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JD 4400 PTO Problem

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JD Brian
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2001-08-07          30752

I have a JD 4400 HST that I connect to a Bearcat PTO Chipper. When chipping is complete I reduce the tractor rpm, wait 2 minutes, then disengage the PTO (per instruction from dealer). My problem is that the PTO does not "free wheel" when disengaged. The PTO stops immediately and causes the chipper to come to a screeching halt. The JD dealer assumes that the PTO break is being applied upon disengagement, but does not know why.Any thoughts would be appreciated.

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JD 4400 PTO Problem

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Chris in IN
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2001-08-07          30756

The PTO on mine does the same thing. This is what the brake on the pto is for. ....

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JD 4400 PTO Problem

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DanaT
Join Date: Jun 1999
Posts: 138 Clay Center,Ks
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2001-08-07          30757

I have a 4300. On mine there is 3 postions for the PTO. all the way forward pto engaged, middle detent is pto off but free wheeling (depends on how far the lever is pulled back) the closer you get to the last detent the brake will stop the pto. all the way back (last detent) pto is locked in stoped position.
The middle detent, mover the lever very slowly and you should be able to hear you pto driven machince slow down. I hope I helped you guys, at least this is how it works on mine. ....

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JD 4400 PTO Problem

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turfman
Join Date: Mar 2007
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2001-08-08          30763

there is a chance that you are doing some serious damage to your tractor. There is a PTO brake on our machines......the flywheel in a chipper is very heavy. they make a clutch device that mounts on the shaft it will allow the flywheeel to spin down without tearing out the clutch. I will find out the name of the thing for you and try to post it tomorrow. I know it works because a buddy of mine just got one on his JD4300. I will ask him. ....

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JD 4400 PTO Problem

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Rob Munach
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2001-08-08          30764

I guess JD is simply asking for the transmissions on these machines to get broken by installing a PTO brake. I can't even imagine the stress it must put on the machine to instantly stop a chipper flywheel or a bushog for that matter. ....

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JD 4400 PTO Problem

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2001-08-08          30773

I think 'over-running' clutches are built in to PTO drives on most modern tractors. An over-running clutch allows the PTO shaft to turn faster than the PRO drive. Without an over-running clutch, the inertia from a heavy rotary cutter can still drive a tractor forward even when the transmission clutch is disengaged. Tractors without over-running clutches, such as Ford 8N's, have been pushed into things or over banks. Many people who have older tractors install an external over-running clutch, but such things aren't necessary on most newer tractors. I don't have a PTO break, but I imagine the design is such that the brake can't be engaged while the drive also is engaged. I do imagine that a brake would wear out quickly using it for heavy stopping of a chipper or cutter. It's probably better to let things spin down most times, and then apply the brake to make sure an implement has fully stopped. ....

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JD 4400 PTO Problem

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Rob Munach
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2001-08-08          30790

Tom G.
It is interesting that you called it a PTO "break" as that is exactly what it will do sometime in the future. I believe only modern tractors without live PTO's have the overrunning clutch. On my 790, if I cut the engine while in gear, clutch out, the PTO engaged and the bushog spinning, the bushog will push the tractor. As such, I doubt I have an overrunning clutch, but I do have live PTO. ....

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JD 4400 PTO Problem

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2001-08-09          30805

Ops: Break the brake. Too much reliance on the spell checker, but the usage is ironic in this context. There always seems to be some confusion with the terms live and independent PTO. I'm not sure I've entirely got them clear. I think you're right that live PTO (meaning if TX clutch can be disengaged without stopping the PTO) largely eliminates the need for PTO over-running clutches. Live PTO on gear tractors generally means having a two-stage clutch. Transmission driven PTO usually aren't considered 'live' and do have potential for the PTO shaft to 'back-feed' the TX when the clutch is disengaged. I guess what I meant is that most modern transmission driven PTO's have a built-in over-running clutch. I think that gear tractors now generally have live PTO, so in that sense most modern gear tractors don’t have an over-running clutch. There were two transmissions available for my mid-80's Ford 1710. The non-synchromesh TX used a TX driven PTO and had an internal over-running clutch, while the synchromesh TX used a live PTO and didn't have the clutch. I guess that if a tractor doesn't have one or the other design, the alternatives are to get an external clutch or shift to neutral when stopping. One or the other does sound like a pretty good idea. Of course, a PTO brake isn’t going to do much if an external over-running clutch is mounted. I still can’t see much need for a PTO brake, but then I’m always open to education. Dang terminology! I think an older version of ‘live PTO’ meant whether the hydraulics worked without the PTO engaged. ....

