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trbomax
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 133 Starvation Lake, Mi
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2004-04-25          84213

I have 2 ditches running thru my property that converge into 1. Over the last 30 years they have eroded to a width of 30', from a begining 10'.The banks are about 8' tall.One is getting really close [10'] to my barn.What I propose to do is build a seawall on each side of the ditch to prevent any more erosion.My plan is to sink 4x4 posts on 4' centers,tie them back about 2' from the top,run 2x6 stringers [horiz.] behind them on 16"centers,then use 3/4" treated plywood for the actual wall with the plywood stood up verticaly. The plywood joints would be backed up on the inside with 1x6 [vert.].I will capit with 2x8.Ripstop tarps would be stapled into position on the ply. before backfilling, to prevent seepage.I think 4 &6 crushed limestone would be good against the inside,with a topping of dirt about 1' deep.I will use 1/2" rebar, 20' long for the tiebacks, drilling thru the 4x4,and bending the end over.At the other end, I will bend a 90 about 2' back,pointing up.Drop 2 cement blocks over this and bind the whole thing together with an 80# bag of concrete. Do I have a good plan, or am I missing something?

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trbomax
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 133 Starvation Lake, Mi
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2004-04-25          84214

I should add that I am keeping the bottom 8' wide,which according to a 1980 survey, is 2' wider than it was then.Fall of the bottom will not be altered.I have already built 2 bridges to faciliate crossing,useing 3 - 6"w x 8"t steel beams on 3' centers.I decked these with 2x12 treated to a width of 8',with double 2x12 running parallel to the beams where my tractor wheels will run. The retaining walls wil run along the bank where the bridges are,thus decreasing the actual span to 10' at those points.The total length of the walls will be about 80' on each side.I will angle them away from the stream bed at the ends to maintain a directional flow.These areas will be rip-rapped with large stone as well. ....

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blizzard
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 282 Central Maine
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2004-04-25          84226

You must have some really nice soil to have so much erosion in just a few years. Here there is so much clay and stone that would never happen unless the ditch had an awful lot of water flowing through it.
First I'd check with your county agricultural extension service to see what info they may have about this problem.
My feeling would be to forgo the plywood (PT wood is expensive and is prohibited in some areas), and use stone or crushed rock to shore up the sides, especially near the barn. Another solution might be to use a culvert to handle the water, around here 20" metal culvert is about $200 for 24' lengths.
Has the ditch eroded deeper over the years? Is there a lot of water flowing through it normally or only seasonally? Do you have a picture? I'm assuming there is only a little pitch, and perhaps fairly heavy seasonal flow, and the increase in width is due mostly to a fine soil.
Hope this helps some...
bliz ....

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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3583 iowa
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2004-04-25          84248

Sounds like you've got a real problem to solve. I'd have to agree with Blizzard especially on the PT plywood, a mid sized city would'nt let me build my Grandkids a playhouse with PT 4x6 skids under it. Not seeing your ditch has me shooting in the dark a bit, but my feeling would be two to four inch crushed limesotne on the bare ditch walls first then topped off by big riprap six to ten inch would outlast any wood structure and cost less too. Sealing off the side of your plywood wall with plastic is only going to cause excess water to seek it's exit on the side of the wall where you don't want any water flow and cause erosion behind your wall where as the crushed limestone covered with heavy riprap will let the subsurface water find its way to the stream thru the stone and not erode behind it. Just my thoughts, best of luck, Frank. ....

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trbomax
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 133 Starvation Lake, Mi
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2004-04-25          84263

Good point about the plastic.I guess that part of the plan is gone! I actually have about 1200' to do, and I was going to use the stone thing on most of it.The PT isnt a problem,Ive had it shoring my bridge anchors for a while now.Tile is not an option,I wish it was,but we get so much trash floating down this thing when it rains that we'd have a dam in short order.It will go from 6" deep to 7' deep in 20 minutes when it rains hard,thats why it eroded out over the last 20 odd years. When we built the house in 1972,it was a stream,now it drains acres of parking lot 2 miles upstream. ....

