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Glenn Fitzgerald
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2003-01-05          46981

Over the summer I had a Lopi Endeavor stove installed in my new cabin. They used 6" stovepipe straight up through the roof with the top of the stovepipe 2'above the peak. The stovepipe is approximately 22-23'to the roof and another 4-5'from the roof to the very top. I'm burning hard maple which I cut last year and split in the fall. I'm getting an odor in the cabin and a black residue under the stovepipe on the roof. Should the wood be seasoned longer after splitting? Does anyone see a problem in the installation? The neighbors in the area say the wood is seasoned enough-the dealor that I purchased it from and installed it says "the wood should be seasoned for two years"(the wood he burns in the store looks as if its kiln dried)? Does the required seasoning differ in situations?

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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
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2003-01-05          46983

My primary source of heat is my wood stove. Hardwood can take more than a year to season properly, but should be ok to use as you describe. The soot outside wouldn't concern me much, but the odor inside may indicate a fire that is not hot enough.
I find that if I burn soft woods I can use the input air control to keep the fire "quiet", but if I am loaded with california almond (seasoned one year)the stove barely gets enough air to create the necessary heat to burn this very dense, heavy wood. Sometimes I have to crack the door open to get it going good.
The fact that I live almost a mile above sea level does play into this. I have had to remove the catalytic combuster because it simply will not work at this altitude with very hard wood. Before I took it out I was getting sort of wet, smoky odors in the house and a very rapid build-up up of creosote in the chimney.
Try a couple loads of softer dry woods, like old scrap lumber, or open the damper and let 'er rip and see if that helps. ....

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Peters
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2003-01-05          46988

The build up in the stove indicative of wet wood.
Wood in the round can take for ever to dry. Wood is not split for asthetics but to aid in the drying. I always try to split wood in situ (where it fell) so I don't have to deal with the bark waste and the wood begins to dry immediately.
Drying wood also depends on the climate. In Nevada the dry climate will help to dry the wood. Here in the south I am not sure they know what dry wood is. I have had wood sitting here 3 years or more and not really dry.
Wet wood is generally easier to split also.
With the long chimney, which I assume is uninsulate, the chimney will not heat up properly and will not burn up the creosode thus the reside.
Remember that it takes a lot of BTU's to evaporate a pound of water. The wetter the wood the less heat you are getting for the work that you have already expended. ....

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kay
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2003-01-05          47001

As you probably suspect from the good replies, you are burning wet wood. I burn mostly red and white oak, and it is not really dry until 3 years after splitting and drying under roof. I can always tell when around the wood burner if I have wood that is only two years old. There just isn't the same heat given off.

Keep working at it, but it sounds like your installation is okay. Straight up is best for a chimney. Burn as hot as you can, and with as little wood as you can get by with. You don't want the stove to get so hot that it shuts the damper down, as this just makes a smoldering fire and creates a lot of creosote from cool smoke in the chimney. Good luck, and keep working at it. It takes a while to learn the tricks for each stove. I'm on my third one, and thought I knew everything after the first one. Not! I have a Vermont Castings Defiant now, and I had to learn its tricks the same as the other two. Tonight I am testing out some dead elm that has not been drying undercover, but needed to be cleaned up. It seems to be burning okay so far. ....

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Glenn Fitzgerald
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2003-01-05          47007

Thanks for your good input guys, it's greatly appreciated! I guess I'll have to buy some good seasoned wood.That hurts because the whole property is covered with hardwoods but none split! It's making sense,the cabin isn't insulated yet and it does seem to be worse when it's colder outside. We stayed in the cabin on new years eve and it got down to about 26 degrees F that night. The odor got kinda bad after we went to bed, when the stove was on a slow burn.So I probably shouldn't do that until we insulate the roof. It can't be too good for the body to breath in that odor for an extended period of time. We're very anxious to stay in the new cabin but maybe we should wait for spring when it's a bit warmer. Have you ever experienced the odor with your own stove? Do you find that woodburning stoves dry out items in the house such as woodwork or furniture? Do you keep a kettle on the stovetop to replemish some of the moisture? I'm pleasantly surprised to find that there's practically no smoke odor from the stove at all! ....

