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 | ROBOHA
Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 38 FOREST HILL MARYLAND 
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2004-03-24 80999
my dealer told me to fill it with concrete do you guys agree
or is there something better? roboha
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 | kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon 
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2004-03-24 81000
I don't know if there's something better, but a lot of guys use concrete. If you go that route one good trick is to put a piece or two PVC pipe in the box before filling it up. This gives you a good place to stick shovels or long handled tools for hauling around. You could also insert a few shorter pieces of pipe for carrying wrenches, hammers, clippers and trimmers, etc. Actually, it would probably make sense to embed a couple of J-bolts in the top of it and bolt a toolbox to it. ....
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 | shortmagnum
Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 848 Wisconsin 
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2004-03-24 81004
If you have any scrap steel to put in before pouring the concrete it will increase the density. I have to make one this spring too and I plan on starting with my old Road Runner's 383 engine block that has been sitting outside for 25 years. Hopefully it won't be too tall.
Dave ....
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 | Chuck Westerfield
Join Date: Posts: 1
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2004-03-24 81007
I filled mine with scrap steel parts...my thoughts were that I could empty if I wanted to sell or transport. Use an I match hitch set up for quick coupling. Also scrap steel may be heavier than concrete but don't really know. ....
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 | Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2004-03-25 81068
Speaking of sticking things in the concrete.
If you buy one of those cheap $5 chainsaw bar covers (with a piece of plywood in it to keep the shape) and stick that vertically in the wet concrete then put a few links of light chain on each side it makes a really dandy, and secure, way to carry a chainsaw too. A bungee cord over the top through the handle hooked to the chain links holds it from bouncing.
Best of luck. ....
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| ROBOHA
Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 38 FOREST HILL MARYLAND
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2004-03-26 81227
Thanks for the tips i really like the pvc pipe for thr hand tools great idea. well i just got her today so let the games begin:) roboha ....
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 | DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2004-03-26 81243
How do you drain the rain water out of those pipes and slots? ....
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| kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2004-03-26 81244
You could drill a hole in the bottom, but why would a little rain matter? If it freezes it will expand out the top. But maybe I'm missing something. ....
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| kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2004-03-26 81245
On second thought it's probably best to keep the water out, if for no other reason than to deny mosquitos a place to breed. You could leave the PVC sticking up a couple of inches and just leave a PVC pipe cap on the end when you're not using it. ....
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| DennoAce
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 105 usa
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2004-03-26 81246
Yup, I too have yet to fill my new 4110 box with weight and you guys are reading my mind. My plan is to load some steel in it (definately heavier than concrete) and then top her off with cement, and I was also thinking of throwing some bolts in it to mount a tool box on top. I do like that PVC idea also...never thought of that.
When I tried it out first time, with zero weight in the box, I really rounded the bucket - about 2 feet over the top with wet snow and she actually felt fine and steered fine as well, in soft muddy gravel to boot. (thinking back to an earlier 4110 steering problem thread I was involved in...cough cough)
I personally am thinking I want to end up with about 800# in that box and it won't be a problem with the cast iron I will be putting in. I want as little stress on that front axle as possible. Then again, I don't want to stress the rear for no reason either. I plan to load up the steel and then test her out, see how she feels and how much the rear tires squat (want just a little). ....
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| gdillard
Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 7 Meansville, GA
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2004-03-26 81247
Had same concern with rear weight. Did not want to bother
with a box or weights to either haul around all the time
or put on & take off. Tried the old remedy of water & antifreeze in rear tires. Works great! Rear end has never
come off the ground in over three years even with a fully
loaded bucket. Cost is almost nothing, plus you are not
actually adding weight to haul around. The water simply stays in the bottom of the tire all the time. Tried adding weights of different sorts, but was plain frustrating because of them shifting out of position. ....
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| DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2004-03-26 81250
It wouldn't be a big deal to stick your shovel handle into a pipe filled with water but that doesn't sound like a good idea with the chain saw. ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2004-03-29 81481
Mine doesn't fill with water..... mind you it seldom rains in the shop.
If it gets a little 'fresh water rinse' while out working in the bush a little blast of compressed air does the trick.
Best of luck. ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2004-03-29 81482
gdillard, I'm confused, you said "...plus you are not
actually adding weight to haul around. The water simply stays in the bottom of the tire all the time."
How is it possible that you are not "adding weight to haul around" if it is there in the tires all the time ???
I beleive the point of a ballast box is to be able to add and remove the weight quickly as the need requires. That way, for instance, if you have some work to do on a delicate surface, like turf, you can drop the excess weight and 'tread lightly'.
Best of luck. ....
