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F350Lawman
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Posts: 411 Goshen, NY
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2003-10-06          65711

We had some friends come to visit from the city. We gathered up all the kids and went apple and pumpkin picking.
We were all done and I started wheeling a cart of pumpkins to my truck when a girl leaned out her car window and said 'look out for the bear". I am in the middle of a crowded parking lot with literally hundreds of people roaming about so I was thinking "yeah sure honey, keep drinking' :) All of a sudden I hear women screaming to their kids to "come here" and shouts of "bear". The kids(not mine) were playing tag at the edge of the orchard very close to where the bear was. I was now a believer so I headed up the hill between where the bear and the kids were . Some worker drove up on a quad and said too look out because the bear was now pretty close. He was trying to encourage the bear back into the woods with the quads motor noise. Eventually the bear crossed the driveway and went into the woods but not before causing a real stir. This place was packed so it was not agood place for a bear.

I will say the bear seemed disinterested in us and also that apples must be very healthy for bears cause this sucker looked at least 300 lbs. and the worker said he was the SMALL one.

I tell you I did get a little nervous when he lumbered across the road even though I was armed. I am glad that bears are most times happy to go their own way!

Real nice healthy looking animal , I bet he eats all he can every day after closing.


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TomG
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2003-10-07          65717

I'm pretty used to facing down grumpy bears off-hours at the dump. What works best for me is sharp coughs rather than whistles etc. and sort of 'Ali like' feet shuffling. I don't worry much as long as they're not facing me. After a few encounters I know I can crowd them a bit as long as they aren't facing me, and they'll eventually move further away so I can get close enough to fling my stuff in the pit. That's all I want to do and I assume all the bear wants to do is rummage in the pit. It's a fair trade and the bears are just a bit grumpy. If they turn toward me I know I have to back off a bit. I do have my bear spray with me and wouldn't advocate anybody else do this. I learned my stuff from friend who is a bear guide.

Our trouble around here is that we're used to normal bears, but we're in an area used to relocate problem bears from other places--even though relocation doesn't work. We've got a bunch of bear that already have bad habits and are likely on their way back home for the most part. We've had a run this year in particular on bear breaking into people's homes while they are there. I guess it's left to us to shoot them 'cause there's no place else to re-locate them.

My request to people in more populated areas is don't feed bear--intentionally or otherwise. They just associate people with food and end up around here left to us to shoot. The people who hunt them around here's freezers were already full by mid-summer. Most people really don't want to shoot them just to cure a problem 'cause then you have to deal with a stinky dead bear. ....

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AC5ZO
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2003-10-07          65721

I used to run into bears in the mountains in California. Some of these bears were also relocated bears from closer into the cities and they generally were used to human contact.

One night I was sleeping in the open bed of my pickup truck and it started rocking. My first thought was Earthquake. I woke up and looked around and there was one of the bears trying to get my cooler out from under the truck. He had his mouth around the corner of the cooler and was really shaking and tugging it enough to shake the truck.

The cooler was wedge tightly underneath the truck and I had put rocks wedged under the edge of it to secure it under there. The bear never did get it out or broken open. Finally, he went on his way.

It turns out that some "neighbors" in the campsite area thought that the bears were "cute" and placed food out on rocks right in the middle of about a dozen campsites. We explained to the "neighbor" in the public campsite that they were not only endangering themselves, but the rest of the people in the area. We were there for about four days, and we had bears in the camp pretty much every night.

The "neighbor" had not fed the bear anymore as far as I know, but he kept coming back to see what he could find. Nobody ever got hurt, but I wasn't upset when the bear decided to tear up the camp and equipment of the "neighbor" that had fed him in the first place. That happened on the last night of our stay there. Some lessons come harder than others. ....

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F350Lawman
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2003-10-07          65742

I agree with what you guys said. I also have no problem sharing my space witht he bears or MOST other creatures. The only thing a little unnerving about this situation is that it is ongoing and there are literally hundreds of people, many children whosould easily turn the corner of the next apple tree and end up in this or the other bears lap.

Bears cross my property in the morning but they give us a wide berth and it is in the early AM hours.

If it was me and I owned this obviously thriving business I think I'd try to get animal control to relocate this bear. I fnot maybe a quad full of apples in the woods might keep him occupied for the day :)

Scratch that thought, forget about feeding the bears if something happens the owner may be "feeding the lawyers". We all know they are a much more menacing creature and they never leave once they get a taste! ;) I can here it already, "so Mr. Jones you knew there were bears but you never warned the parents who frequent your establishment, nor did you put up any warning signs, didn't call the authorities...yadda, yadda, yadda ....

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TomG
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2003-10-08          65794

Couldn't agree more. Bears and a bunch of people, especially people who may not be used to them don't mix and especially if there are cubs around. Two bear were shot in town a couple weeks back and one was a sow with cubs in a school yard. Kids were disturbed and the lettters to the editor debate eventually calmed down. The sow behaved aggressively toward teachers, police were called, the sow was pepper sprayed, got separated from her cubs, became really agitated and was shot. Very tricky shooting bear in a school-yard and not something you want to happen.

