Go BottomWood vs Coal
 | grinder
Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 677 central Maine 
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2004-01-23 74778
Looking for comments on the subject of burning coal for home heating. I now burn wood.
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 | blizzard
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 282 Central Maine 
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2004-01-23 74780
I used local soft coal in the late 60's and early 70's when I lived in Colorado. Back then it was inexpensive, much more compact than wood, and would easily burn all night. You do need to take care to have a reliable draft and sound chimney as carbon monoxide can be a (deadly) problem. Stove was a cast iron rectangular front-loader. I found no creosote problems and less ash vs. wood, but if the fire goes out, you need to start it with wood. There is a dust (dirt) problem, even when it is 'oiled', you should keep it dry, and it does smell like.. coal.
If I remember correctly, the price skyrocketed over about 5 years, going from $3.25 per ton at the local lumber-yard to around $28.00 a ton at the mine. Cost rose from 15 to 40 cents per ton to have it 'oiled' to keep the dust down.
bliz ....
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| grinder
Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 677 central Maine
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2004-01-23 74781
Can you keep it in the cellar? or is the smell too strong?
I like having the wood right in the cellar but,I'm trying to
reduce the dirt , bugs, moisture load in my house,sore back,
etc. etc.
I talked to one guy that buy's it bagged and loves it. not sure of the cost comparision. Still researching. Oil is a
$1.50 a gal right now. ....
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| blizzard
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 282 Central Maine
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2004-01-23 74787
Years ago the cellar coal bin was very common, but cellars then were equipment space for the furnace. Hard coal has much less dust and odor than soft coal, but how either might affect the air-quality in a modern 'air tight' home is a question I can't answer. Storing only well seasoned wood in the cellar would eliminate your moisture problems and really reduce the annoying insects. Also makes the wood a lot lighter! As your sore back attests to, wood 'heats you three times'. I'm guessing that here in central Maine coal might be pricy, due to transportation costs and limited use. I'm considering an outbuilding for a wood heated hot water system, as oil/propane/electricity costs are very high and sure to increase.
FYI: 1 ton of coal approximately equals 2 cords of dry wood for steam.
Hard coal approximately 53# per cubic foot.
Soft capproximately 48# per cubic foot.
see also: www.nma.org/statistics/pub_fast_facts.asp
hearth.com/what/heatvalues.html
bliz ....
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| grinder
Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 677 central Maine
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2004-01-23 74856
Thanks for the info! ....
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 | shortmagnum
Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 848 Wisconsin 
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2004-01-23 74858
When you go into the basement of an old house where coal was once burned most everything is stained black, the foundation, floor joists and subfloor. Using coal in an outdoor boiler might work pretty well though. I think you get a more even burn with coal than wood. ....
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 | AC5ZO
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 928 Rio Rancho, NM 87144
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2004-01-23 74871
When I was a kid, my grandparents used to refer to "coal oil" I think that it was kerosene or something like that. I am pretty sure that it was the same oil that they burned in their "oil lamps" on the farms for lighting. Is kerosene the oil used on coal as described early in this thread? Does kerosene come from coal processing? Or is there some other connection? ....
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| grinder
Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 677 central Maine
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2004-01-23 74872
I assume that is why they sell all bagged up?
dust and smell? I need to find someone who is using it
and check it out I guess. ....
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 | Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada 
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2004-01-23 74874
We still use anthracitic coal at our farm, it is widely known around here as 'nut coal'.
The problem the average person might have with burning coal is two-fold.
First the coal is capable of generating tremendous heat if given too much draft, the 'blast furnace' effect, similar to a blacksmith's forge. It will easily produce FAR more heat than the average woodstove is meant to take.
The second problem is that coal burning appliances are designed in such a way that the burning takes place on a heavy cast iron grate through which the ashes can fall into an ash pan below. Without this feature the ashes will quickly smother the heavy burning coal.
Coal oil is exactly that, they refine the coal and extract the oil, it is messy, sooty, smelly stuff. About the only good use UI have ever found for it was killing ticks on animals and burning in outdoor lamps to keep mosquitoes away from the patio. Kerosene is a petroleum distilate, it is a close relative of diesel & furnace oil.
Best of luck.
....
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| blizzard
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 282 Central Maine
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2004-01-23 74880
AC5ZO,
See link below.
