Go BottomSecret Specs on John Deere Compact Tractors
 | DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada 
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2003-02-06 48807
Had an interesting visit at Gold Country Kubota on Tuesday.
I needed to get some bar tires for the BX because the turfs are not working out as well as I thought, and the dealer down the street has blackballed me because I bought a tractor somewhere else.
So I drive 130 miles one way when I need parts.
Sigh.
Anyway, Since this is a real tractor dealer, they had lots of cool stuff. Got to see (and crawl under) the new JD 4010 and 2210. Also kicked the tires on the new Kubota BX1500, and I have observations on all of these that I will save for another thread.
While there I found a publication called:
John Deere Governmental Bid Specification Booklet.
It has a bunch of info we don't usually see in consumer sales brochures, such as:
Engine compression ratios,
Suggested operating ranges (RPM),
Drawbar tongue weight ratings (vertical loads),
Towing and braking capacities,
Axle weight ratings and,
Operational sound levels as expressed in dB(A).
In a prior thread I was running through some ballast numbers I gleaned from the operators manual on my 410 loader.
The numbers in this publication confirm I was in the right neighborhood.
The front axle on the 41xx series is rated "in operation" at 750# and the rear axle is rated at 2426#. These numbers (3176 pounds)effectively double the weight of the bare bones tractor and give us a clue as to what amount of ballast the tractor is designed to accommodate.
If you folks would like some of the numbers on your 4000, 5000, 90 and 110 series tractors, let me know.
Did you know that Deere has five models of skid steers and those suckers weigh as much as 9200 pounds?
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 | johnson445
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 19 mn 
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2003-02-06 48808
I would be interested on the info for a 4110 ....
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| DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2003-02-06 48812
David, here are the numbers for the 4710, I am not sure if it is am exact comparison to the 4700:
Fuel Consumption 75 percent power..........1.9 GPH
Engine compression ratio... 18:1
Suggested operating ranges (RPM)..... 1000-2810
Drawbar tongue weight ratings (vertical loads)... 1000#
Towing and braking capacities "Equals ballasted weight of tractor and operator", (the 4210-4410 are listed at 8000# from the drawbar so the 4710 should add up to about 10,500# from the drawbar)
Axle weight ratings .........front 4960#, rear 5292#
Operational sound levels as expressed in dB(A)...88
Johnson, here are the 4110 numbers:
Fuel Consumption 75 percent power..........Not Listed
Engine compression ratio... 23.1 : 1
Suggested operating ranges (RPM)..... 1000-2850
Drawbar tongue weight ratings (vertical loads)... 562#
Towing and braking capacities ..N/L
Axle weight ratings .........front 750#, rear 2426#
Operational sound levels as expressed in dB(A)...85
Not all specs are listed for all models.
....
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| plots
Join Date: Posts: 1
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2003-02-06 48814
lets hear some numbers on the 790 deere ....
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| DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2003-02-06 48816
The 790:
Fuel Consumption 75 percent power.........1.3 gph
Engine compression ratio... 18.1 : 1
Suggested operating ranges (RPM)..... 800-2800
Drawbar tongue weight ratings (vertical loads)... 675#
Towing and braking capacities .."Equals ballasted weight of tractor and operator", (should add up to about 7250# if the load is pulled from the drawbar and does not exceed the tongue weight)
Axle weight ratings .........front 3308#, rear 3749#
Operational sound levels as expressed in dB(A)...87
Wow. One stout tractor! 2105# stripped weight and it can carry 5000# ballast! Or maybe they are saying ballast it up, especially for loader work, and get to work(??)
....
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| plots
Join Date: Posts: 1
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2003-02-06 48818
wow that almost sounds out of line beings its a small tractor.that sure is a lot of weight thanks for numbers ....
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| Kyle_in_Tex
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 24 Austin, Tx.
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2003-02-06 48820
Mark, I hope you don't get tired of typing. It sure is nice of you to posts all those specs. I've noticed during my tractor shopping that JD seems to offer the most specs, especially for utility models. One that seems missing from some manufacturers and is potentially the most important is torque and torque rise. What happens is some players try to get more HP out of less displacement and, in a diesel, usually the torque numbers drop. Not trying to start any arguments but they often put fuel consumption numbers at PTO speed etc. Doe's Nebraska test foreign models too. I haven't checked yet...Kyle ....
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| Koby
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 16
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2003-02-06 48821
Mark,
What does that mean for us 4110/410 FEL owners? If I pick up a bucket of just about anything, I would exceed the 750# weight rating for the front axle. ....
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| sonnyjones
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 16 live oak, florida
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2003-02-06 48822
mark; do you have any numbers on the jd855 hydro unit. if so please send them to me.. thanks sonny jones ....