I'm not sure what the solution is but I doubt that it's relocation. Even the government seminars guides have to take basically say it doesn't work. Most adults go back to where they came from if they aren't killed by larger bear whose territories they are plonked into. Young ones stay around but already have learned bad habits.

Around here we're pretty bear proofed. We know not to leave any food source outside. We only put vegetable parings etc. into the compost. We store garbage in the basement this time of year. Most people took down all their apples a month ago. Still I must know a dozen people that had bear break in or start to break in to their houses this year. Near as I can figure they are likely relocated bear that only know human habitation as food sources. Since their usual garbage cans, bird feeders, compost bins etc. aren't available are around here, they come inside. Food smells are still around and it doesn't take much. We also know that they'll remember most food sources and check them out next year.

A bear chewed up a friend's boat's plastic can tank. It was likely because he handled the tank when he was fishing. A two-year-old picked up my father-in-laws garbage can box and dumped it even though it hadn't been used for garbage in months. That was a reasonable normal bear though. My 80-year-old father in law took a long while to answer the phone and said he was out chasing off the bear, who checked out his fire barrel and then ambled down the beach. Those sorts of bear we live with OK around here. The ones that don't find anything and then break in we've got problems with and those probably are relocated bear. You can't really tell since most aren't tagged. Cutbacks; there's no vets to tranquilize them. Please give us a hand here and do your own bear proofing. That way maybe they'll stay in the bush or the dumps. The bear already outnumber people here and we just don't need any more. ....

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F350Lawman
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2003-10-08          65852

Now this is a far cry from the little( it's all relative ;)) black bears near me but did anyone catch this story? ....


Link:   BEAR ATTACK

 
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TomG
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2003-10-09          65863

Last year two people were killed by black bear in Canada and that's very unusual. In each case they were alone and moving--one jogging and the other cycling. In each case the bear seemed to be hunting rather than defending. Such incidents are rare and somebody moving at speed alone likely looks like prey to a bear. It may be but it's likely a bad idea to jog alone in bear country or leave small children unattended. It's also a bad idea to run form a confrontation or to 'play dead' if attacked.

There's some research going on to see if there's a genetic component to aggressive black bear behaviour (don't need to answer that question for grizzlies). It may be a case of empty science through. Don't know what they do if it's genetics. Hand out birth control pills to sows that look like they're having a PMS attack maybe. ....

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Murf
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2003-10-09          65868

The old fella who lives up the roiad from our hunt camp was born & raised in that area, as were several generations of his family. He spent most of his life in the woods, as did his father & grandfather who were both professional hunters, the timber companies would hire tham to hunt to provide provisions for the workmen.

He told me years ago that he had been taught to completely ignore a charging bear, apparently when one bear spots another in the wild they will often make a mock charge, just to test the reaction of the other. In all but exceptional circumstances the charging bear will either pull up or turn away then just go on about it's business. He claims it's worse to try and shoot the bear because this only escalates the mochk charge into the real thing, a fight for his life. The bear will usually win in this case.

He claims to have been charged countless times over the years, each time he stood his ground and the bear just ignored him. He said one got so close as it went by it brushed his leg.

I'm not sure I want to test the theory, but he is still out in the woods and just fine... OF course with my luck I would find a bear who had never learned that theory...

Besides, I doubt it holds true of bears which have had exposure to humans.

Best of luck. ....

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TomG
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2003-10-10          65924

Don't know about brown bear but our NR people talk about mock black bear charges and I saw one years ago by a not quite adult bear. We were coming back to camp and saw a bear in somebody else's camp across a channel between lakes. We canoed over there and sort of chased the bear away but I know that's not permanent-- probably city folks (family with children) and their food wasn't tied in a tree.

The people came back as we were leaving. I said there was a bear and they probably thought we were robbing the camp. The guy stocks up into camp figuring something's going to be something missing and runs into the bear coming back. The bear charges to within about 30' and then veers off into the bush. I don't think the guy was following any sort of informed procedure (just too scared to move) but it worked. I few hours later they broke their camp and were heading back towards the store and without a glance our way or thanks for trying to help. The bear probably came back as they always do once they get on a camp. Best thing is to move camp. My girl friend at the time stopped laughing at me for putting our food up a tree. The canoe paddles too. Beaver like to chew on the handles if they get a chance. ....

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Murf
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2003-10-10          65956

I don't know about 'tame tigers' but I'll tell you the mostly 'tame widcat' I live with is nothing to mess with, especially if provoked.

As for charges, they're not 'mock' at all, I get the bills at the end of every month to prove it too.

The only safe spot I have found is the shop, she doesn't go out there, she says she gets dirty just walking past the place so she rarely enters, I keep the 'provisions' in an old fridge aquired for just such purpose and she doesn't get to them either.

Best of luck. ....

