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JD 2240 with noisy clutch

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Jelliott
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 58 North Georgia
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2003-06-09          57214

I've got a problem with the clutch on my '78 JD 2240. When the tractor has been run for an hour or so, the clutch sometimes, not always, will make a loud moaning/groaning type sound when the pedal is depressed. When this happens, the clutch also does not seem to quite disengage all the way.
I know this rig is not exactly a compact tractor, but thought you all may have an idea what is wrong. This condition in no way hinders the operation of the tractor, I'm just concerned it may indicate more serious problems not too far down the road. Any Ideas?

Thanks,
Jim


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JD 2240 with noisy clutch

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slowrev
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2003-06-09          57216

It probably indicates more serious trouble to come. I would get it checked. It could be as simple as a release bearing going dry. Can you grease the release bearing on that tractor ?
....

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Jelliott
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2003-06-09          57220

slowrev,

Don't think the release bearing is greasable. There is a section in the operator's manual showing all the components that need lubrication, and the throw out bearing is not mentioned. There is also an inspection cover in the bell housing, I removed the cover and looked inside, didn't see any zerks. ....

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Art White
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2003-06-10          57256

You might even have a pilot bearing on it's way out. It is hard to tell but if they have never been changed either could be the culprit. They are not greaseable on those tractors other than with a cheater seal greaser and without disassembly at best you might be able to do the throwout bearing. ....

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Jelliott
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2003-08-07          61139

Thought I would dredge this thread up & solicit more advice from the experts. I was bushhogging with the 2240 again this past weekend, and the clutch was moaning/groaning like a SOB. The condition is basically as I described in the original message, but I did notice that the moaning noise stops when the clutch is fully depressed. This rig has a two stage clutch, you can push the pedal 1/2 way down to disengage the transmission, and all the way to disengage the pto. The clutch drags slightly when it makes the groaning noise, I don't see how the pilot bearing, or release bearing could be the culprit since the noise, and dragging stop when the clutch is depressed all the way to the floor. Seems to me it has to be something to do with the two stage clutch. Anyone have any ideas?
Also, if I wind up needing to replace the clutch, pressure plate, pilot, release bearings, etc. does anyone have any suggestions regarding where to get the parts? I remember a while back a guy with a slightly newer JD than my 2240, but a similar size, was looking for a clutch, he mentioned something is his post about the JD dealer 'thinking he owned an oilwell". If whoever posted that thread found a clutch at a decent price, please let me know the details.

Thanks ....

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Art White
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2003-08-07          61163

Hate to say this but there is not much tougher of a clutch to keep up with then multi-stage clutches. You have the clutches coming apart and dropping themselves all over the shafts they are to slide on. This gives them a lack of good lubricated shafts to slide on and making them hard to depress. We just had one in a 424 inernational in and was it hard to push down! Yes it did creak as being depressed and no way could you do it by hand,until we replaced the clutches and lubricated it. If they are that dry then chances are they might not be releasing it all the way either. the easiest way to know you have the right parts is to go to the stores your local farmers use. It sounds like you have found your problem. If this unit was in constant use it might not have had the time to do this until they were wornout. As it is sitting might be some of the culprit. ....

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Art White
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2003-08-07          61165

I forgot to add that some of these are very difficult to adjust and special care needs to be taken when setting these up so beware! I just hate most things that I have to do twice to perfect! Thank heavens for s#x. ....

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TomG
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2003-08-08          61202

General help only from me I'm afraid, and maybe little help at all. First thing is that almost any clutch work requires splitting a tractor. To do the work yourself, a prerequisite is that you're equipped to split the tractor. Second is that my Ford repair manual calls for three special tools to install a double clutch. Experienced mechanics often can work around special tools but I think it's pretty difficult. Just installing a new double clutch takes a fair bit of equipment and experience.

It might be good to gather a bit more information about the problem. For example, Does the moaning happen only happen when the pto is engaged? Does it happen only with a heavy load like a cutter on the 3ph whether or not the pto is engaged? Unlikely but there could be some flex between the engine and cases that changes when carrying a heavy load. For similar reasons I wouldn't eliminate the pilot bearing, and some tractors have two of them.

I also wouldn't eliminate TX clutch problems quite yet. I think that the clearance between the disc and pressure plate continues to increase as the pedal is depressed further to disengage the PTO clutch. I'd keep in mind that the TX clutch wasn't fully disengaging when it was moaning.