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| gdillard
Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 7 Meansville, GA
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2004-03-30 81564
When I say you are not adding weight, I mean for the tractor to haul around. The only energy the tractor is using is the small amount it takes to overcome inertia to get the tractor moving & keep it moving. The water simply stays mostly in the bottom part of the tire while the tire goes around. You also escape the possibility of injury by not having to bother with a very heavy ballast box and having to store it somewhere. Of course, if you were to weigh the tractor it will weigh more and you definitely will be hauling more weight if you plan to put the tractor on a trailer and take it somewhere. Hope this helps. Works great for me, but may not be for everyone. ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2004-03-30 81590
gdillard, one of us is confused a little, and I 'm NOT saying it isn't me, but.....
If a tractor (as loaded) weighs 3,000 pounds, it doesn't matter where that weight is located, you are still moving 3,000 pounds, period.
I think you are confusing another aspect of weight distribution, one which does not apply to a tractor. That is the concept of 'sprung' and 'unsprung' weight. In a vehicle you want to keep the amount of weight that is NOT sitting on the suspension to a minimum. This is for reasons such as suspension and handling. As Isaid, it does not apply to a tractor.
I agree it is easier to have the 3pth free sometimes, but then there are pobably times when having a lighter tractor is handy too.
Best of luck. ....
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| gdillard01
Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 5 Meansville, GA
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2004-03-30 81594
Dear Murf,
I may be the most confused here, but think about this analogy. Take a 55 gal drum and put enough water in it to fill it to about one third. Now lay the drum down and roll it 30 or 40 feet. Doesn't require a tremendous amount of effort. Next, pick up the drum and carry it the same distance. I believe carrying it requires a great deal more effort because you are loaded with 100% of the weight all the time (like hauling around a ballast box). This may be a poor analogy, and may not be a good comparison. Don't know for sure, but was just trying to help. Any way, good luck to all. ....
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| ROBOHA
Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 38 FOREST HILL MARYLAND
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2004-03-31 81729
why would anyone want to carry extra weight around when it is not needed. the balast box was designed to remove as soon as your loader work is finished! I think thats is common sence what do you think> ....
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| kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2004-03-31 81733
Not sure about the 4110, but many tractors require ballast whenever the loader is installed. For example, the 430 loader on my JD 4310 requires 1300 lbs of ballast on the 3-point whenever the loader is installed. Not sure, but I don't think you're gonna get that kind of weight with a ballast box anyway. ....
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| JAZAK5
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 276 coxsackie,ny
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2004-03-31 81738
I STORE ALL MY CHAINS AND TIRE CHAINS IN MY BALLAST BOX AND WELDED 4 SWIVLE 300 LB CASTORS ON THE BOTTOM. DROP THE BOX ON THE GARRAGE FLOOR AND ROLL IT INTO THE CORNER.
WENT TO THE LOCAL SCALES AND THE BOX WEIGHED IN AT 782LBS ENOUGH FOR ANYTHING I HAVE DONE TO DATE. ....
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 | bigpete
Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 117 Delaware
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2004-03-31 81740
Ballast is just as important on a 4110 as as any other tractor with a loader. The very design of tractors, as we know them, typically calls for the rear axles to take about 60% of the total distributed weight of the machine, its rider, and its payload. A properly engineered tractor is balanced to its most stable weight ratio without any weight on the front or rear. Add more balanced weight and lower the center of gravity and the tractor becomes more stable. Shift too much distributed weight foreward or rearward, or raise the center of gravity, and the machine becomes less stable. Of course there is a considerable tolerance for variation of the 60/40 ratio, but the bottom line is that every added pound of weight to one axle or the other should be matched on the other axle within a reasonable range. Of course there are other dynamics, such as the vertical and horizontal distance of the added load or counterbalance from the axle. This is why tractor companies provide us guidance in determining how much ballast to add to the rear hitch or in the wheels for added weight to the front. Common sense tells us that 1,000 added pounds in the loader will require more than 1,000 pounds of added counter weight at or near the rear axle simply because the loader weight is carried so far foreward of the front axle--leverage.
As to advantages and disadvantages of types of ballast or counterweight, you guys have hit them for the most part. For most "domestic" work, a counterbalance of a box blade with added weight or a ballast box will do the trick for smaller tractors. Filled tires is a better method of "carrying" ballast because it does not add additional weight to the axles and bearings of the wheels. In other words, there is no additional "down pressure" on the rear axle, but there is added resistance to the upward lifting forces of added weight to the front of the tractor. There are forces of inertia to overcome when redirecting engine forces to turn the wheels, or applying braking forces to slow down the wheels, but those are insignificant for this consideration. The down side to wheel balast is that it is not easy to remove when you wnat to tread lightly. To each his own, as long as there is enough weigh there. Since I mow and do non-loader work most of the time, I use my 400 pound box blade with 504 pounds of suitacse weights for most loader work. I run out of payload volume for most materials, even rock, before I become unstable with 900+ pounds hanging off the back of my 4110. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2004-04-01 81772
It's probably worth saying that weight from fluid fill isn't added to load carried on the tractor frame, but it also doesn't change the tractor balance either unless the rear wheels come off the ground. It may keep the rear wheels on the ground when heavy weight is in the loader but it doesn't lighten load on the front axle like 3ph weight does.