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TomG
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2003-01-06          47019

Around here where it can get very cold most everybody who heats with wood use insulated chimneys. I know very little about wood stoves but I suspect that a good run of external insulated chimney would draw better than plain stove pipe when it's real cold if fire's not real hot.

People with actual experience would know better than I, but maybe a different chimney solve the problem when the only other solution is waiting a year or so for the wood to dry. But then maybe just splitting the wood more and stocking the stove differently would make a hotter fire, although maybe a hotter fire isn't a good solution when you want to go to bed.
....

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StephenR
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2003-01-06          47023

Kay
This is so ironic that this topic came up. I have a Vermont Castings Encore(next size down from the Defiant). I've had it for 4 seasons now and I've went through 3 catalysts! The first one went 2 seasons the second one. Now the third only went half a season! My wood is relativly dry, but it seems like the catalyst gets fly ash on it and over heats causing it to break apart.
Fortunatly all were under warranty, but this next one is not and it costs ~$140. Also Vermont Castings is hvaing huge price increases. It seems to me if they just put a metal grill on the catalyst it wouldn't crumble apart. I just noticed this last night.
P.S. I was cleaning the fly ash every 2 weeks or so. ....

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DRankin
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2003-01-06          47034

Glenn, if everything is as it should be, there should be no odor from the stove.
Experimentation is required here. With some types of wood (or maybe states of dryness) you can adjust the airflow so that it will run all night, others not.

With my current supply of hardwood I usually have to leave the damper open and I still get 5 or 6 hours of clean, odor free heat. I have not found it hard to get up once a night to fling some more wood in the stove.

If you get a cheap dial type oven thermometer and set it of top of the stove you can get some sort of gauge on how much heat it is actually producing. ....

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DRankin
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2003-01-06          47037

StephenR, we have two earthstoves in the family here.
Both came equipped with metal encased combustors.
They fell apart anyway. Now we have some real sturdy empty metal casings! ....

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StephenR
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2003-01-06          47040

Mark
I just talked with the Vermont Castings dealer. By what he told me, the only thing I can think of is that the wood was slightly wet from the rain. So I'm running it with out the catalyst and the glass is incredibly dirty. The dealer has told me that it is even more inefficient than the old wood burning stoves. He is willing to work with me about the price, which is now $179, since I just got it this year. ....

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DRankin
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2003-01-06          47041

There must be some serious design differences between my stove and yours. Do you have some sort of automatic dampener? ....

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StephenR
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2003-01-06          47044

Mark,
It has a temperature activated fresh air supply, which I'm not sure if that is the same thing as a damper. It is supposed to keep the temperature at a relative constant rate. I don't know what it uses as a reference though. I love everthing about the stove, top load, easy and dust free ash removal, looks good, stays warm all night. Just this dang catalyst is driving me nuts. ....

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DavesTractor
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2003-01-06          47047

A rule of thumb we use for hardwood is that it dries one inch a year. If you take a 12" round and split it once, it will dry in 3 years (6" thick and drying from both sides). Split it twice and it will dry faster. We can actually beat that rate a bit as we get months of 90 degree and hotter (115 sometimes) heat with low humidity, so we can dry oak or almond in one season. Very dry wood burns real clean. ....

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Gary L.
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2003-01-06          47048

The smell you are experiencing may be from the stove 'seasoning'. I also have a LOPI stove and during the first fire of each season, we get a very distinct smell from the stove. After the first hot fire, there is no longer a problem. It smelled the worst during the first fire we ever had in the stove. This may be the odor you are experiencing. Get the fire good and hot and you shouldn't have any problems.
....

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kay
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2003-01-06          47049

Stephen R
""I've had it for 4 seasons now and I've went through 3 catalysts! The first one went 2 seasons the second one. Now the third only went half a season! My wood is relativly dry, but it seems like the catalyst gets fly ash on it and over heats causing it to break apart.""

