Go Bottom4200 Loader has no lift power
 | jadair
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 4 KC 
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2002-04-23 37764
I have a 4200 and 420 loader. It seems to work OK except that it has no lift power. I can lift the bucket all the way up but if I put any weight in it (like 100 lbs) it won't lift. Any ideas?
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley 
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2002-04-24 37777
I'd check to make sure the diverter valve (most tractors have one) is completely in the auxiliary system position and any quick disconnect fittings are seated. I'd also listen for a relief valve sound. Many systems are plumbed with the loader valve before the 3ph. In such a hook up, the 3ph won't lift when a loader valve is active. I'd put the 3ph into lift and see if it stops when a loader valve is operated.
If all these things check out, there may be a problem like a failed pressure relief valve in the loader valve. ....
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 | DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2002-04-24 37782
Trouble shooting tips: Ok. It won't lift. But will it go the other direction? Can you pick the front end of the tractor off the ground? Or can you roll the bucket and lift the front wheels? Did you remove the loader from the tractor just before the problem cropped up? Have you checked or changed the hydraulic fluid? Do you have a Gear or an HST model? I was going to do twenty questions but my typing finger is tired now. ....
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| jadair
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 4 KC
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2002-04-24 37799
Haven't had a chance to try the bucket-roll-lift, but I did have it disconnected for a few months. It's an HST model with only about 90 hours. I also have a 72 inch belly mower so had the 3rd SCV installed last summer (not part of the original purchase). I haven't had a lot of luck with my local JD dealer service, so any help here is greatly appreciated. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-04-25 37802
I wonder if the loader has worked normally at any time since the dealer installed additional valve and since the loader was disconnected. If the loader ever worked normally since the hydraulics were disconnected, then wrong plumbing connections isn't the problem.
There's really not a lot that can be said without knowing if the 3ph works normally. If it works, then the hydraulic pump and system pressure relief valve are working.
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| Brentb
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 21 Illinois
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2002-04-25 37807
I don't suppose its as simple as you have the quick disconnect hoses hooked up incorrectly? ....
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| jadair
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 4 KC
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2002-04-25 37816
Knowing me, I wouldn't rule out the incorrect hose hookup. But it does seem to function in up, down, roll fwd and back. It just doesn't have much lift capacity. I'm going to try some of the troubleshooting tips today. ....
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| jadair
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 4 KC
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2002-04-27 37875
Tried to lift the front of the tractor by rolling the bucket and no dice. Also tried raising the 3ph...it stops when I move the bucket. I have fluid in the bubble and no apparent leaks. The rest of the story is there was a problem with the 72 inch deck when I first got the tractor; apparently it was not hookep up correctly and rubbed a hole in a large hose underneath. It leaked most of the fluid out before I discovered it. I took it to a dealer who repaired the hose, but I wonder if permanent damage could have been sustained that didn't become apparent until I put a load on the bucket? ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-04-27 37880
I'll try to be relatively brief. Below is my attempt at an organized way to identify the problem. I'm making an assumption that the tractor has a diverter valve that selects between remote and auxiliary hydraulic systems and that the tractor now runs from an auxiliary system where the return oil in turn feeds the high-pressure line to the 3ph. This post is long and probably tough reading (tough writing too). Hope it helps.
The pump could be damaged if it ran dry for awhile. That doesn't seem likely from the description though. Other hydraulic parts are unlikely to be damaged by a leak.
Taking a pressure test would be a good idea at this point. Basic gauges are inexpensive, and most any hydraulics shop can fit a gauge with a length of hose and an appropriate fitting. The procedure for my 1710 is to connect a gauge to the pressure port on the manifold block, place the diverter valve in remote, start the engine and rotate the diverter valve to auxiliary just long enough to take a reading. A manual would give the speced system pressure, but they're usually around 1800 - 1900 lbs. Some are around 1600.
A good pressure test is proof positive that the pump, relief valve and priority valve (if equipped) are OK. An alternative is to place the diverter in remote and try to lift something too heavy for the 3ph. It should open the relief valve, which can be heard to squeal. A lift test isn't conclusive because low pressure can result from a weak relief valve, but a completely broken valve probably won't squeal much. It's not conclusive but still a pretty good indication that the pump/valve are OK.