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 | Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2003-02-06 48823
Mark, what do you mean by your local dealer black balled you??????? When you fingers are felling nimble, you can throw up some specs. on the 4410.
Randy ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-02-07 48830
There was a question awhile back about max ballast weight specs. Glad to see that Mark dig up some info. I was reading the posts bottom up and hit Mark's first post. I first thought I would be reading some humor. There was the subject and no text, so I thought: 'Yes indeed, very secret specs and here they are.'
GOV and MIL specs can be sort of a game, and they can be a little hard to interpret what they mean in practical terms. Marks' point awhile back was that 4100's are tractors designed to carry a lot of weight on the 3ph and MIL or not these specs bear that out.
I don't know the weight of a 4110, but just say that the tractor plus loader are around 2,000 lbs. and has a weight distribution of 50/50. That would put 1,000 lbs. on the front axle just driving around, which would no doubt exceed both the axle and front tire max loading ratings. Weight on the 3ph lightens front axle loads while weight in the rear tires doesn't. If this hypothetical is realistic, what it means in practical terms is that the tractor probably always should have some weight on the 3ph and quite a bit for loader work. Of course, if a tractor is carrying big 3ph and big loader weight, it is good to go real slow. Hitting bumps puts a lot of shock load onto the chassis.
....
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 | dsg
Join Date: Jun 1999 Posts: 528 Franklin, Maine 
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2003-02-07 48835
Thank you very much Mark for your diligent work.
David ....
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| DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2003-02-07 48836
Kyle, in this case, the fuel consumption numbers are listed at "mowing speed/75 percent". I did notice there is a wide variance in the compression ratios between different classes of engines, but I do not understand the significance of it.
Koby; I was playing around last summer, trying to turn my 4100 into a mini-fire engine during fire season.
I had two 55 gallon steel drums of water on my 3 point carry-all/platform/hitch. That load is pushing 1200 pounds, which we now know is not out of line with this model.
Anyway, as Tom pointed out, it effectively "unloaded" the front axle. With that load, if I accelerated too briskly on uphill starts, I would float the front axle off the ground, with the empty 410 loader in place. It did better on flat level ground, but it illustrates the point:
If you load the rear axle with near-max ballast, the front axle (with loader in place) probably weighs 150-200 pounds.
Plenty of room left in the equation for 600 pounds of dirt.
But if you decide that you don't want to "overwork" your tractor and you decide to spread that load of gravel with just your loaded tires, you and a 300# rear blade, you may well be overloading and overworking the front axle at the expense of the rest of the tractor.
These numbers are telling us that the rear axle is built to take the bulk of the tractor loading and we should use it in that manner.
Sonny: I only have numbers on current production models, sorry.
Chief: The 4410:
Fuel Consumption 75 percent power.........1.5 gph
Engine compression ratio... 18 : 1
Suggested operating ranges (RPM)..... 1000-2810
Drawbar tongue weight ratings (vertical loads)... 881#
Towing and braking capacities ..8000# if the load is pulled from the drawbar and does not exceed the tongue weight)
Axle weight ratings .........front 3748#, rear 4409#
Operational sound levels as expressed in dB(A)...84
Ok, the dealer thing: I try to do business in my community, even if it costs a little more. I used Oregon prices to whittle down the local dealer price on a BX22 and then ordered it. Keep in mind, I had already purchased a Deere 4100 from this guy the previous year.
The owner told me the BX would be here the following week, and indeed one showed up and he sold it to someone else, who paid full list price (ah-ha!).
Then he said don't worry there is another one coming in a week and that week turned into six weeks until I finally figured out through other sources that he didn't have one on order and could not find one to transfer in, although he kept saying it was a week away.
So I went on an internet search and when I found one in stock a couple hours away, I canceled the order with the local dealer.
He called me on the phone and told me I was a fool, if he couldn't find one how could I (?), and that other dealer was going to rip me off by doing a bait and switch when I got there (very revealing, eh?) or, would try to sell me a BX2200 with an aftermarket mis-matched backhoe.
Then he called me names and hung up on me.
Needless to say, the other dealer had the BX22 as promised.
The machine I ordered locally in mid August finally showed up in mid December.
The local dealer told his staff in both stores that I was no longer welcome on the premises, and if I asked for something I was to be quoted excessive prices.
Despite this my buddy at the local store did some minor warranty adjustments on the BX and when the paperwork crossed the owners desk he threatened to fire the man.
When someone is that adamant about not wanting my business, it is hard to ignore. Case in point: Last week I determined that the turf tires on the BX were not performing as planned so I called the local guy for the price on a set of bar tires and wheels.
Eight hundred bucks, anything else?
