Go Bottomdraft sensing control system
 | Wayne Bryndel
Join Date: Posts: 1 
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2003-04-15 53171
Is the "draft sensing control system" available as an option for the jd 4710? Thank you much.
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley 
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2003-04-16 53246
Under specs on the JD site for 4710's there is a spec called 'draft control type.' The type is listed as 'position control.' Another spec indicates that sensing type is optional. That's a bit confusing to me but I'd guess the answer is yes, draft control is available as an option. ....
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| TimB
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 31 Southwest PA
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2003-04-18 53336
Draft control is listed as optional for the 4710 but be aware it is also listed as mutually incompatible with the "top-and-tilt" option (haven't figured out why yet). ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-04-18 53343
I wonder if the reason is a safety rather than a mechanical thing? Operation of tip 'n tilt could trigger a draft control hitch's lift. I'm not sure how much difference that would make when a tractor is working. You'd think that using the TnT during operation might change the draft but the hitch would just change the implement depth to compensate.
I guess that if TnT were operated when a tractor was stopped with an implement on the ground that the lift could be triggered. That might cause the implement to lift jump a bit. I don't know if something like this would be enough of an issue to label TnT as incompatible with draft control.
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| TimB
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 31 Southwest PA
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2003-04-18 53347
I would imagine that there is a potential for a undesirable interaction between the two systems (although it's intriquing to think if there might also be a complimentary aspect that would pull off some nice effects used right). However, all draft control systems I've seen (include the JD CUTs) can be completely shut off using one extreme of the control setting. Seems like most larger tractors come standard with both position and draft control - yet "top-and-tilt" systems are applied to these tractors using aftermarket products. I believe that I've seen other CUT manufacturers that offer both features on the same tractor (Kiota?)
I have a hunch that the JD case is no more complicated than a simple mechanical fitment conflict - or hydraulic plumbing conflict - when limited to the various pre-fabricated pieces that JD utilizes for these two options. If that's true it may be possible to add an aftermarket "top-and-tilt" (or at least "top") - or adapt the JD parts - to a draft-control-equipped tractor using additional bits and pieces. Example guess - maybe it's something like the JD draft control set up (which locates the top link connection differently than the standard hitch) possibly requires a unusually short top link - shorter than the working range of the hydraulic cylinder top link used in the factory top-and-tilt kit.
But that's all conjecture until somebody unearths the real reason. Since both options sound useful under different respective conditions it would be nice to know the reason for the stated mutual incompatiblity - and if it can be overcome.
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| slowrev
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 231 Winchester , KY
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2003-04-18 53350
The draft control systems I have seen and own sense the pressure on the top link and adjust the depth accordingly to keep the tractor pulling at a depth the tractor can handle.
The hydraulic cylinder hooks up in place of the top link, so that everytime you operate the cylinder the hitch will either raise or lower because of the changing pressure on the top link attachment point. This would seem to make it very awkward if not impossible to control the lift height while using the hydraulic top link. It could as mentioned before cause dangerous erratic behaviour of the hitch/attachment. If your cylinder/control valve for it has any bleed down, this would also cause problems, even if the hydraulic top link is not operated.
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| TimB
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 31 Southwest PA
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2003-04-18 53353
Slowrev - don't you have a position on the draft sensing control where it is effectively shutoff? (max. insensitivity) - every example I've seen described had that. At that position, movement of the hyd. toplink *shouldn't* be "seen" by the draft control. (The JD is "top link sensing" - I think some of the bigger NH units are bottom-link sensing which might eliminate conflict as well). In any case, something I'll have to ask the dealer before I ever order.
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| Stan in Calif
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 47 Sacramento Valley- Glenn County
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2003-04-19 53412
Tim- You might be on to something. There must be two different types of draft control. My tractor has hyd. top link and a five position load and depth control. The mount on the tractor where the top link attaches is rigid- I don't see the big spring that I remember on the old Fords. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-04-20 53426
The optional draft control for my Ford 1710 (I don't have it) is a purely mechanical feedback mechanism. It depends on gaining significant movement due to draft changes from a leaf spring behind the top-link bracket to directly operate the control valve. Other systems are hydro-mechanical, and a cylinder is used to sense draft changes. Springs are contained on sensing cylinders and may not be apparent. The feedback is hydraulic rather than mechanical.
I suspect that most draft controls in newer tractors are electronic. The sensing units and feedback units could be very small and may use very small springs or maybe none at all. Any of these type systems could use top-link compression or lower link tension to drive the sensing unit. Newer systems eliminate the need for sizable mechanical movements for the feedback and therefore the need for large springs is eliminated as well.
I think most draft sensing systems can be virtually shut off by selecting the lowest sensitivity. That idea returns me to my safety comment. There are a couple stories I've heard where dicey situations or injuries resulted when draft levers were accidentally bumped and changed positions. Maybe the incompatibility is a safety thing. Another possibility is that a hydraulic top-link may have the capability of breaking the sensing mechanism. Don't know--still guessing here.
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 | Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2003-04-20 53427
There are several types, spring, bending bar, and electronic. They vary in sensitivity from needing about 25% load change to down to about a 5% load change. The electronic are the most flexible as far as accurate adjustment. Those are currently only available on the larger farm tractors. Depeending on the type used on the JD tractors there might not be appropriate room to install with the top-n-tilt cylinder. ....
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| slowrev
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 231 Winchester , KY
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2003-04-21 53485
TimB,
Yes my I-2444 has a position in which the draft control is essentially shut off. I would think that if you had both hydraulic top link and draft control that they would work, just not both at the same time. For example, adjust your top link and then set your draft control, but do not adjust the top link while draft control is enabled. I thought and played with this a bit over the weekend.
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| TimB
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 31 Southwest PA
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2003-04-24 53675
I think it would be fascinating to try to see if some kind of coordinated use could work out to advantage - example using the hyd. top link to change the angle on a box blade to change it's action a bit but having the draft control automatically compensate for the actual bite being taken. However, I could live with just having an "either/or" situation.
What I'll have to find out is if the reason JD won't provide both on the 4000-Ten's is because *their* combination of parts just don't physically fit together - or if it's because there is something intrinsic to their draft sensing system that would be potentially "damaged" by the forces of a hydraulic top link.
If it's the former - then I could order the tractor with draft control, live with "just" manual hitch adjustments until such time as I get ambitious and make up a top-n-tilt system from aftermarket components that do fit.
If it's the latter - well then that will take some thought as to which feature is likely to prove more useful over time in my intended uses. As someone pointed out - you *can* adjust the hitch angles without top-n-tilt. I suppose it could also be said you can mimic the action of the draft control with a deft hand on the position control. At the end of the day, both are just more convenient ways to handle something that can already be done. ....
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