Since you have access to the bell-housing (few compacts do) you might try cleaning an lubing the pilot shaft and throwout bearing. That doesn't sound like it's the problem to me. Even if it were the bearing likely would be damaged and need replacing. For most people even replacing a throwout bearing would be more of a shop than a home job.

Some better news maybe is that my Ford repair manual basically says that double clutches are serviced only as assemblies (meaning buy a new one and throw the other away). However, my parts manual does have part numbers for individual double-clutch parts. Companies used to rebuild auto clutches and there'd probably be some potential if individual parts can be obtained.
....

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Jelliott
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2003-08-08          61203

Thanks for the info, Art. I'm certain your diagnosis is correct, should have thought of it myself. I'm hoping this problem may solve it's self, I bought my tractor with 800 hours on the clock four years ago, so obviously it has done quite a bit of sitting around (it's a '78 model). The tractor now gets used at least once weekly, so maybe the discs will eventually polish the rust/crud off of the input shaft. The clutch is not at all hard to depress, and it does seem to release completly, it does not even drag all of the time. I believe I will just keep on using the tractor, and hope for the best. It would be nice if this problem went away, but if not, it does not really hurt anything provided it does not get any worse, certainly does not justify breaking the tractor apart! Thanks again for your help.

....

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Art White
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2003-08-11          61591

Don't know of your age but if you have the will to run the engine and just sit and depress the petal over and over very slowly might help loosen it up some. It will tighten up sooner or later and more then likely break or wear out a finger or two. It will only get worse as the accumulations will draw moisture. It will get harder to push as time goes on. But then I'd say 6 hours to split and install and having enough time to do a good job. Don't know how long it will take to have the flywheel turned and don't know if it is a recessed flywheel or not but believe it is, be sure if it is the recess is cut to factory specifications. They are in the factory service manuals. ....

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JD 2240 with noisy clutch

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Jelliott
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2003-08-12          61611

Art, Somehow my willingness to run the engine, and repeatetedly depress the clutch is a function of my age??? Well, I'm 44, and I tried just that over the weekend. I pulled out the two inspection/adjustment plugs and sprayed some WD40 on the splines of the PTO shaft (the hollow outer shaft), could not get at the main input shaft with the WD, but I realy saturated the PTO shaft hoping some lubericant would run down the shaft & get to the main shaft/clutch disc. I then tried running the engine, and pumping the heck out of the clutch - did not do a bit of good. I then used the tractor several hours, and the problem just kept getting worse.
I'm thinking that the disc must be nearly frozen to the shaft now because sometimes the clutch does not disengage at all when you depress the pedal, which can get scary sometimes; when you depress the clutch, you need for the tractor to stop! Given that the pedal action is still smooth as silk, but the clutch is reluctant to disengage, the clutch must be frozen on the shaft, tight against the flywheel. The pressure plate & throw out brgs are probably OK, but I'm not going to break that sucker apart without replaceing the works!
I broke down and ordered a new JD clutch, pressure plate assy (includes PTO clutch), clutch disc, pilot, and throwout bearing. My farmer buddy gave me the name of a couple sources for rebuilt parts, but it was only going to save me a little over 100 bucks, so I just went with new ($740 for everything!!) Parts should be in today, or tomorrow. If I get the chance, I will break her apart over the weekend. I'll post the results when I'm done. Thanks for your help. ....

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Art White
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2003-08-12          61617

Well I've tried what you did before and my leg got tired too thats why I asked, talked my son into doing it for me. Good move to replace it all. The two stage clutches are harder then a single dish for sure to deal with. Will you be doing the work or someone else? ....

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Jelliott
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2003-08-12          61618

OK, now I understand the age comment. Come to think of it, my leg did start getting a little tired with all the clutch pumping!
I'm going to attempt this job myself. I've dabbled around doing mechanic work pretty much all my life, and have a well equipped shop. My buddy at the JD dealership said that I should not have any problem. I mentioned that I replaced a clutch on either a 601 or 801 Ford when I worked at my cousin's garage 20 or so years ago. He said my 2240 would be much easier than that one, I'm not sure why, did not ask him to elaborate. I don't remember any details of that earlier clutch job other than the fact that it went fairly smoothly. I'll let you know how I make out on this one in a week or so. ....

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Art White
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2003-08-12          61635

Remove the hood, disconnect the wiring, make wedges out of 2x4"s for the front axle so it won't pivot on you when coming apart. Make sure you are on good and level floors to make rolling it back and forth safe. Flat rate is four hours roughly for this type job. I figure six for novice wrenchers. ....