No.
Then I called the California dealer:
$296 plus tax, can we order those for you today, sir?
Why yes you can, thank you.
So I drive an extra hundred miles (one way)and spend my money with more reasonable folks.
....
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 | BillMullens
Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 649 Central West Virginia
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2003-02-07 48838
Mark,
Don't suppose you came across a hp/torque vs. rpm curve for any of the compact JD's? I'd like to see one for any brand.
Didn't know that JD made skid steers. The local dealer doesn't stock them. I learned last year that the NH skid steers are heavier than I thought. I offered to haul a small one for a friend that was renting one and looked up specs on it on the NH web page. Geez, it was much heavier than my tractor w/backhoe attached. Too much for my trailer.
Your experience with the dealer reminds me of mine when I bought my tractor. I called the closest dealer (45 min. away) and they put me on hold, then hung up. I called back and was put on perpetual hold. I drove over on a Saturday and waited for over an hour for the "tractor guy" to come in (it is also a motorcycle dealer); finally gave up. Called the second closest dealer (1-1/2 hours away) who took my specs, found one, and got it in about a week. No deposit needed.
It came from the other dealer.
Bill ....
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 | Billy
Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 975 Southeast Oklahoma 
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2003-02-07 48841
Mark,
Are the specs for the JD 4610 basically the same as you posted for the 4710? I know the 4710 has a slightly larger engine with a few more HP but I'm curious if there's any other differences.
Thanks
Billy ....
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| DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2003-02-07 48842
Bill: Nope. Haven't seen a chart like that with real numbers. ....
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| DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2003-02-07 48843
Billy, the only difference is in the fuel consumption..1.7 gph and it is a skosh quieter at 86 dB. ....
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| Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2003-02-07 48844
Mark, If I were you, I would send a nice detailed email to Kubota Corporate in GA. I think they will have a "little talk" with him (your local Kubota dealer)and get his mind right. I had a similar problem with a local Kubota dealer over cost of a ROPS kit for my L245 and contacted Kubota Corporate. They made a few phone calls to this clown and the price dropped about $300. The dealer also changed is tune and attitude when he discoverd that I was the Military Installation Point of Contact for tractors/flight line equip. Which should not have made any difference. Needless to say, when I hear about stories like that, it really get my behind in an uproar. I refuse to contract and procure from dealers who behave like that. I have the phone numbers somewhere for Kubota Corporate if you have a burr up you butt and want to get his mind right.
Thanks for the info. on my 4410.
Randy ....
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| TimB
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 31 Southwest PA
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2003-02-07 48851
Bill,
The peak torque numbers (and corresponding rpm) are published in the owner's manuals. You might be able to read that on-line on the JD site if that particular manual is set up for viewing.
I've seen a tiny chart reproduced on someone's site - I thought it was Stoneham's but I don't see that out there now.
Tim ....
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| Stan
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 87
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2003-02-07 48854
Mark -
I recall you posting your experiences buying the BX before. At the time I think you were hitting the keys pretty hard and gritting your teeth. The extra details about your continued poor treatment just go to show what remarkable restraint you have. Keep on driving to California. Obviously this guy has enough money already.
Thanks for sharing the Mil specs - very interesting. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-02-09 48909
I got to thinking that the rear tire max load ratings were never considered here. I don't know what the ratings are for these tires. However, I'll bet that carrying the max rear ballast that is consistent with the rear axle rating would create loads that exceed the rear tire load ratings--especially if they're turf tires.
It's good to think about tire load ratings even if many people do exceed them frequently.
....
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| TimB
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 31 Southwest PA
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2003-02-09 48910
Except for the R4's I think the tire load problem is more the front than the back. (Although the "regular" turf tires may be limited there, the "golf" tires have higher ratings).
Example - Rear R1's around the size used for the large JD's - 13.6-28, 6 ply, around 2800lbs per tire (at 25mph!), the 16.9-24, 6 ply, around 3400lbs per tire (again at 25mph).
Tim ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-02-10 48969
Could be that modern tires have higher load ratings. The rear turfs for my mid-80's Ford are rated under 1800 lbs. per tire at max load pressure. If I ball-park the weight-distribution and weight on the rear axle and subtract that from the total tire load ratings I get about 2000 lbs. remaining for load plus ballast. That is a bit above the 3ph rating, so I guess the design is consistent. I can't exceed the tire rating without exceeding the 3ph rating. I would have to remember to pump up the tires to their max load pressures though.
Good to think about these things and now I know that there are golf tires that I might look for when I need to replace some rubber.
