Go Bottom4110 410 loader hydraulic question
 | DennoAce
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 105 usa 
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2004-01-31 75544
Hi all...my first post:
I am seriously considering a 4110gear w/410 loader ($13k with weight box on special). Along with everyone else, I am having trouble deciding many things as far as competition (also looking at MF since I like shuttle shift) and would very much like some advice from those who own or know this tractor regarding these issues:
- Can the loader functions be used simultaniously (i.e. lift and dump same time)? This would be a big downfall if not since I am used to operating heavy equipment.
- Would the H-L-N-R lever be realistically used as a "shuttle" from forward to reverse or is it not designed this way? I do a lot of loader work, and again am used to forward-reverse up near the wheel. I am just picturing maybe keeping it in 3rd gear low or 1st gear high much of the time and going from H or L to R a lot thus simulating a shuttle.
- Is the top link all-in-one casting with the rear diff. a weak point? I get the impression it may be. I plan to have this for many years and possibly build my own hoe for this some day, since they are way too expensive, as well as using PHD at some point.
- How would this Yanmar engine start on -20 degree Maine morning without a block heater (would use one normally...but just in case)
- Any other known problems/weaknesses/etc with this model?
- Does $13k with 410 fel and ballast box sound like a decent deal?
Thanks a lot :)
ps I really don't think I want a hydro model although I know it would be ideal for loader work I just don't care for it maintenance-wise, price-wise and long-term wise (in 10-20 years when the clutch wears out I can replace it and go back to work, but when the hydro tranny breaks..you are at the mercy of dealer it seems to me)
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 | Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee 
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2004-01-31 75554
DennoAce, would suggest the hydro if you have FEL work in mind. It is just a better all round system.
Yes FEL functions can be use simultaniously.
The 4110 does not have an HLR clutch pack type trans. like JD 450 does. Just high and low and no it cannot be used as a reverser like an HLR. The shift is simply a H & L range shift. The trans is a collar shift for the gear trans and HST for the hdyro.
This tractor would be marginal for a hoe and a SMALL PHD would work but not very well. I would suggest the 4115 or 4310 for this use.
I know of no issue concern top link weakness. Maybe some others on the board can speak to that.
Yanmars are good starters in cold weather. They use a glow plug preheat system.
Other than being a bit low on hp. The 4110 is a very good tractor for the use it was designed for.
You may want to look at a 4115 or 4310 especially if you plan on using a PHD. Get the down pressure kit with the PHD.
Below is a link to the 4110 specs. ....
Link: click here
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| Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2004-01-31 75555
Here is a link to give you an idea of reasonable pricing. You can make better deals than these prices but they are not bad.
Hope this addresses all of your questions. ;o) Gotta give me some time to think! ;o) ....
Link: click here
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 | kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2004-01-31 75556
A lot of questions!
If the 410 loader is like my 430 loader, yes you can lift and dump at the same time. After a bit of use you develop a feel for it. A quick test drive at your dealer will verify the 4110/410 behavior.
Can't answer the gear/shuttle questions.
The top link casting doesn't seem to be a big issue. I've never heard of anyone breaking one on any of the 4000 series tractors. With the relatively low lift capacity I doubt it would be an issue.
The Yanmars seem to start just fine in cold weather. I'd opt for a block heater in your part of the country, and of course you need to make sure your fuel is treated properly for the cold weather.
Prices vary a lot in different areas of the country and depend on the dealer and whether a model is selling hot or cold. One good way to determine a fair price is to go to the Deere website and build&price your machine. That will give you the retail price. A rule of thumb seems to be you should be able to get at least 10% off list and maybe as much as 20%. You can ask the dealer to throw in things to sweeten the pot as well, such as free 50 hour service or free pickup and delivery for service or free fluids and filters. Of course you need to make sure they give you hats :)
The hydros are extremely reliable. My impression is that more people have to replace clutches than repair hydro trannies. ....
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| kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2004-01-31 75559
Where are my manners? I forgot to welcome you to the forum.
Welcome to TractorPoint DennoAce! When you buy be sure to post your pictures. We all like pictures here :)
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| DennoAce
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 105 usa
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2004-01-31 75561
well thanks a lot guys for the help. I was a little impatient, sorry! :)
Chief, I get what you are saying about not being able to "shuttle" from F-R like a real shuttle trans, but what I mean is it still seems a lot easier than say a 790 with just a gear shift...with the 4110 I can just stop, push clutch and go into reverse, then back to forward (low or high) with the same H-L-N-R lever, while keeping the 4-spd trans in say...2nd gear the whole time. Maybe that is not realistic and of course I will go play with the machine to see how it feels before I buy one but just wondering what you guys think on that type of use of the "auxillary" trans as I would call it. (the H-L-N-R) ....