I have been wondering how long the catalytic converter would last, and how I could tell when it wasn't working anymore. I haven't cleaned it at all (do you brush the fly ash off?) in the time I have used it (Dec '01 to April '02, and Oct. '02 to now) which is running steady. When it falls apart, I take it that pieces fall out of it? That is certainly going to be obvious when and if that happens. I should be getting another one soon, to keep as a spare.

Thanks for your input. I think the damper is simply a mechanical linkage that you set higher or lower to get more or less heat out of the stove by controlling the air. I don't think there is any bi-metalic strip that adjusts the air automatically (I used to have an Ashley stove that would do that). I also have a wood boiler that has a water temp sensor that controls an electric motor operated damper. ....

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Bruce Pirger
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2003-01-06          47055

Hi Glenn: I installed a new Lopi Liberty in my new house this fall as well. Like you, I have about 25' of chimney, the bottom 7' or so uninsulated single wall. My wood is somewhat wet, dropped over a year ago but blocked and split just this past fall. I have more soot accumulating on my glass door than I like and I am surprised with the amount of creosote I seem to have accumulating in my chimney. Since I am not yet living in the house, I pull the draft all the way out (closed) on the Liberty at night....and it burns slowly and cool...the stack temperature on the uninsulated stovepipe about 4' over the stove reads about 250 or so...cool. When I first burned, I had considerable oder from the stove and the pipe...but it is now gone for me.

I do think the trick is dry wood. I try to burn the stove as hot as I can when I am around...hopefully will clean out the chimney that way.

The wood shed is a priority for me to build this spring...and to force myself to order about 5 cords of split wood to season this summer/fall...even though I live on 44 acres of woods! There's only so much time...and I have to finish the house before I play with the firewood! ....

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kay
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2003-01-07          47104

Two have mentioned about dirty glass on the woodstve. I too had dirty glass upon the first burns in the Defiant stove. I cleaned the glass the first time, and it was a real chore. After the second time, I sprayed PAM on (stuff used on cookie sheets, and frying pans, so food won't stick). That seemed to help a lot, and the stove went a long time before I cleaned the glass again. Much, much easier to clean too. Now its been a long time, and while the glass is a bit dirty, one can still see through it. ....

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slowrev
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2003-01-07          47105

I use a single edge razor blade to scrape clean the glass on my fireplace glass doors, then finish off with some grease cutting cleaner. About once a week and it is fine.

....

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Peters
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2003-01-07          47107

I had tried everything from razor blades to simply green on the windows. I picked up a bottle of Zap the other day at the dollar store.
I had not cleaned the window on my pellet stove all last year. I tried the Zap on it and the black wiped off in on pass. I have tried it on other thing with mixed success as with every cleaner but it sits by the stove now.
Peters ....

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slowrev
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2003-01-07          47114

Thanks for the tip on the Zap. I will get some. The razor blades were the best option I had found up till your reccomendation.

....

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kvh1942
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2003-01-08          47155

Glenn, Gary L. is right on re. the smell with a new stove. I installed a Quadrafire last fall, and the owner's manual discussed this. It has to do with burning off cutting fluids/oils used in the mfg. process and curing paint. Since you have a lot of exposed inside pipe, it may take a hot fire. Ken ....

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Peters
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2003-01-10          47301

I repainted a stove once with Stove paint and it did not smell very good either. With of the stove it is like a new engine and there are a lot of fumes until it bakes on. ....

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Peters
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2003-01-10          47302

I repainted a stove once with Stove paint and it did not smell very good either. With of the stove it is like a new engine and there are a lot of fumes until it bakes on. ....

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jeff-s
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2003-01-11          47329