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blizzard
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 282 Central Maine
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2004-04-25          84268

Though it may depend upon your zoning regulations and how corrupt your local city/town boards are, you may have a case that the parking lot owner has to make things right for you. I believe if construction adds appreciably to the downstream runoff there is compensation, in the form of 'make it right' to those landowners affected. Do you have any neighbors who are also experiencing this problem? Always helps to have multiple damaged parties. Perhaps the solution is as simple as the parking lot owner creating a holding pond which would release water from rainstorms/snowmelt in a controlled manner. I don't think yopu should bear the expense of a problem created by someone else, especially a business/parking lot. The appropriate zoning/permit boards should have regulations that protect you.
Good Luck with your problem.
bliz ....

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grassgod
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 566 ct
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2004-04-25          84271

trbomax - i have built many walls. first off defintly check with your town inland/ wetlands zoning person. If you dont do this with their permission, they have the abilty to make your remove it.

secondly, i would use 6x6's instead of the 4x4's. I would use concrete cinderblocks. i would beef up the rebar to 3/4 or 1" & i would use more then 80 lbs of conrete at the end of each rebar.

be safe not sorry ....

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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2004-04-25          84273

If your town/county/state wetland zoning doesn't know about your situation DON'T TELL THEM! They're just as likely to come by and declare your entire property a wetland and effectively take it from you. ....

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trbomax
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 133 Starvation Lake, Mi
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2004-04-25          84274

Without getting int a very lengthly story,all the above has happened,lawsuits,holding ponds,county engineers,epa,whatevr.The bottom line was that my attornies dug up some ancient documents that show that the drainage that crossesour property was never turned over to thecounty or state,hence it never became public domain.There are only about 15 miles of drainage in our state that are that way,our 1/2 mi. is part of it.As a result, the county or state has no say as to what we do,so long as we do not restrict the flow to less than what the base survey shows in 1983 as a cross section when we filed the original suit.I have letters and documents to this effect,in one of them the county engineer states "you may do as you see fit with it" .All of this is still legal precident, and even though its 20 yrs old, is binding. ....

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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3583 iowa
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2004-04-26          84315

Trbomax; As Blizzard said, surely others up and down strem are having the same problem caused by the parking lot drainage. Who was there first, you or the parking lot? Around here we have lots of pond construction using existing creeks as a water source. By law you cannot when building a pond back water onto public right of way or another persons property or submerge a pre esisting tile outlet. So common sense tells me that the pond backup issue should also work in reverse that if the parking lot has caused the problem then the owners of the lot or lots should have documents on file somewhere at the courthouse stating that code was followed regarding drainage from their lot no matter who was there first. There is a similar issue in a nearby city here where housing developments were built leagaly above the floodplain 25 yrs ago, but since then the old downtown busineses have been starved to death by the superstores going to the suburbs. The superstores and the streets required to get to them have since paved over God only knows how many acres of land thwe now drain into the creek thru the 25 yr. old development to the point now where a 2 inch rain is a major flood problem. I really haven't kept up on that situation enough to tell you how it's going, but it has been dragging on for years. Best of luck. Frank. ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2004-04-26          84325

Riprap is what I've seen used around here for erosion control. Of course, solving erosion problems in a waterway often results in silting one place and erosion further downstream.

Seven foot of moving water in an 8' bank sounds like a liability problem that was caused by somebody else and I guess that's another possible approach of a legal type. There was something like that near where we lived when I was in the second grade and it's likely not a good thing for small children to have access to. Trouble was that it sure was fun to play in. Solving the damming may be another issue worth solving. Wonder where the trash comes from?
....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2004-04-26          84335

I guess I'm going to be the 'new idea guy' today.

We have successfully used corrugated steel sheets for similar problems on golf courses for years now.

It is sort of like the stuff commonly used for agricultural buildings but heavier material. It has about a 2" - 3" square'ish rib pattern to it. You just stand it up in place and push it down into the soil with a B/H/ or loader. The next sheet interlocks, via a small overlap in the matching shape, with the next sheet as you go. It is normally cut to matching height and capped with a formed channel which is welded in place. Tie-backs consist of huge 'screws' about 8" in diameter and 4' - 8' (depending on height of wall) that are threaded back into native soils behind the wall. When finished the whole thing is back-filled. It can be installed vertically or leaned back up to 45 degrees. IT goes up fast and is very long life stuff.

