 mph. The same tractor, tires and range in HST will run 16.8 mph.

That could be a small part of the reason for the 20% diff? ....

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Murf
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2004-05-18          86322

Billy, you've never seen the way my guys drive those things, LOL. I had to speak to one of them about wearing a t-shirt that said "Ride it like you STOLE it!" across the back, it was advertising for the motocross dealer he uses, but I was afraid it wouldn't go over very well with the customers.

As for the losses, I did look at all the different factors I could think of. The only things that made much sense were temperature and gearing. With a GST the operator can manually gear up & down, the HST does as it pleases. The tracotrs would actually have a 10% variance in speed between early morning (cool ambient temp.'s) and mid-afternoon (high ambient temp's).

It is all sort of moot now anyways since the profitability of the fleet is largely dictated by the sizeable amounts of revenue generated by snow removal in the winter when they would normally be parked and now my snow customers have mandated HST units in their equipment spec.'s. The extra money they pay for top-line equipment more than makes up for the losses.

Best of luck. ....

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DRankin
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2004-05-18          86335

Murf, On the speed variance, were the ground speeds faster when the oil and OAT were cool? ....

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Murf
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2004-05-19          86352

Mark, yes, the cooler we could keep the oil the better speed we got.

We even experimented with a rigged up windshield-washer system to spray water into the rad. to see if we could improve cooling. According to a tech. I spoke with yesterday his opinion was that optimum temp. for hydraulic fluid is about 250 deg. F. anything past that is just creating more losses.

I know from personal experience, my 'Bota performs a LOT better in the winter plowing snow than it does in hot weather.

As an aside, a friend is convinced that he is getting far less speed loss running 100% synthetic hydraulic fluid in his units since it doesn't react the same way at higher temperatures.

Best of luck. ....

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DRankin
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2004-05-19          86361

Is there any reason not to assume the would be a power loss of equal status throughout the entire hydraulic system? One would think the hydraulic pump would be subject to the same losses.

I have access to some technical data on hydraulic fluids, but there are at least three different viscosity numbers and I don't know which one would apply in this circumstance. We have Kinematic, Saybolt and Brookfield viscosity numbers and then we have a Viscosity Index. Any ideas?

I have been pondering your 60 percent efficiency number and I don't think it is all that far off. I already know that my tractor is only 83 percent efficient delivering power just to the PTO if it looses another 15 percent getting power to the wheels (think of all those compounded transmission gears) and then you add in the HST losses....

Gee. 40 percent loss doesn't sound all that bad. Maybe one of our participating dealers has a dyno that measures what we really get at the wheels......

I have an e-mail in to Deere Tech asking the viscosity/hot weather question, specifically regular vs. Low Vis fluid at 110 degrees. I will let you know what they say.
....

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Murf
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2004-05-19          86368

Mark, the viscosity numbers are just aritrary numbers to describe the level of viscosity, as long as you know which method and stick with it consistantly. It's like the temperature, it doesn't matter in its in Centigrade, Farenheit or Kelvin, it's just a number.

As for what you are running, I would think that you would be looking for a THICKER fluid to run at 110 deg. not thinner. One of the big benefits of synthetic fluids are their ability to hold a set viscosity across a broad range of temperatures.

Best of luck. ....

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aemiller
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2004-05-19          86377

Thanks so much for everyone's responses.

Since our property is still pretty wooded which will require lots of stop and go and obstacle course driving I think I'm going for the hydro transmission. The dealer we are talking to says he can get that for $1000 more. I'm slowly inching past my budget but I plan on keeping this thing for the next 20 years (I hope) so I figure I should spend the extra bucks now. ....

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cherymax
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2004-05-19          86389

Aemiller,
I've had the 4110 hydro w/FEL,R4 tires for a week. I've dug a 15' x 20' 4-6" deep "hole", moved 20 ton of crush-n-run, and I am currently working on a 80 ton pile of top soil.

Anywho... regardless of the theoretical losses that are being beat to death here... the 4110 hydro is more than up to the task. I don't think you'll be disappointed. ....

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DRankin
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2004-05-20          86447

Side Note: My new Kubota RTV has two oil filters on the HST, as opposed to an oil screen and a filter.

At the base of each of the filters is a manifold connected to the radiator which supplies coolant to the device.

An interesting way to regulate the HST oil temp, eh? ....

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DennoAce
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2004-05-25          86831

I think the man just wanted an opinion not (another) debate on hyd/gear power loss... :)

Having just bought a new 4110gear, my personal reasons were mostly about money. Since the gear is going obsolete in this model, you may be able to swing a sweet deal such as I think I did WITH the FEL. ($11.5k with 410 loader)

Hydros are definately nice when they work, but the gears will ALWAYS work and are simple to work on. If you are in no hurry to get things done (I think most of us can honestly say these little toys are mostly just that...toys) then I would put the money for a hydro towards a loader if you are on a budget. If money is no object, hydro is definately sweet, despite the small power loss.

You also get a foot throttle and no oil cooler to mess with, and no hydro pedals to adjust for neutral. ....

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bigpete
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2004-05-27          87065

Sheesh...Wow...all that... I just read the whole thread and have a bit of a headache now. I shouldn't try to absorb all this heady stuff in one sitting.

Bottom line for me, and what appears to be the majority (based in sales) of owners of the smaller frame CUTS is the convenience, comfort, and power still associated with the HST. If somebody were doing consistent or serious draft work, they wouldn't/shouldn't be buying a 4110 anyway. In addition, If I needed to put more power to the ground, I would NOT buy a 4110 gear to replace my 4110 HST. I would buy a 4210/4310 HST to replace my 4110 HST. Personally, I like having a free hand to wave at the pretty girls driving past my house on their way to the beach :~) ....

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DRankin
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2004-05-27          87069

Well spoken. There is a difference between a CUT and a UT. ....

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Chief
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2004-05-29          87218

I would have to second Mark and Pete. They are on the right track! ;o) ....

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DRankin
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2004-05-29          87230

Chief, Where have you been? Out playing with the boat?

Good to have you back. ....

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Chief
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2004-05-29          87233

I am selling the boat but I have been emersed in the purchase of a farm that I finally got closed on this week Thursday. Just under 314 acres. It is a gorgeous place! ....

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Chief
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2004-05-29          87234

Thanks for asking! It is good to be back posting again. I tried to keep up here and there but the negotiations and research was so time consuming. ....

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Chief
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2004-05-29          87235

By the way, I have a similar problem with snakes on the new farm but mine are copperheads. The ticks are outrageous too! ....

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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2004-05-29          87237

It is good to have you back! You need to post some of those pictures. ....

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lucerne
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 192 Lucerne Maine
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2004-05-29          87238

314 acres in an area with year round decent weather, good soil, god favors you Chief. ....

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DK35vince
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 689 Western,Pa.
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2004-05-29          87240

314 acres !!!
Your goin to need a bigger tractor !! ....

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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2004-05-30          87261

When somebody asks I will tell them you bought the farm. ....

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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2004-05-30          87264

Literally! ;o) ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2004-05-31          87325

Hang on a minute, back that thing up a minute.....

What do you mean SELL THE BOAT!!!!!!!

You have a creek now, a little digging and a small dam and I'm sure you can get her floating..... LOL.

Now if you're using the money from the boat to buy a bigger tractor, well maybe that's justifiable, but just barely.

Best of luck. ....

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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2004-05-31          87327

Yeah Murf, sad to say the boat is up for sale. The kids have so many different activities that they are just not very interested anymore. Mom has to take them to the various activities and that take her out of the boating equation too. Figured I would pay off the tractor with a sale of the boat. Maybe in the future we may have another. ....

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