Hi everyone,
I have a catalytic converter in my Kuma wood stove, and have found out the best way to run them. Kuma stoves are sold on the west coast, and will heat a 3500 sq. ft. house. I have never had to replace the catalytic converter, and its six years old. The first thing you need for a catalytic converter stove is a Rutland wood stove thermometer. Place this on your stove pipe, 12 inches above your stove. I bought mine at wall-mart for $6. This is a must for a catalytic stove! If you run your stove to cold you will coat your glass, catalytic converter and your pipe with creosote. To hot and you will damage your catalytic converter and could damage your stove pipe. When you over heat your stove pipe, you will get a nasty smell from the paint on your stove pipe. Never run your stove pipe temperature over 500 degrees very long, 350 to 400 degrees is best.
I clean my glass with that orange cleaner in a bottle from Sam’s club every time I start my wood stove. It’s a lot easier than waiting a week or so to clean. I then bypass my catalytic converter when I start my stove, and let the heat go straight up the stove pipe. Also I open any air inlets all the way. It’s best to use the white printed news paper and kindling with some dry split wood in 3” to 4” thin pieces that will burn faster than large pieces of wood to get the stove pipe to 400 plus degrees. I crack the door a little bit till the stove pipe reaches 400 plus degrees. I then shut off the hot air going directly up the pipe, so it will go thru the catalytic converter. If all goes right, your stove pipe temp should keep climbing, or stay a little over 400 degrees. If it gets close to 500 degrees, shut off some inlet air to keep it around 400. If your pipe temp goes down to 325 degrees or lower, crack the door, and open the catalytic converter bypass to get your stove pipe temp back to 400 degrees. If your stove glass gets black, your stove is to cold. On a good startup, your glass should stay clean. It takes a little practice to get the hang of it, but it does works great! When my stove is at the right temp, and some flames going into the catalytic converter it glows a bright orange color, and I try to keep the stove pipe temp around 350 to 450 degrees. After two to three hours or so, you can run it a little cooler. If I run my wood stove pipe at 450 degrees for more than two hours, it will get 88+ degrees in my house. Sometimes I need to open some windows to cool it down.
Jeff S
....

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StephenR
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2003-01-15          47544

Mark, Kay, & Everyone,

An update to my burning up the catalysts. The manager of the local wood stove store said it was overheating. I never run the stove more than 550 degrees (griddle temp), and it's rated to run up to 750 degrees, although not for extended periods of time.

The conclusion I came to was that in order to get the most efficiency, I'd engaged the catalyst after 350 degrees. But to get the temperature up, I would open the door allowing a rush of fresh air in. This must have caused internal temperatures soar while the griddle temp raised slowly, thus causing the premature disintegration of the catalyst.

Live and learn, hopefully this will save someone the expense of a $180 catalyst. Fortunately the manager pro-rated the catalyst and only charged me $40 for a new one. Needless to say, I know where I will continue to do my business. ....

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Peters
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2003-01-15          47570

You definately need to be measuring the temperature on the stove pipe as close to the catalyst as possible. ....

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StephenR
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2003-01-16          47613

Peters,
The Vermont Castings manual states griddle temperature. ....

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Peters
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2003-01-16          47621

I would buy a thermometer and measure both places. You can over heat the pipe with a lot of draft and still have the stove relatively cool. ....

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Chief
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2003-01-18          47725

Why not just take the catalytic converter out all together? Sounds like it is a big pain in the butt. I use a Fisher wood stove. They are hard to find but very well built. But if you live in one of the socialist states that requires this EPA crap .........guess there is not alot you can do. ....

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Canuck
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2003-01-18          47729

Wow, what a lot of good information on this topic. I have heated with wood stoves for a long time and when I got my tractor, wanted a firewood splitter to make the work easier. My best general advice is: 1- get a newer stove as they are more efficient ( more heat out of less fuel); 2- make sure you are burning dry wood. I have 3-5 years of wood drying under cover and won't burn wood that isn't at least 18 months drying; 3- get a hot fire. Usually this means burning a smaller fire. You get your creosote buildup from cooler, smouldering fires such as when you damper it down at night. This is dangerous! I don't see anybody talking about keeping the chimney clean!!!! You absolutely MUST CLEAN your chimney at least once a year. This means getting the proper brush and rods and cleaning the whole thing. Its not convenient but it is healthy work and nothing beats a blazing wood fire. ....

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Canuck
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2003-01-18          47736

Trust me to forget another critical thing! ALWAYS have an opening to the outside when burning ( we have a cat door) and a carbon monoxide alarm (along with your already installed smoke alarm) if you are sleeping in the building. Also have 2 or 3 fire extinguishers spread around the building. This is plain, simple, common-sense advice to prevent family tragedy. Have very strict rules about the handling of the stove, such as loading etc, with children etc. It is better to be safe than very, very sorry. AND another thing, make sure your stove and chimney are shielded and that nothing combustible is within 3 feet. ....