`Abraham Gesner, a Canadian, developed a method for
extracting oil from coal and called his new product
"keroselain."`
A little later `carbon oil` was distilled from petroleum.
I don't think the oil was kerosene. If I remember correctly they heated it (steam) and sprayed it on the coal as it came down the chute into the truck. Wasn't any great amount, just enough to keep the dust down somewhat. Can't remember it having any special odor, perhaps a low melting point wax.
bliz ....
Link: Coal_Oil
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| grinder
Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 677 central Maine
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2004-01-23 74883
Murf
Do you use it for home heating?
I would definitely buy a new coal stove if I were to
pursue it. Do you have any comment as to cost comparision?
Presently we have an oiled fired BBHW system and woodstove in the basement. ....
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 | mielkemanor
Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 7 Durham, ct.
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2004-01-23 74888
I have a small coal /wood boiler tied into my oil fired BBHW system. It's been in use since 1977. My oil burner
will take over when the heat demand exceeds the coal fired boiler. I use hard nut size coal. Buying coal by the bag
is expensive. If you have storage room buy it by the ton.
You should be able to get it delivered. You will get more ash and dust with coal,and you will have to find a place for your ashes. I use them on my gravel driveway. ....
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| grinder
Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 677 central Maine
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2004-01-24 74913
Some interesting ....
Link:
Click Here
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 | AV8R
Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 882 North Central Wisconsin
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2004-01-24 74961
This may be a silly question, but why? By the time you invest in the labor and equipment and the HHHUUUGGGEEE expense of insuring this in-home setup, you could be using LPG or NG without any of the loading or shoveling or... Just wondering if I missed something. ....
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| grinder
Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 677 central Maine
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2004-01-24 74968
It's funny, I have never looked into gas.
I guess we are creatures of habit. Most people
here in maine seem to have oil fired BBHW with
a wood stove somewhere. I'll ask about it for sure
for the next house. ....
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 | harvey
Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 1550 Moravia, NY 
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2004-01-25 74988
I'm not sure about prices in the upper mid west but here in Central NYS Natural gas has almost doubled in just over a year and propane is 1.25-1.40 a gallon+or- depending on the season. My Oil is locked this year at 1.34.
I use 300 or so gallons of heating oil and probably 200 of that goes into tractor. I burn 15 or so face cords. My full replacement home insurance is 400 a year.
So not counting my time, I heat this dump 3500+ sq ft 12' ceilings down stairs for about 350 at year, that includes all gas, oil and chain loops for cutting wood. We have neighbors that burned that much in just Dec and part of Jan this season.
I do like mufrs explaination of coal. I have a wood/coal furnace. In order to burn coal I'd have to change the damper system to a different style. I do not believe it is a good idea to switch back and forth between wood and coal in the same stove.
The other big draw back to coal is: if you get a couple of warm days mid 30's I'd have to start opening windows you just do not shut down coal very easily. ....
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| AV8R
Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 882 North Central Wisconsin
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2004-01-25 75040
I make the point about insurance because I'm shopping for a new company right now. All agents ask if I use wood for heat. Some only double the premium, some won't even quote. All have told me if I were to use wood and not inform them, no claim, heat related or not, would be paid! Just doesn't seem to be worth the hassle. I know on the East coast alot of oil is used, but locked to 1.34 for this year doesn't mean 3.41 next year.
I have natural gas at my home, $175 last month (fairly cold december) for house and 2 garages, but no cutting or shoveling or labor involved. Your labor time is worth something, isn't it? ....
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 | DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2004-01-25 75052
I just got my Dec electric bill.
$649
Guess who is trenching for a propane line and tank? ....
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 | kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2004-01-25 75053
Geez, Mark, what did you do? Light up the entire state for Christmas? If I could make a recommendation, does anyone in your area do blower door tests to test your house for leaks? You might check with your utility company. We cut our electric bill by 20% by spending $100 and a little time sealing things up, and I'm not talking about any big leaks either. Tiny things like plumbing penetrations on outside walls, casement window cranks, and recessed light cans add up. ....