Another wrinkle in this loading thing is that I believe loaded tire weight doesn't contribute to the axle load but it probably does contribute to tire loads. It would be possible to ballast within the axle rating and still over-load the tires. Of course, that's just not going to happen with some of the load ratings Tim mentioned. Maybe tires are among the few things that improved in modern times.
....
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| DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2003-02-13 49204
Update on the 4100 numbers: I really combed through my manual and found some of the same and some different numbers.
Front axle capacity.....992-1102 pounds.
Rear axle capacity......1984-2205 pounds.
There is no explanation as to why there is a range of weights, maybe for different tires???
Koby, these sound a little better, Eh? ....
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| TimB
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 31 Southwest PA
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2003-02-14 49232
Can anyone confirm what the "manual" numbers really represent? The numbers in the large frame JD (4510-4710) manual for the axles do not seem to have in sum enough capacity to hold even the tractor's base weight. (!) Either it's a major typo - or those are not the absolute axle limits but axle *net* limits above and beyond the the tractor's base weight. That would be a nice number to know but the manual doesn't exactly phrase it that way. ....
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| DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2003-02-14 49236
The numbers I have would seem to indicate the large frame Deere's have a gross vehicle weight of about 10,250 pounds. Does that agree with your manual? ....
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| TimB
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 31 Southwest PA
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2003-02-14 49253
Mark - no, that's what alarmed me when I first saw the axle ratings. In fact if I recall, the front axle in particular did not seem to be rated high enough to handle the normal front weight of the tractor (guessing 40% of the dry curb weight) plus the loader - leaving no room for a load in the bucket. If the numbers listed in the manual are "net" and are above and beyond the already assumed curb weight, then that sounds a lot better. I've never seen any axle on a car or truck rated that way though.
I like the looks of your postings of what look like overall "gross" weight capacity numbers. The manual is at home - I'll post those numbers when I get there.
Tim ....
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| dsg
Join Date: Jun 1999 Posts: 528 Franklin, Maine
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2003-02-14 49259
IMHO, the weight ratings are net. Tractors are designed to be loaded up and worked.
David ....
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| TimB
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 31 Southwest PA
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2003-02-14 49262
OK - Here's the eye-openers. JD Operator's Manual for the 4510-4710.
"Front Axle Operating Capacity" - 992-1102 lb.
"Rear Axle Operating Capacity" - 1984-2205 lb.
So at best, according to these numbers, the combined "operating capacity" is only 3307 lb. - not enough to even hold the tractor itself up! (3450 lb.)
So obviously, something is rotten in Denmark. Either these numbers are flat wrong (plenty of typos in JD literature) - they are the net *remaining* weight capacity (already counting the base tractor weight) - or both.
For what it's worth, the very *next* line in the manual specs lists the "Drawbar Tongue Capacity" as 570 lb. - yet elsewhere in the manual it states that you "should not exceed the following maximums static vertical loads on the drawbar... All Models... 1102 lb."
Aggravating.
Wonder if JD will give me a discount towards a tractor if I proof the manuals? :) ....
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| DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2003-02-14 49267
Tim, those are EXACTLY the same numbers that are in my 4100 manual. Something is really screwed up. ....
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| Koby
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 16
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2003-02-17 49386
Mark,
Those numbers do look much better, thanks for clarifying. I still think additional 3 point hitch ballast will be needed for loader work on my 4110. The blade is better than nothing, but I'll be looking into a ballast box once the snow is gone. Only trouble is, its a useless piece on the 3PH. Guess I'll check out I-match while I'm at it!
....
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| DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2003-02-17 49394
I know what you mean about the ballast box being sort of dead weight.
That is why a lot of folks try to get a little more work out of it.
In my case I built a 24x48 steel basket on top of a set of carry-all forks and put a class III receiver hitch under the basket so I can tow trailers.
Empty, it weighs about 185 (same as the bucket on the other end) and can haul tools and junk. If it is time to do some loader work I stack cement blocks in the basket and it becomes a variable-weight ballast box that can go up to 1000# if needed.
The I-match would make a ballast box more manageable. If you decide to go that route, have a look at the ballast boxes for the X-series sub-compacts. The pics I have seen show a flange welded on the back for a trailer ball.
....
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| DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2003-02-17 49397
Have two different sets of numbers is like the guy with two watches. He never really knows what time it is..... ....
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| DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2003-02-19 49520
4100 axle numbers: Here is another clue. The operating weight for the front axle is listed as 750 pounds/610 kg.
My calculator says 610kg equals 1342 pounds.
Just another example of JD's need for a proof reader. ....
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| Billy
Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 975 Southeast Oklahoma
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2003-02-19 49531
Hey Mark,
It seems JD isn't the only one in need of a proofreader. Check this out. It won't let me put the link here. Oh well, it was funny.
Billy ....
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