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StephenR
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2003-01-18          47753

Chief,
You can run the stove without the catalyst but is is not as effiecient. When I removed the fireback on the stove and checked the catalyst it fell apart. So it was working to some extent before that. The next week I used it without the cat and a stainless steel pot, filled with water, that we keep on top of it for moisture was half full/empty in the morning. Usually it is about 2/3 empty in the morning. No scientific study but there was a difference. The previous years of chimney cleaning also prove that I only have to clean it once a year. And it's not bad when I clean it. I hate heights!
It's our primary heat source. The heat is much better than the forced hot air that is our back up. My wife doesn't mind the mess and I like huffin' the wood. It may sound strange, 70 degrees is 70 degrees, but the heat is so much warmer in many different ways.
I hope I'm not sounding like some eco-nazi wuss, I'm having a double Seagram's VO on ice in your honor, it's Saturday night. ....

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Chief
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2003-01-18          47755

And indeed an honor it is!!!! I am a Capt. Morgan rum man myself. I'll have one in your honor as well. ;-) Sounds to me like you are on top of your wood stove heat game! I didn't get alot of time to cut wood this year and am kinda rationing. I usually go thru 4 or 5 cords a year. Got my own log splitter and just got a John Deere 4410 to pull logs around with. Take care and enjoy. ....

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StephenR
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2003-01-18          47759

Cheers! ....

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jeff-s
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2003-01-18          47760

Catalytic converter stoves do two things. They combust unburned gases that would normally go up the stove pipe. They take the extra btu's, and boost the heat output of the stove. On my wood stove, their is a cool air intake duct in the front that runs under the fire box, up the back of the stove, and across the top of the fire box, just above the catalytic converter, and out the front of the stove. When the catalytic converter gets bright orange from burning the gases, the air in the duct above the catalytic converter gets super heated, and flows out the top side of the duct, sucking cool air in the lower duct inlet. After 30 minuets my stove is blasting out hot air like it had a big fan running. The air is so hot that you can't hold your hand in front of it for more than a few seconds. For my stove to really put out the heat, the catalytic converter needs to stay bright orange, and the stove pipe temperature needs to stay over 400 degrees. If I run the pipe over 500 + degrees very long, it could damage the pipe. Well, that’s the way I got it figured any way. ....

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StephenR
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2003-01-20          47821

Jeff,
What kind of stove do you have? ....

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jeff-s
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2003-01-20          47838

It’s a Kuma K-400 free standing wood stove. Not the prettiest stove, but heats my 3000 sq. foot two story house with ease. But the winter temps here in Fresno, Ca is 38 degrees average. It drops down in the high 20's at times. Here’s a link to the web site:

http://www.kumastoves.com/
....

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CraigR
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 6 Massachusetts
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2003-04-01          52423

I run my defiant at 450(side door therm), then I shut the damper and the cat runs between 1200 and 1400. Those high temps are what burn off the gases. Wet wood will definetly kill the converter as well as over heating at start up. Try to avoid letting the open flames hit the converter directly. I like to place a log just below it. I have an adjustable air opening on the side of my stove for the converter. It allows me to adjust the air intake which gives me my 1200-1400 temp control in the converter. During the season, if you have some kreosole build up, you may have to give the valve a slight turn in order to increase air flow to the converter. just my 2 cents. ....

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homedad5acre
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 103 N.E. PA.
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2003-05-30          55994

I have the Vermont Castings Defiant it is my only heat sorce. Had it since I built my house. I have pushed at least 35 cord maybe more through it in the last 5 years. Yearly cleanings were all it needed still has the original catalyst. However it is time now for new gaskets. The glass doors do get sooty(black) when I run it at cooler temps(550d)and I only do this at the beginning and end of the burning season all winter it runs at 700d. When running at 700d the soot turns into a white ash that easily comes off with windex. My house is an open design with cieling vaults to the second floor which permits me to run at 700d without over heating any one room. These are all griddle temps. ....

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