Best of luck. ....

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yooperpete
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1413 Northern Michigan
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2004-04-26          84358

What Murf was describing is something similar or the same as what some people have done for a seawall along the Lake Huron shoreline. That stuff really works but is not the most beautiful thing to look at from some points of viewing. Back filling with a number of loads of large rocks will do the same thing but in a more natural setting. ....

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trbomax
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 133 Starvation Lake, Mi
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2004-04-26          84401

We were here first,and the thing that you are discribing is just what happened.Difference is,immediatly downstream of us is a county park that they built a dam in and created a pond.This is one thing that slows down the drainage now.Upstream of us, the two property owners were dupped into letting the county "channelize" there property back 20 yrs ago when this all started.By the time that I found out that we [in effect] own the drainage, it was too late for them and now they have an even bigger sewer than I do,But since we now know who "owns" it, the county has washed its hands of the whole thing, and told us its our situation.I dont really care what they do, because when I wanted to fight the development in 1983 no one was interested, so all the legal expense went on me.At this point in time, and at my age, Im just going to do what I was told I could do and basically to hell with everyone else.I got several estimates to fix this drainage on my property from $40k to $60k.This is out of the question, so we just bought the equipment and are doing it.I wanted the equipment anyway to play with up north at the other property, so I took advantage of the situation,or so my wife says! ....

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trbomax
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 133 Starvation Lake, Mi
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2004-04-26          84405

murf, Thats sheetpile. Ive got 400' of it along the river at our marina. It was really expensive when it was done [1975]$200/ft., and now is about $1000/ft.Thats a real permanent solution, but as was stated, not very pretty in a residential setting.Im in a situation where what ever I do only has to look good for 15yrs topps,and by then I wont worry about it anyway,my kid can! ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2004-04-27          84466

That makes things a little clearer, and yes I was thinking of sheetpile, but they also make it in lighter duty (thinner gauge) material, I have also used just plain galvanized (or painted for that matter) roofing for the same purpose, it works just fine and is CHEAP.

If you have relatively good access you could easily build yourself some plywood forms and have a readymix cement truck pour you some huge slabs about 4" thick and full of 6" steel mesh, basically big patio slabs. If you place a scrap of chain at the top corners picking them up and placing them with the FEL is real easy. You could either stand them up or just lean them against the bank. It will be a fast easy solution that you can go at your own pace with. You also have the option of colouring the concrete any colour you (or your wife) wishes.

Best of luck. ....

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trbomax
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 133 Starvation Lake, Mi
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2004-04-27          84482

the concrete slabs are a real good idea. How much does concrete weigh per yard ?
That would be a lot easier and maybe cheaper,not to mention permanent. ....

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trbomax
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 133 Starvation Lake, Mi
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2004-04-27          84483

now you got me going! I could even make a plank design on the face of the slabs,color the concrete ,and put wire rope loops on the backside for tiebacks !If I put my 4x4 posts behind them to stabilize while backfilling,I could even cap it all with wood to make the wife happy ! ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2004-04-27          84484

For rough calculations use 4,000 pounds per cubic yard of concrete.

If you want it broken down a little further, that would be 148.15 pounds per cubic foot, or 0.086 pounds per cubic inch.

If you use a 1,000 pound slab for instance as a maximum size limit (for lifting and carrying ease), and you want a 4" thick slab, 10' long, that would mean 4"x120"=480 SQUARE inches, 0.086 x 480 sq. in. = 41.28 pounds per running inch of slab (width-wise). 1,000# / 41.28 = ~24".

So a slab 10' long, 4" thick and 24" wide would weigh about 1,000 pounds plus a little for steel mesh.

Another consideration, for costing the project out, would be that a single yard of concrete would yield a slab 4" thick, 10' long and about 8' long.

Best of luck. ....

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Murf
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2004-04-27          84485

If you use rough cut lumber for the forms and spray the inside face of the form with concrete colouring product It would come out of the form already looking that way.

Most importantly, coloured concrete will be maintenance-free for life, the wood capping may not holdup well to debris coming downstream or be loosened by shifting of the wall.