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Jelliott
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2003-08-12          61640

I'll certainly be satisfied if I can knock this one out in 4 - 6 hours. My dealer buddy reminded me about fabricating some wood blocks to keep the front end from pivoting. I assume the normal practice is to support the aft portion of the tractor, and roll the front end when separating? It's been so long since I did that old Ford that I can't remember how I did it.
I used to 'moonlight' working on cars in the evenings (before kids). My favorite jobs were import FWD clutches and timing belts - once you've done one Camry or Accord belt or clutch, you can knock them out in a couple of hours all day long at ~$100 a pop for labor. I imagine clutch jobs are fairly popular with the professional tractor techs as well. I don't think I'll be getting into the tractor repair business anytime soon, but do not anticipate any major problems. ....

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Art White
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2003-08-12          61665

I've watched your posts, I think you can handle it. Do get the spec's on the flywheel if it is recessed. You are low hours but it will last longer. ....

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TomG
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2003-08-13          61717

I've heard people doing splits using something they call a splitting mall--a small sledge to encourage separation. I sure wouldn't want to bang on cast parts though.

I have had to tinker with engine hoist and TX jack positions in automotive work to get the angles right so the pilot shaft releases easily as I'm sure you know. I imagine tractors would be the same and for that reason it might be good to have jacks (at least one with wheels) under both halves and then maybe the mall idea isn't needed. If the front half is rolled, I wonder if it might be good to block the steering in place as well as the engine. Might save some trouble lining things up when putting it back together. ....

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Art White
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2003-08-13          61719

Tom, that splitting maul is for fire wood not tractors! ....

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TomG
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2003-08-13          61723

Yes Art that's my reaction too. But there was a story quite awhile back on another board where somebody described the mall he used to spit his tractor in some detail. He seemed to consider it an essential tool. If I were doing that I'd think it'd be a more appropriate tool for my head. Maybe if I used it enough I wouldn't be inclined to mess with the tractor or anything else for that matter. It'd be safer for everybody that way except for whoever had to keep wiping up my drool.

It's not a bad illustration for paying attention to alignment though, but it sounds like J (Jeff?)has been through this and knows about alignment.

I don't think I've heard of the idea of blocking the steering before so I don't know if that'd be useful. It just struck me that if the front was rolled away along a curve and then pushed back on a slightly different curve the halves could be real hard to get back together.
....

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TomG
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2003-08-14          61802

On the way to town yesterday I got to wondering if I missed a trick here. The story about the mall did have a picture of the split tractor and assorted equipment. I think the mall was in it. If it was a spoof it was an elabourate one. Now I recall that the guy never said how he used the mall.

I wonder if small alignment changes could be made by whacking the tires, the rolling jack or at least something that wasn't cast. It might be useful trick but more for getting the halves back together than for taking them apart. I imagine there'd be problems similar to automotive work of lining up clutch discs and starting a shaft in the pilot bearing.

If goes back together but the cases are spread on one side, I think I'd want to avoid using the case bolts to try and pull it together. A long time ago I used bolt power when putting a starter back on my car and broke the bell housing. A small disaster and now I know better. A whack here or there might help close the cases.

....

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Art White
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2003-08-14          61803

Tom, for your info we use splitting stands which on the rear end secure it so it doesn't move. They support under the clutch housing normally and under the drawbar plate in the rear. The front depending on the tractor will normally have a stand that is on casters and bolts to both sides of the engine supports. The other system a little riskier you take a couple of wedges and install them in the axle pivot area to keep it upright and then slide it away on a jack or you could use a crane. The secret is mot to change the relationship of the two halves so they slide right back together. ....

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TomG
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2003-08-15          61886

These might be pretty good comments for people considering a 'do it yourself split.' On one hand, it shouldn't be too difficult but it would be less easy and more risky without the sort of equipment dealers have. For that reason I'm inclined most times to let my dealer do this sort of thing. I've been through enough struggles and heroic sagas of my own making. Simple and easy even if costly works for me most times, and if I mess it up my sagas end up being costly too.

I keep thinking that there's probably all sorts of ways for the halves to get out of alignment for a person using typical owner equipment even for a person taking a lot of care (caster wheels hit stones and swivel, enthusiasm with a breaker bar etc.). The mall idea that originally sounded dumb to me just may be useful for a garage job that does end up with a problem. Just thinking about this stuff might be good too. I don't think the manuals say to chock both rear wheels front and back, now that I think about it, that might be a pretty good idea.