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 | Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2004-01-25 75060
Holy Electric Bill Batman!!!!!!!!!! Mark, are you serious about the electric bill???????? $649 !!!!! I heat my house almost exclusively with wood and use a small amount of kerosene. When the temps. are in the 50's or more, I use the heat pumps. During the winter, my electric bill varies between about $80 - $130. Either electric is hugely more expensive in Nevada than in Tennessee or you have a serious problem with a potential electric power loss possibly in something like a water heater or other high amperage device. Is your house well insulated? If I deliberately tried to use that much electric; don't think I could. I thought you were using wood to heat with since you got that huge cotton wood tree cut up? If you don't already have a wood stove Mark, I would strongly recommend a Fisher Poppa Bear woodstove if you can find one. The best there is. I have a Grandma Bear and a Fisher fireplace insert. Very good quality and heat output but also VERY heavy. You may want to look into a corn stove. Either of these type heating units would quickly pay for themselves at the current costs you are paying for electric. ....
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| grinder
Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 677 central Maine
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2004-01-26 75071
Would strongly recommend this book ( Insulate and Weatherize) by Bruce Harley Taunton's books Build Like a Pro. series. Barnes and Noble.
Do a little research on Moisture control and Air movement
in a house.
I thought I new a few things about building, I didn't!!
I have an Allnighter wood stove similar to a fisher.
These run about 45% eff. The new stoves run up around 75%.
....
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| grinder
Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 677 central Maine
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2004-01-26 75072
There is a ton of info out there on buiding science.
Make sure it's for your part of the country.
Chief, nothing wrong with a fisher, but after a few recent
trips the the stove shops researching coal,I've got an
antique in my basement. ....
Link: http://www.buildingscience.com/housesthatwork/cold/portland.htm
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2004-01-26 75086
Grinder, our coal use is for a combination of both home heating and for heat in utility buildings.
In the houses, 3 of them, there is a combination of coal fired boilers and coal burning space heaters, two of the houses have cookstoves which also use coal.
The equipment is VERY old but still works like the day it was put in, which is both good & bad, dependinng on how you look at it.
Most of the coal consumed is the machine shed, our main workshop, it is 50' x 50' and is kept at a minimum of 50 deg. F. all winter long using a coal fired hot air unit. It is an extremely efficient unit, especially considering it's age. A magnetic thermometer on the flue pipe only a few feet from the unit barely ever moves off the end point.
Cost is lower than almost anything else we could use, especially as we buy in relative bulk. Years ago we built a 'bunker' for the coal, it is basically a building with a concrete basement but no floor into which the coal is dumped by opening a bay door and tipping the coal off the truck and into the hole. We get deliveries by a tri-axle dump truck. There is an auger built into the bunker which delivers coal to anything (wagon, truck, trailer, etc.) parked under it next to the building. We have a small wagon, like a grain bin, which is used to distribute coal around the farm with a truck or tractor, it gravity dumps into the coal bin at each location. The labour is minimal.
I think the slow steady burn of the coal makes for good efficiency, you get a lower heat output than say oil or gas, but it goes non-stop. You never get a fluctuation in temperature like with other types of heat, cold just as the thermostat kicks the burner on, sweating by the time it shuts off.
Best of luck. ....
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| DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2004-01-26 75093
The $649 is about double compared to the previous december.
This Dec was colder and we had a lot of holiday company. So many that we had to activate (read: electric heat) a couple of travel trailers as overflow guest rooms. That plus all the extra showers and clothes washing/drying and running as many as 7, 1500 watt heaters in single digit temps...... well it all adds up.
The woodstove was going 24-7, but one stove in 3000+ square feet? Asking a lot.
The house has little or no roof insulation and I am constantly finding air gaps and cracks to be sealed.
Big projects upcoming: a new roof with high tech insulation and a new propane forced air system that will cover about 70 percent of the house. But first I have to excavate the old oil tank and run leakage tests on the soil below, and get a trench dug for the propane line through some mighty tough soil. ....
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 | ncrunch32
Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 762 Kingston, NY
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2004-02-21 77528
Grinder - I used pea coal in my previous home. I made a wood 8x4x4 bin outside my house and had someone fill it before the winter. I liked the coal - was inexpensive enough, house was toasty warm, only had to stoke the fire twice a day. Unfortunately when I moved to my new home my wife wouldn't allow the coal stove. It creates white fly ash that adheres to your tv screen, computer monitors etc. Once the wife starts dusting the house she will want to get rid of the coal.
....