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JD 4400 PTO Problem

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Stan in Calif
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 47 Sacramento Valley- Glenn County
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2001-08-09          30820

Tom-
I don't have a need for a pto brake, either. I think the manufacturer is the one who benefits the most- maybe it will keep him out of court.
The topic of pto brake recently came up over at the other place, and it went quite differently- very interesting. ....

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JD 4400 PTO Problem

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Ken Butner
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2001-08-10          30839

Guys, I agree with Dana Trumpp. I have a 4300 and the PTO lever has three positions (Run-Neutral-Brake). When I am shutting down a PTO driven implement, I always reduce my engine to an idle, wait a couple seconds, then I move my PTO lever to the MIDDLE POSITION. I allow the implement to coast to a stop. Then and ONLY then do I pull the PTO lever all the way back to the brake postion. Folks, they designed the tractor so you can stop an implement slowly before slamming on the pto brake so that nothing would BREAK! -Ken ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2001-08-10          30843

Yes, the JD design seems OK and probably a good idea when used in the manner Ken describes. I guess I'm not impatience enough to feel a need for a brake, but maybe it is a good idea for manufacturers to protect owners against impatience or negligence. I first thought a better design might be a smart brake that wouldn't fully engage at higher PRO speeds since there would be less potential for mechanical damage. Then I thought I could imagine situations where you'd want an implement to come to a screeching halt, even if it meant breaking something. The JD version seems like a good design the more I think about it. On the other hand, I think there are some designs that don't give an operator any choice. The break engages ten seconds after the engine is shut down no matter what. The PTO can’t be turned by hand when the tractor is off, and of course implements shouldn't be attached when the tractor is running. Apparently owners with large rotary cutters have a hard time lining up the PTO splines. Neither the tractor end nor the implement end can be turned by hand. Seems like such a design may be so safe that it isn't, but maybe there's a safe way around these owner problems. ....

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JD Brian
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2001-08-10          30855

Thanks to all who have responded to my post. I have the feeling that by the time I resolve this problem I'll know more about PTO systems than I ever imagined. I should mention that the first 2 times I used the chipper; the flywheel was allowed to wind down slowly without resistence from the tractor.

I agree with all of you who point out that having the PTO brake stop a 200 lb. flywheel will eventually result in damaged equipment. I have tried to disengage using the middle indent as suggested by Dana and Ken (no luck).

I'm fortunate to have an excellent JD dealer currently working with technical support to formulate a solution. This weekend the dealer is comming to my house for a live demonstration of the problem. I'll keep you informed of my progress.

Thanks again for your thoughts. ....

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Renee
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2001-09-21          31928

I know all you guys are probably not interested in what a lady has to say about these different PTOs in tractors, but my dealer tells me there are (today) three different PTO systems used in tractors. One, the most basic, is the constant transmission-driven PTO. John Deere has two tractors in production that use this system, the 790 2WD without power steering and the 4100 gear. Neither of these tractors have the 2-stage clutch or over-running clutches, thus the implement can actually push the tractor along. This is the least expensive unit to build. (JD uses this system because all of the tractors competing with them in this class use that type PTO). The second, an upgrade, is the continuous live PTO with 2-stage clutch and over-running clutch. This one also requires using the clutch pedal to engage and disengage, but doesn't push the tractor along when the clutch pedal is fully depressed. (This is the one used on JD's 790 2WD with power steering, 790 4wd, and 990 2wd or 4wd, as well as a number of other brands). The top of the line is the independent live PTO. This one works totally independent of the transmission, and nothing we do with the clutch pedal has any affect on it (those of us with JD HSTs don't worry about that though, 'cause we don't have clutch pedals). The independent live PTO is turning when the handle engages it, and stops when the handle disengages it. It won't push the tractor, because it it not dependent on the transmission for its drive source. Now... I have no idea what I just said, it's just what Tom wrote down and emailed to me so I could go in here and look like I was intelligent. ....

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