....

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Jelliott
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2003-08-18          62042

Well, I recruited my father-in-law for an extra set of hands, and we split the old 2240 right down the middle this past Saturday, went smooth as silk. There was a little more junk to disconnect before getting down to business than I thought - took nearly 2 hours to get her stripped down and ready to split.
Once we were ready to perform surgery, we placed an old 8 x 8 wood block (that thing comes in handy for lots of stuff) under the transmission on the aft end, and shimmed the difference with a couple pieces of 2 x 10 planks. We put a floor jack with another 2 x 10 under the oil pan (was a little worried about this, but the pan looked to be sturdy enough), then removed the bell housing bolts. No splitting maul was required; all it took to break the two halves apart was to depress the clutch - the tractor separated 1/4 inch or so, and my father-in-law and I got on each front tire, and rolled her the rest of the way apart.
Now for the good news! When the tractor separated, lots of little bearings spilled out, when we removed the pressure plate and clutch, all that was left of the pilot bearing was the outer race. The clutch and pressure plate looked good as new, I know because I had the new parts to compare them to. The flywheel and pressure plate did not have any heat spots, and the clutch facing was only about .015 thinner than my new part. If not for the fact that I'm broke, and the clutch and pressure plate cost $600, I would have put the new parts in anyway, but the old ones looked so good that I decided to reuse them. In addition to the pilot bearing, I decided to go ahead and replace the throwout bearing, even though the old one felt fine.
We did not have a line-up tool, and had to eyeball it when aligning the clutch for reassembly. We must have hit it right on the money because it slipped right back together, just had to turn the engine a little to engage the splines, and it slid together almost unbelievably easily. I bushhogged a couple of hours on Sunday, and the tractor preformed flawlessly, no noise from the clutch, and it engages/disengages smooth as silk. All in all, I've got ~$75 bucks and just over 6 hrs invested in the repair. Must be living right, thats a lot less $$$, and less labor than I anticipated. ....

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Art White
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2003-08-18          62043

I know there were times when doing jobs like this that we all say oh no, what did I get into! You did well and you were on track for time! ....

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TomG
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2003-08-18          62051

That's a real good story. Happy about the parts outcome and the 'no probs' job. I'd like to think that all the bumph from me and response from Art might have headed off a few problems but it's more likely that it was just bumph from me. Might help somebody else in the future though.

I've got a stack of 8x8 to 12x12 timbers from guardrail posts and forestry bridges. Real handy to cut blocks from as needed and surprising how often I need them.

Thanks for straightening out my spelling. Mauls not malls. Just as well that neither a maul nor a mall was required. I'd like to blame it on my spelling checker but really can't. The only thing I can say is that I do have to use malls on my head sometimes (can't always avoid them) and they do give me splitting headaches, as do most carnivals.
....

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Art White
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2003-08-18          62077

Tom, I think I've got more spelling blunders per post then anyone! I don't often look over my typing as I do get a few questions during the day and I know I should have looked them over before sending it on! But no one has said anything yet! ....

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Jelliott
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2003-08-19          62148

What a ripoff! Went to return the clutch and pressure plate assy to the JD dealer yesterday, and he wanted to stick me with a 20% restocking fee, and charge me another $35 shipping fee (already paid the shipping once). The parts guy said I could come back later in the week and talk to the owner to see if he would consider stocking these items - the 20% was, according to the parts guy, what Deere charges him to restock special order items. Really ticks me off! These parts set me back around six hundred bucks, at 20% to restock, and $35 shipping, it will cost me $155! Hopefully the owner will give me a break and stock the parts, I believe these parts are common to several JD tractors in the 40 - 60hp range. Things like this make me glad I went orange on my recent compact tractor purchase, wonder what Kubota's policy is on returned parts? ....

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TomG
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2003-08-19          62159

Sorry to hear that this very happy outcome came up with an aggravation. I'd guess that all manufacturers have similar policies and I guess I can understand why, at least in my head. My heart would go with aggravation though.

I don't know if tractor dealers have parts systems similar to N.A. car manufacturers. A car dealer can find a part that any other dealer has in inventory unless the systems have changed. Such a system likely would make a dealer a little more inclined to take the parts back into his own inventory. The dealer undoubtedly would have to pay JD for the parts though but you wouldn't have to pay shipping back to JD. Somebody ends up having to pay something and who pay what probably depends on how much stock the dealer puts on customer good will.
....