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| hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 3583 iowa
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2004-02-21 77531
Just thought I'd toss in my experience with insurance, vs. woodstoves, etc. After having been with the same insurance carrier for 30 plus years they seem to have lost intrest in insuring farm or rural property by lettinng their service to the customer slip to nearly nothing, so we went shopping for another carrier. We found a general agent who can write for four companies who specialize in farm and rural coverage. these questions were asked by all the carriers he writes for. First is about the woodstove, none would refuse to cover, but the premium wsa higher, second at a rural rental house we rent out the tennants had a trampoline in the yard, none of them would even write a policy till the trampoline went away, third was ponds or swimming pools, all would write a policy if the pond or pool were fenced and supervised, but the rates were thru the roof. We did'nt have a woodstove, the trampoline did go away, and luckily we have neither a pond or pool, so we basicly had our pick of which carrier we liked best. This is in the upper midweat, maybe other parts of the country or other states have different insurance laws. Just my two cents worth. Frank. ....
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| grinder
Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 677 central Maine
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2004-02-22 77554
Ncrunch
Did you have your stove in your living space?
I would have mine in the basement,do you think
that would make a difference?
I think coal may be too expensive here,180-200.00
a ton. Del.
Although wood is getting up there, to buy all worked
up for the stove 125-150.00 per. cord Del.
Been burning oil for 1.20 a gal..
Thanks for your input on the ash, I read that a ton of
coal will leave a half ton of ash behind. Would you
agree with that? ....
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| grinder
Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 677 central Maine
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2004-02-22 77555
Frank
Just had my insurance review,as most are getting one or will. Woodstoves in Maine isn't a big deal as long as 1)it's
not an old or older home.(no flu liner )2) You have a two
flu chimney.3) Woodstvove and furnace must be separate.
My 4 yr. old home runs about $550.00 per yr. for $200,000 replacement value. I don't think that is too bad.
Adding to your comment on pools and trampolines is the
dog issue.My agent showed me her list of 18 breeds, which
they won't write a policy if you have one. Could be a major
liability for some who don't disclose!
....
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| hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 3583 iowa
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2004-02-22 77558
Grinder; Subject, insurance/ woodstoves. Not one of the four carriers asked about dogs, but I'll bet that will become an issue here too. seems like every so often there is a news story about someones dog attacking a child. Back in the fiftys every small town grain elevator and lumber yard had several grades of coal on hand. There still may be some, but I've not seen a coal pile in years. Along with the bigger citys, most small towns now have natural gas, or if your farm is along the road where the gas main goes by you can hook up. I'm only guessing, but I'd say probably 80 percent of rural homes use LP and the rest are oil or wood. I haven't paid attention to LP prices lately, but we prepaid .89 before Sept. first for this winters supply. I remember our grade school had a big coal/steam heating system that burned stoker coal. When I was in the lower grades the janitor gave me a tour, ( no OSHA in those days ), of how the coal truck dumped the coal down a big chute into a bin that was probably 20 ft. square then an auger fed the furnace from the bin, I thought that was pretty neat. Frank. ....
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| harvey
Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 1550 Moravia, NY
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2004-02-22 77559
Murf you tug back a bunch of old memories. Any of those kitchen ranges named Kalamazoo? I split stove wood for 2 of them growing up. But do remember of some of the uptown folks that had coal fired kitchen ranges.
I'm thinking an outdoor furnace burning a wood and/or coal combination might be something to prusue.
Funny how different parts of the country are. Our insurance is lower because of the pond near the house.
But last time agent was at house to upgrade insurance and saw all the black dogs with brown markings he did give us a warning not to ever submit a dog bite claim. They would pay it but that would be the end of insurance for us by any carrier.
We did have a good laugh over probably never having to submit a theft claim and we did get a reduction for that. GO FIGURE! ....
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 | wigglybridge
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 82 Vermont
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2004-02-22 77562
I have a combination wood/propane furnace to heat the house, and it has shaker grates for coal, which I've also used a bit in the colder spells, since it runs a lot longer. I got it by the bag, since it was really just for convenience of running time, not that I was going to use it long-term. Mostly we burn wood, about 6 cords that I cut on our land.
One thing that I'm surprised hasn't been pointed out about coal is how compact it is compared to wood. Yes, a ton of coal is equal to about 2 cords of wood, but that TON of coal is really small -- about 4x4x4, if I remember right, probably off a little but not much. The heat value of just about anything you can burn is dependent almost entirely on weight -- the more weight of burnables you can push through, the more heat you get.