If the relief valve can be opened with a heavy load while the diverter is in remote, the valve can be changed to auxiliary. If the relief valve no longer opens (and all loader valves are centred), then the problem is likely in the auxiliary system lines or loader valve parts that handle the open centre flow. If the relief valve still opens, the problem likely is in the SCV control valves section, cylinders or cylinder lines.
I don't know if the SCV the dealer installed was an additional control valve section added to the existing valve assembly or an additional valve assembly. I suppose the added SCV should be a suspect in all this.
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-04-27 37889
Yikes! I got so carried away with trying to diagnosis high-pressure problems that I forgot about the low-pressure ones. I also broke my own rule of checking the basics first. An obstructed suction line or clogged filter will cause slow weak hydraulics, but that would affect the speed and power of the 3ph as well. Obstructed suction lines often are associated with deteriorating performance and eventually hot frothy oil. The pump may cavitate, which can sound like a buzzing or rattling. Prolonged cavitation can ruin a pump. I don't think that's what's going on due to the description, but it probably should be checked out.
We sorted out such a problem here over a year ago. It turned out to be a deteriorate hose that put a bunch of hose material into the oil and clogged a relatively new filter. I recalled that problem when I remembered that the mower cylinder hose mentioned here had rubbed through. There's a possibility that if the valve is ahead of the loader valves and hose material was carried into the oil then particles could have lodged in the loader control valves or TANK outlet or line. However, obstructed loader valves or TANK lines should result in a relief valve that opens whenever the loader is operated.
Anyway, it's a possibility. The trouble shooting approach I described still should eventually identify where the problem is, but maybe this post is easier to read.
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| MRETHICS
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 190 Star City, Indiana
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2002-04-27 37896
TomG has given you excelent trouble shooting advice. The only thing I can ad is that the third function hyd. valve is already installed on your tractor with the stock joystick controls. the valve is already there. The only thing the dealer installs is the plumbing and control lever.
I will add this, diagnostics of hydraulic problems can sometimes drive a man nuts. Ussually after the solution is found, I always kick myself because it was so simple and I had made a mountain out of a mole hill, or because there were more than one problem and symptoms were masked by other issues. I cannot speak for all dealers, but our's makes some adjustments to labor costs on these kinds of diagnostics, unless they are a warrenty issue and the factory is paying the bill.....we have to, or the bill would be increadably high.
Using TomG's advice should zero in on the problem. ....
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| Buddy
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 6 Augusta,GA
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2002-05-01 38024
Have your local dealer test pump flow and SCV relief pressure. If in spec , maybe the cylinder packing is gone. ....
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| Paul Wisdom
Join Date: Posts: 1
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2002-10-25 44191
I have a 4200 that is 1.5 years old. 100 hours. It has been in the shop for over two months. The rear lifts quit working. If i take the mower deck off, it will lift but with any weight it will not. the dealer has replaced much of it and it still does not work. When he tore it apart it had metal shavings in it.Evidently it has a major problem that JD knows about because the fix kit had 369 on back order! ....
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| DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2002-10-25 44197
Paul, unfortunately you are right. There are several posts about metal shavings in the hydraulic fluid in the first year or so of production on the 4200-4700 tractors. Hope they fix it soon, and I hope Deere is paying for it. ....
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| rod62
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 1 Eleva, WI
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2002-10-25 44202
I too have been having trouble with my 4200 I have no power to the bucket or the 3 point I have replaced the pump and hydrolic filter cleaned the screen. where is the relief located is there one or two? ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-10-26 44218
I don't know the tractor. Most tractors have one system relief valve and a safety relief for the 3ph and another for the loader valve. A safety relief protects against load shocks and is set for much higher pressures than the system relief. A safety relief problem isn't likely the problem since both the loader and 3ph are affected.
The system relief on my Ford is part of the hydraulic manifold block. No matter where it's located, you can't do much with it without a pressure gauge, which really aren't very expensive. Even if a broken spring was found in a relief, it's a good idea to adjust the pressure after any new part is installed. Relief valve pressure normally is set by installing shims behind a spring. However, doing this sort of work really needs a manual.
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