Far as I know the rolling drum analogy is fine as far as it goes but I don't think the conclusion should be that it takes only negligible work to move tire ballast around. In addition to the theoretical acceleration vectors every time ground speed changes, there are a bunch of losses. Fluid sloshes around in the tires and there are additions to the rotated weight. In practice it's likely best to use both wheel and 3ph weight than relying on either one alone. ....
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| hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 3583 iowa
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2004-04-01 81775
I chose a box blade for ballast because it can do things other than provide weight, but this has been a few years ago and with todays rampant price increses maybe it's just not an economic choice now. Keep smileng, Frank. ....
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| DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2004-04-01 81782
Take your water filled barrel and push it up a hill. Then tell me how little energy it took to get it up there, if your toes survive intact. ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2004-04-01 81787
gdillard, your analogy is correct, if not applicable to this instance.
In the case of 3pth weight compared to tire filling, the energy consumed to push it forward is the same for equal weights.
In your analogy you are "comparing apples to oranges", since you are mentioning rolling the drum to CARRYING the drum to move it forward. If in your analogy you had reduced the effort required to get the drum in the air and keep it there, yes, the force required to move it forwards WOULD BE almost the same, save rolling resistance, etc.
Besides, as TomG mentioned, one of the reasons for ballasting the frame (or 3pth) over the tires is to reduce the weight on the front axle and tires, filling the back tires won't do that, in fact it can ADD weight to the front end.
Best of luck. ....
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| DennoAce
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 105 usa
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2004-04-03 81983
Well, I just love these debates. This one is currently of interest to me because right after this, I am going out to fill my new 4110 box with some steel that i got yesterday. These are old "hammers" from the mill I used to work at and they weigh about 80# each. I was planning on putting maybe 6-8 of them in the box and then topping it off with concrete to get my weight around 600-900# (have to experiment with it before I pour the concrete).
A large reason for this is becasue I definately want weight off that little front axle which is impossible with loaded tires.
However, I was also thinking of putting SOME ballast in the rear tires just because when doing other work like say tilling new soil, etc...it is nice to give the rear some weight to help pull and it is hard to have a tiller or ripper on the hitch and a weight box at the same time.
There is certainly a difference between weight in the tires and on the tractor, but let's not forget that there is still extra stress on the driveline/splines/etc to roll and stop this weight. For an example fill your rear tires with lead and see how long your brakes last.
I would like to know from those who know about the calcium/BallastStar/Washer Fluid/Antifreeze options. I know calcium is tried and true but can ruin rims and be a mess. This new stuff is supposed to be great but it costs $$. Im thinking the washer fluid will be one hell of a mess after a while. Are there any downfalls to the antifreeze/water mix idea? And what is the trick to getting it in there anyway without a pump?
....
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| gdillard01
Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 5 Meansville, GA
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2004-04-03 81995
Dear DennoAce,
Getting the water & antifreeze in without a pump is not very hard. There is a valve (cost under $10) that screws onto the water hose and threads onto the valve stem of the tire. Place the tire so the valve stem is at 12:00, remove the valve core to reduce air pressure. I poured the antifreeze into the hose (hardest part) before hooking up to the water source and let the water pressure push the water and antifreeze in. Replace valve core and maintain normal air pressure. There might be a much easier and better way to do this, but it worked for me and was very inexpensive. Hope this helps. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2004-04-04 82067
I've heard of people using the $10 valve gadget plus an equally inexpensive hand drill motor pump so the pouring is easier.
I don't know if Ballast Star is a similar product to Rim guard, which is derived from beet pulp. It's supposed to be non-corrosive, good at fairly low temperatures and have good weight per volume but also is expensive. I don't know if there are any disposal problems but there are for most other fill fluids.
I'm not sure if CACL outweighs Rim Guard but it does outweigh most other alternatives. I hear that some of the newer foam fill products give better rides than the old stuff but I doubt that foam filling would be desirable except on ground where flat tires are very common. Foam is heavy though. ....
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| DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2004-04-04 82082
I still like my "iron" antifreeze the best. ....
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| DennoAce
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 105 usa
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2004-04-04 82109
hehe yes i currently have my iron and concrete antifreeze in my ballast box. im guessing about 800# which i think is plenty. I dont want to stress the rear too much either.
thanks guys for the tips i was not aware of this adaptor valve and probably would have done my usual mcgyver rigging and done it my hard way. i still wonder about antifreeze or washer fluid getting all bubbly or foamy/etc rolling around like that though. although antifreeze certainly goes through its paces in an engine, right? hmmm...
....
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