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Art White
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2003-08-19          62160

If you have the cross I'll bring the nails but that's about the way it goes with all the companies. I know we do stock most of that type of part for the old IH's but it's not the way of the future for a lot of the dealers. Talk to the dealer or parts manager for some help on that. ....

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Jelliott
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2003-08-19          62171

I'll let you all know how I make out with the owner. I have bought lots of parts from him over the years, and this is the first time I have tried to return anything. My dealer's shop is typically full of tractors of similar size to mine, and since these parts are common to several models, I'll bet he could re-sell fairly quickly.
I'll say this much, IF I had opted to go green in lieu of orange on my compact tractor purchase (I got a B7800), and the dealer would not deal with me on the clutch issue, I would certainly take my business elsewhere in the future. The owner of the dealership is out of town this week, so I will not get a verdict on the clutch return until sometime early next week. ....

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kwschumm
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2003-08-19          62175

A 10-20% restocking charge is very common, and it's probably spelled out on your invoice or on a sign in the dealers parts department.

I can understand your frustration as I have been in the same situation, but you are asking the dealer to pay his money for you changing your mind. The dealer didn't do anything wrong when he ordered the parts, he did what you asked him to. That doesn't seem fair to me.

If the dealer could sell the parts relatively soon and not tie his money up in dead inventory then good customer relations may be worth making an exception to their policy. The employees may not be empowered to make those exceptions. If not, they are just doing their jobs so being angry with them will create hard feelings and not solve anything. Talking calmly to the owner is the right thing to do. ....

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Jelliott
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2003-08-19          62178

I agree for the most part, but still think a 20% restocking fee is a little excessive. If my dealer is unwilling to stock these parts, and if Mother Deere is going to hit him with the same 20% charge, I would certainly not expect him to eat it. However, I think that in my case there may be some extenuating circumstances that may lead to the owner working with me on this one. Here's a brief summary of what went down:
I called the dealer and asked to speak to David, a technician whose advise I have solicited in the past. I described to David in detail my tractors symptoms. David said that in all probability the clutch disc was warped, and recommended replaceing the works (clutch, pressure plate assy, pilot, and release bearings). I told David to go up front and order the parts for me, which he did. This in my normal M.O. David is a real nice guy, as well as an excellent tractor mechanic, I always consult him regarding problems with my tractor, and after concurring on the problem, David looks up & orders the parts for me. Since the owner's head mechanic was involved, and was the one who actually placed the order, I hope that he will be compeled to just take the parts into stock. They are a big dealer, with a huge shop that is always chug full of tractors, most of which are in the 40 - 80 hp range in size. I'll bet he could unload this clutch in fairly short order. ....

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kwschumm
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Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2003-08-19          62180

A big restocking charge always irks me too. I'm not sure if it's a Deere or dealer charge. Dealers might add this charge to prevent people from special ordering a bunch of parts, swapping them out until a problem is fixed, then returning everything else.

If your dealer values your business he will likely do right by you, especially since his mechanic was involved. Stay cool and you will probably prevail.

Good luck, and please let us know how it turns out. ....

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JD 2240 with noisy clutch

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Jelliott
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 58 North Georgia
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2003-08-22          62449

Final Update: I took my clutch and pressure plate assy back to the dealer. He ran a querry, and showed me where it had been six years since he last ordered these parts. He used to carry Ford in addition to JD, said he used to sell/install lots of clutches in Fords, but very few in JDs. Anyway, I could not blame him for not wanting to take my parts into stock. He returned them to JD but only charged me a 15% restocking fee and no shipping. The counter guy had told me in error that it would be 20%, and that I would have to pay shipping. Somehow, $88 was a lot easier to swallow than $117 (parts cost $587). Hopefully my clutch will hold out for several more years, the tractor has 800 odd hrs on it, and the clutch still looked new, so hopefully I will not have to split it again anytime soon. ....

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JD 2240 with noisy clutch

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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2003-08-22          62452

$88 is nothing to sneeze at but it seems that you were able to resolve things peacefully. That's good. You probably couldn't have got that much for it reselling it yourself. At least your dealer took the time to research the issue a little to see if he could work with you. ....

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JD 2240 with noisy clutch

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Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2003-08-22          62465

Depends on the work you do but I'd say you have a few years yet before the need will hit you to change the clutch. ....

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