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 | blizzard
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 282 Central Maine
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2004-01-31 75565
Welcome DennoAce,
I don't have a Deere, but if you mention the proposed use(s) for your Compact Utility Tractor, I'm sure the members will be happy to relate their experiences and opinions.
By the way, if you're near Waterville, I had good experiences at Hammond's.
Be sure to test drive before making any final decisions.
(Will it ever warm up? Guess we had our January Thaw in December!)
bliz ....
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| DennoAce
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 105 usa
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2004-01-31 75566
well thanks blizzard, isn't it fun living in maine?
My uses would be pretty typical, with 14 acres and a 600' gravel driveway: General dubbin', Snow management, garden, building trails, hauling wood, etc etc etc ... The thing is I run heavy equipment for a living and am very used to shifting a lever to the left of the wheel for forward-reverse and find it very awkward otherwise, such as with my little 15hp satoh beaver with loader which has just a 3spd trans with H-L. This is one reason am consider Massey as well...they seem to be the only one (other than Kioti) who offer a true shuttle on a budget-type tractor. The L3130 Kubota has it I guess but I don't have a good feeling about Kubota for some reason.
I am still leary of the hydro maintenance/longevity-wise but maybe I should reconsider. It does seem awful handy to be able to have infinate range.
ps I did go to Hammond in Fairfield and actually the price for a 4110 I was quoted was quite a bit higher than the deal they have right now at Chad Little (Brunswick) in Uncle Henry's a 4110gear with loader for $13k
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| kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2004-01-31 75568
Kubota makes a good machine but I went with Deere because it just felt better to me (joystick, pedals, seating position, etc).
You're right that the hydro has more maintenance than the gear. You'll need to do regular fluid and filter changes.
The infinite range, though, is awesome. A few folks have complained about the two-range limitation on some machines and I can see how it would be less than optimal in some circumstances.
The 4210-4710s have eHydro trannies which have some features you might find useful. I particularly like the LoadMatch feature. It modulates the transmission so you really can't stall the engine with it when shoving into a pile or climbing a steep hill, regardless of the range you find yourself in. I don't think you can get the eHydro on the 4110-4115 tractors. ....
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| DennoAce
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 105 usa
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2004-01-31 75572
thanks for the replies. Talk about options! With so many brands and tranny/other options...it's worse than buying a new vehicle!
I am still on fence re: hydro vs. gear...i see advantages to both! arrgg
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| Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2004-01-31 75573
For the most part, I think you will find the hydro transmissions pretty stout and bullet proof. Anything can break but these rarely do.
Even the JD 750/755 and 850/855 are hydro and have been for over 20 years.
Go try out a HST and then an eHydro and see what you think. ....
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| blizzard
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 282 Central Maine
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2004-01-31 75574
I felt I paid a 'reasonable' but not lowest price for my setup last August.
The dealer I bought from was by far the closest, and that was a major factor in buying there.
I like the hydro too, can't imagine getting out of some of the predicaments I've been in without it (:>
If you search the older messages on 'hydro' you'll find a LOT of info. I'd guess 75% prefer hydro for general 'utility' use.
bliz ....
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 | harvey
Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 1550 Moravia, NY 
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2004-01-31 75575
Dennoace I saw this this morning but had chores to do and knew this would be a kinda long reply.
I also operate heavy equipment, loaders up to the 980G cats, excavators up thru the 330 cats, both of the above are all electronic, all the old loaders down to the old trojans with detroits and old 220 excavators, and heavy trucks.
The problem I see with equipment operators moving onto a hydro is: as I lean into the stock pile I start adding a certian amount of fuel and start the bucket load process all the while adding fuel if as need it.
That said: a friend in this business bought a 4100 hydro and felt it was almost like a loader because the brakes are on the left and fwd pedal on the right he says he is getting the hang of it but he's had it over a year now.
The hydro works backwards you have to let up to add forward power. I know I'd be screwed. Right foot has always gone down to add power except for decelerators on dozers. But for some reason that has never been a big issue but I do mess that up after many hours in the seat and I get tired.
It's like getting on a backwards JD hoe after operating others. You'll have to relearn how or change the plumbing so its correct as industry standard is.
I have a JD 4400 syncro shift and it is very smooth in the stock pile. I only have to change a gear to move into pile then back to original gear and I'm on my way. I use the same range when using the loader. Changing the gear only takes a heartbeat to accomplish. I usually do not evn think about the fwd/rev handle, its automatic after all these years. If a hydro moves 3 more buckets in an hour so be it. I'll stick with the gears.
Good luck in your quest Harvey ....