Best of luck. ....

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trbomax
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 133 Starvation Lake, Mi
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2004-04-27          84513

Thanks ! I'm going to do some serious research on this. ....

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beagle
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1333 Michigan
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2004-04-27          84537

If the water is moving, you need to get the bottom of the wall below the sediment bed of the creek, or the bed will erode out from the bottom of the wall. You also need embedment at the bottom of the wall to resolve the tie back force at the top, otherwise the bottom of the wall fails, ( pushes out ). For embedment, you should have at least as much in the soil as the height of the retaining wall.

If you are at the water table, jetting 5" cedar posts into the ground with a water jet is a simple and fast way to set the structure of the wall. For a water jet, use a 10' piece of 3/4' pipe on a 2" pump. The water jet will blow the hole as quickly as you drop the post into it. The challenge is holding the post in place until the soil sets the post after you remove the jet. Once the posts are set, use the stringers at 2' centers vertically as you described. I then use galvanized barn sheeting( about $.50 / sq ft ) and again jetted it in behind the stringers. Cap the whole thing off with treated 2 x 8's.

The setback of your deadmen is deternined by the height of the wall and the angle of repose of the backfill soil. As a rule of thumb, come back from the wall at least as far as the wall is high above the bottom of the ditch and then add as necessary to make sure your deadmen are in virgin soil. There are two types of deadmen depending on how they develop their resisitance to movement. You can use passive earth pressure, or depend on the contact area of the deadman against movement. You don't need a lot of mass, just a large contact area to resist movement. Often, a continuous ditch is dug along the setback distance and filled with concrete and 2 rows of no.4 bars. Tie the posts back with rebar or stainless wire rope. It is good to slightly pre-stess the tie backs before backfilling, otherwise the posts could move until the tie back is stressed. The other type is mass. Dig a hole the proper distance back and fill with concrete. Add a 3/4" stainless ring with 8" of embedment in the concrete.

To calculate the tie back force at the top of the wall, it can be approximated by the following:

P (force/ft of wall)=[(height x width) / 2] x 125lbs/cu.ft.
This resultant force is applied to the wall by the retained soil about 1/3 down from the top of the wall. This is the ideal elevation for the tie-backs. This is per foot of wall, so multiply this by your post spacing for your tie back force.

Height... is the height of the retained soil
Width.... is the width of the retained soil, which is dependant on the angle of repose. Assume 45 degrees conservatively, and the width is 75% of the height.

Looks like a mess at first, but you need to hold back the weight of a wedge of soil. Keep in mind that any vertical loads along the wall will result in additional horizontal reactions on the wall. Add 30% to the tie back force for any vertical loads along the wall. Add a good geo-fabric behind the wall before backfilling to allow water to pass through but not soil. You want to avoid building any hydraulic pressure behind the wall. ....

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trbomax
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 133 Starvation Lake, Mi
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2004-04-28          84593

Exelent information ! how long will the steel sideing last ? Why cedar posts instead of treated 4x4? On the subject of steel against treated wood, Ive always been told not to do it since the metals in the treatment cause accelerated corrosion where the wood contacts the steel. ....

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beagle
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Posts: 1333 Michigan
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2004-04-28          84597

In many places, treated wood is not allowed in waterway contruction. Cedar will hold up extremely well without warping, twisting, or rotting. It will also not leak toxins into the waterway. The galvanized barn siding should last at least 20 years. We haven't replaced any for the past 15. You are right about treated wood and metal. The posts and stringers are cedar. The treated cap won't effect the siding.

This makes for a nice looking wall, and are pretty easy and cost effective to construct. At last years material prices, they were running about $9/ft.

Good luck ....

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beagle
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2004-04-28          84598

In many places, treated wood is not allowed in waterway contruction. Cedar will hold up extremely well without warping, twisting, or rotting. It will also not leak toxins into the waterway. The galvanized barn siding should last at least 20 years. We haven't replaced any for the past 15. You are right about treated wood and metal. The posts and stringers are cedar. The treated cap won't effect the siding.

This makes for a nice looking wall, and are pretty easy and cost effective to construct. At last years material prices, they were running about $9/ft.

Good luck ....

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