I'm going to be out of wood tomorrow, because all I can cram into the basement is 2.5 cords, and I don't have good storage near the house. Makes the coal more appealing. ....
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| wigglybridge
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 82 Vermont
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2004-02-22 77563
Oh yeah, forgot to say that if an agent didn't offer insurance here for places with wood stoves, furnaces, etc, he'd be out of business -- there'd be nobody to insure.
My new neighbor about 350' away is the only one I can think of in miles who doesn't burn wood. And I think she's nuts, since she has radiant heat, she could lose the whole shooting match to a freeze. She does have a self-start power backup, though. ....
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 | Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2004-02-22 77565
I bought a pellet stove a few years back. There is very little mess and it supplies most of the heat required for this house. I also have the heat pump which is water based and it supplies supplimental heat on the coldest days.
I have a outside insulated wood boiler and like the system. As it burns very slowly. I doubt I would use much more than a couple of cords in a season. I could easily heat the house with the system and may add it into the mix, but at present the pellet stove heats for about 200$ a season with no wood cutting or feeding. I built a exchanger and currently it heats the pool.
In MA I had a coal stove and burned some coal but was not overly impressed with the mess. ....
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| grinder
Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 677 central Maine
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2004-02-22 77595
Peters
How much are the pellets,what are they made from,How do you
buy them? Bagged?
Thanks ....
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| ncrunch32
Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 762 Kingston, NY
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2004-02-22 77604
Grinder - I had my stove in the family room. If you put the stove in the basement there may not be a problem with fly ash. My wife has a friend who is a meticulous person and she is OK with a coal stove in the basement. But the room the stove is in will definitely have extra dust. ....
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| ncrunch32
Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 762 Kingston, NY
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2004-02-22 77606
Grinder - I would disagree that 1 ton of coal leaves 1/2 ton of ash. You just empty the tray out of the bottom once a day - over a 10 year period we didn't accummulate that much ash. Maybe 1-2 yards. ....
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| blizzard
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 282 Central Maine
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2004-02-22 77607
Hardwood,
Was that 89 cents a gallon for propane? I use around 800 gal/year and as of my last delivery it was $2.15 per gallon.
What a ripoff here in Maine, Spend tax dollars for State/Federal fuel assistance programs, then the suppliers raise the prices because the 'program' will pay whatever they ask.
With a little luck I'll be back to wood heat by the fall. Scroo all these 'support your local whatever' who rip off their customers. Will gladly pay the premium for 'low volume user' if I can get down to 100-125 gal/year. The dealer can eat 'losses' on the tank and regulators.
Ranting on...
bliz ....
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 | Wildman1
Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 196 Chugiak, Alaska
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2004-02-23 77645
Intresting about heating costs posted here. When we built this house 23yrs ago we insulated with urethane foam. Our NG costs were about $45/mo for 2400 sq.' then. Now we have 3600 sq.' and our annual NG costs are $96/mo. We never really burned much wood to augment our heating. All the new additions also are urethane'd.
I also have double-paned windows and cover the insides with heat shrinked clear plastic in the winter. I expect another NG price increase but don't think I'll ever come close to matching heating bills with some of what I've seen here. Insulation seems to be a major player here.
BTW..just got back from Prescott, AZ visiting friends. Ran their Kubota 2960(?)glide shift and have a few comments about it compared to the 2210. Anyway, Prescott gets cold at night alot of the time in winter and their house's insulation, well, what insulation, is some fiberglas but typical for the "South 48". And, their NG heating bill is higher than ours for less sq. footage.
And I remember my granddad's house in Neosho, MO that had a coal chute into the basement to feed this huge boiler for the HW radiators.
Not sure I'm happy to be back from Arizona, but it's warmer here than Prescott was when we left...go figure. Gotta catch up on the latest tractor stuff.
....
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| hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 3583 iowa
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2004-02-23 77649
Blizzard, yes .89 plus 5% state sales tax is the correct figure, I just dug out the reciept to be sure I was right. I really don't know what it's going for right now but I doubt it's over a dollar otherwise it would be a prime coffee shop topic. Frank. ....
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| grinder
Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 677 central Maine
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2004-02-23 77650
Blizzard
What ever happened to cheap NG with the pipeline across Maine from Canada? I think Mass. an RI got it,we didn't. ....
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