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 | bigpete
Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 117 Delaware
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2004-01-31 75578
Hi, DennoAce. Welcome. I just posted about taking delivery of a 4110, but it's an HST model so I cannot help you with your tranny questions. Besides, I only have 1.2 hours on it as of today. I know you are not inviting a discussion about hydrostats versus gear trannys, but I think hydrostats are so well-engineered these days that your concern about 15 to 20 years down the road may be a bit of over-worry. Besides, who keeps their compact tractors for 20 years anymore? Just my opinion, and I can't argue that there is nothing more bullet-proof than a gear tranny. Just kidding about the 20 year thing. You are right that you should be able to use a CUT for that long. I think the hydro will last, too.
As far as the backhoe, you just got the advice I would give. The 46 backhoe for the 4110 and 4115 does not stress the toplink hinge becasue it is a true subframe backhoe. Mark Hunstiger is your best source of info on a backhoe on a 4115. I think he used to have a 4100, too. Anyway, if you intend to build a backhoe later on it would be most advisable to imitate what the Deere engineeres think is best for this model. As far as your price, can't help much there either. I got my 4110 HST w/ 410 loader, 53" bucket w/custom hooks and level indicator, 60" deck with mulching kit, block heater, rear work light, front qucik hitch and angling bracket (I already have the snow plow moldboard), and a 5-foot United HD box blade for a net cost of about $15,900. I moved up to the 4110 on a warranty issue with my 2210. I got a pretty good deal, I think. ....
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| DennoAce
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 105 usa
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2004-01-31 75583
well guys thanks once again for the advice.
I did assume the hydro pressure increased as you push down, not the opposite like a decel. on a dozer. Is this the case? It would make no sense to have to push down to the floor to crawl. ....
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| DK35vince
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 689 Western,Pa. 
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2004-01-31 75585
DennoAce,
The hydros I have run the farther you push the peddle down the faster you go but the less pulling power you will have.
The less you push the peddle down the slower you will go but you increase your pulling power.
In other words if you are running out of power, pushing the peddle down only makes it worse,to increase your power you actually leave the peddle up.
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 | Ducati996
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 347 New York
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2004-01-31 75586
DennoAce,
I have a 4100 gear which is the earlier version of the 4110
you have chosen. The spec's are almost identical between the two. I love my gear but the hydro is better, and since you will be buying new dont miss out on this key feature.
It can load and dump at the same time, but the shifting is always done at a full stop. You can fan the clutch at times and switch your speed gears while on the fly, but it isnt really designed for it all the time. If the machine is under load, you will not be able to switch range or gear unless the load is off drivetrain first.
For loader work on this machine the HST is the better fit. Since this unit does not have the more advanced shuttle shift option found on the larger machines, the HST is the better feature over gear on this machine.
The only limitaions on this machine is using beyond the capabilites it was designed for. I fear since you have used larger more capable machines on a regular basis, you have higher expectations than what this machine can give.
Stay within its capabilities and it will never let you down..
Also your PTO 's (rear and Mid) are independent of each other but not the clutch. You engage the clutch, you
disengage your PTO driven implement..Every time you engage the clutch you lose the engine breaking capability which requires quick footwork between break & clutch and gears so you dont roll free fall wise...HST eliminates this scary scene alltogether.
Overall you save a few dollars between gear and HST, and in my opinion its not worth saving the few dollars...
I love my gear in closing, and since I didnt buy it factory new I'm happy with the choice. However when the day comes of ordering a new machine, "HST" is the first thing i spill out of my vocal chords :)
Ducati
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| DennoAce
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 105 usa
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2004-01-31 75592
well thanks you guys for the hydro info and ducati for the first-hand account. this may have helped me prevent a mistake in buying a gear model. i will try them both and see which feels right.
thanks again
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| Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2004-01-31 75599
Good luck with the demo! Come back and post your impressions and comments. I think we would all be interested in hearing what decision you arrive at. You will probably have more questions anyway. Take your time and demo the machinery and ask the questions. Best not to make a hasty decision and wish you had gone another route. ....
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 | Wildman1
Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 196 Chugiak, Alaska
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2004-02-01 75637
Denoace..welcome. I just have to put my 2cW in on the issue of durability. I wondered about the same thing and studied the engineering & design of HST systems. Assuming that the fluid is clean and no manufacturing defects, it looks like there are no significant wear issues with the hydro's, unlike a clutch. I believe you'd end up paying more in clutches over the life of the machine than repairs to a typical HST.
Also, the engine and drivetrain receive less "shock" with a hydro system than a clutch transmits. You also have an infinite speed range with the hydro's. I've found that to be a real plus. And the convenience and ease of use is a no brainer.
On the drag strip it's the guys with the "sticks" that break things more than the autotrans guys.
Personally, having run the geared tractors a fair amount, I don't look back. ....
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| DennoAce
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 105 usa
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2004-02-01 75653
thanks again all ....
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 | wigglybridge
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 82 Vermont
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2004-02-03 75886
Denno,
Most of what little I know about tractors I learned here, but I did just buy a 4110 gear in November, so I'll say a few words about the machine. Our acreage and driveways are almost identical, I do my own wood, etc.
I have found the shift easy to use in manner you describe. I tend to leave it in 2nd and shift between either of the forward gears and reverse depending on the job. So that part I think is fairly straightforward, although as has been pointed out, it's a tradeoff between gear/hst for torque/ease.
I have not had any difficulty with snow removal here in Vermont with this machine. I got a 3pt blower and leave the bucket on, it's awesome for snow. Although I learned a *huge* amount to help me make my decision from Mark's posts, I must disagree on the blower -- I've experienced no problems whatever with the gear, and in fact, on this model it works better, because cruise control doesn't work in reverse. So you'd look like a pretzel trying to run that blower with hst, but with the gear, I just set it and can pay full attention to the hitch and steering. It shows no sign of bogging down in deep packed banks, and only a little even after they've frozen up after a week.
You know the answer: do the demo! ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2004-02-03 75893
Being a gear-head myself (with four reverses) I never thought about the lack of cruise control in reverse on some HST's. I can see that it'd be a problem.
I always thought HST's might be better since they can go much slower than even my lowest reverse of .8 mph at pro rpm. In very deep snow even .8 mph is too fast. There's usually enough HP but the problem is that the fan can't keep up with the auger. Well, this small problem only happens in around 3' of snow may be more the blower than the TX. ....
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| wigglybridge
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 82 Vermont
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2004-02-04 75935
One thing I forgot, and clarification on the snowblower.
The 4110 low reverse is only .6 mph, quite a bit slower than the .8 Tom has, so that may be part of the equation. Also, I intentionally bought a narrow blower (54"), mostly so that I could work some very tight areas around the house, but also because I was scared of it bogging down in big snow. I am VERY happy with that decision, and don't miss the extra width even a little bit.
On the block heater: no question, get it!!! Some of the dealers here (I worked with 3) said I didn't need it, my neighbor with a 4100 said "get it". I listened to my neighbor, and man am I glad. Without it the machine starts very reluctantly even at 10F. With it, it starts no question and much more smoothly, which I think must be worth something over 10 years of use.
Once again, I want to reiterate my thanks and respect to Mark and Tom, both of whose posts were especially helpful to making my decision. Thanks to the whole crew here, and Dennis for keeping us happening! ....
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| Darrel
Join Date: Posts: 1
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2004-02-04 75956
There is nothing better than a Hydrostatic transmission for ease of use. The only reason to buy the gear transmission is lower price. However in the case of the 4110 Gear transmision, you are also giving up the live PTO. If you don't want to spend the extra money to move up to the 4100 hydro, look at the JD 2210. It has more hp than the 4110 and cost less. It does have smaller tires and no cruise control, but a really nice tractor for the money. As for maintanence... The hydro is not much different than a gear, and I believe them to be more reliable. Hope this helps. ....
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| MYbota
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 2 Latrobe,Pennsylvania
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2004-02-06 76202
Denno,I also must agree with the ease of use with the HST. My Kubota B2410 has a FEL and I pull a 6ft. finish mower in grass season and a 6ft. scraper blade in snow season and I love the HST. I too operate full size backhoes,graders & loaders that use shuttle type trannies ,which are fine, but you can't beat the hydro on my tractor; especially for loader work. It's a lot easier inching in & out in precarious situations. Just thought you might like another opinion. ....
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| DennoAce
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 105 usa
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2004-02-07 76224
Well all I surely do love these comments and experiences. I am STILL thinking the pros/cons over and will probably head down to the dealer one of these weekends soon.
I have looked at the 2210 and a local dealer just has it on special now for a sweet price ($11.5 w/FEL and other extras), but I think this one is a little small for me plus I cannot get over the fact that it has no turning brakes, which for me says this is not a utility tractor, but a large garden tractor with a bucket.
Can anyone attest to how the hyros run in -40 wind chills without the tranny heater? Anything hyraulic needs to be warmed up with use at these temps, but wondering if it will even want to move over .5 mph for 1/2 hour ....
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 | grinder
Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 677 central Maine
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2004-02-07 76250
I just let it run for awhile 15-20 mins. before I crank it up to 2500rpms. Not a problem even well below zero. The wind
chill factor does not apply to machines. It's based on the degree of heat loss of exposed skin.
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| blizzard
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 282 Central Maine
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2004-02-07 76254
Yes, wind chill only applies to exposed skin. But I read that DennoA is concerned maybe the fluids will never warm up much with frigid temps. and a strong wind. Moving air reduces the boundary layer that insulates us, and metal too. Just disconnect your fan on a warm day.....
bliz ....
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