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Peters
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2003-10-11          66032

You need to make a lot of noise when walking in bear country. They claim that many people are attacked because they essentually sneek up on the bear and do not give him time to determine that you are not food.
In timber cruising in grizzly country we normally took dogs and a pump 12 gauge with shot. Your target gets pretty small if they decide to run at you. You only have a heart or head shot. A charging bear can move very quick. I have heard of a 30-06 round glancing off the thick slanted cranium of a grizzly or large black bear. The 12 gauge will stop them if they get too close and makes a great little noise machine.
Finally bears will eat oil. They even go after the mixed fuel. When falling in the high country we had to keep doubles of everything and try and hid them where they could not find. Once the area is cleared it become a bear deli as they go in looking for grubs etc. I have spent weeks with the black following me checking out the last trees that went down. At least it was natural behavior. ....

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bnrhuffman
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2003-10-20          66612

Ive had a few quick or distant bear encounters over the years. I figure Im due for a close encounter some day. The last one was a couple of weeks ago while four wheeling near the Poconos in PA. We spotted a cub about 30 feet away. No sign of momma bear but you know she had to be close by. My first encounter wasnt really an encounter but was actually more frightening. My wife and I were backcountry hiking/camping in known bear country and as we settled into our campsite for the evening, she proceeded to spill beef noodle soup all over me, my clothes, pack and sleeping bag. Some stuff we were able to hang away from the campsite. Other stuff I just had to use. I didnt sleep much that night.
Fortunitely, no bear visits that night. On a different occasion, we did have a bear walk through our campsite and rattle some pans while four wheeling near Tahoe last year.
Anyway, Since I now do most of my hiking and camping in PA, I must travel through the comunist state of MD which has unconstitutionally strick firearms laws, Im thinking about the bear pepper spray option. Anyone have any experience with these? ....

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TomG
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2003-10-20          66619

A cub seen from 30' and no mom most likely was an orphan. Make noise when in the bush and generally the first thing mom does is chase her cubs up a tree. Make noise and don't approach a tree that has a cub in it and get out oft the way if you end up between them. For the most part she'll tell you she wants you to go somewhere else and give you opportunity to do it. Pepper spray is far from a guarantee against a serious bear but it's better than nothing. It only works from 25' max so it's scary if it has to be used but probably less scary than a handgun.

For the most part bears aren't scary; they're just hungry. No surprises for the bear or the people is the key. Cooking utensils and even toothpaste and deodorant are better off up a tree away from camp--no curious bears in camp and there's less chance of stumbling over each other.

Bears that are familiar with humans may try to intimidate people away from food and they ignore yelling etc. That's what gets them shot around here other than hunting. If they're serious they usually work themselves up for a charge by puffing and swatting the ground--a sure sign to back off. ....

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F350Lawman
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2003-10-20          66646

"Pepper spray is far from a guarantee against a serious bear but it's better than nothing. It only works from 25' max so it's scary if it has to be used but probably less scary than a handgun."

Come on now??? Your comparing a handgun to pepper spray that works at 25'. Pepper spray barely works on some people, I have been sprayed and was less than impressed. If it can't stop the average "Joe" how the heck am I going to trust my life on it stopping a bear???:) The bear will probably use it as a condiment while he feasts on yer' gizzard!

I agree a hangun is less than ideal but I'll take a 16 shot 9mm over your pepper spray any day of the week.

I don't bother the bears and so far they haven't bothered me. I have little doubt that should it come to it the black bears around my way, while they may be fairly decent sized are going to go down if hit multiple times. Their big they probably are coming at you in astraight line so hitting them should be doable even with the stress of the situation. Ever try to hit something moving with pepper spray?? Not easy, it moves slow and drifts. That's why many cops hate it, they try to spray the bad guy and 4 of your fellow officers and up coughing,red faced, runny nosed and cursing you :(

The Alaskan Brown Bear that just killed and partially devoured the animal activist/bear expert and his girlfriend last week was killed when the Park Ranger fired 11 shots from his handgun. The bear dropped only 20' from the Ranger, they made no mention of how many shots were hits and since they didn't say he was out of ammo one can guess that he had some left( probably 15 round L.E. only mags). I would guess tat the chances are he had a 9mm or similar caliber based on his magazine capacity.

That bear was a far larger and more dangerous animal than the black bears 90% of us will ever come across. That animal had already killed 2 persons and was dining on their remains when he went into a full charge at the Ranger. They said there were 2 Rangers standing by with shotguns but they didn't fire because the Ranger with the handgun was able to dispatch the animal. He joked about what they were waitng for :)
....

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kwschumm
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2003-10-20          66650

At the risk of being off-topic, I was amused last night to see a TV commercial from the Maryland visitors council encouraging people to visit Maryland. I thought to myself, "Not in this life". ....

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TomG
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2003-10-21          66703

Probably a good idea going off-topic, but I can't quite stop myself from carrying on a bit.

I likely have a different view of bears since I'm around them and also of safety. I think of bear attacks as less real than lighting strikes. I don't ever expect to experience one and I'm more prone than most since I have to move them around to use the dump. I have been chased back to my half-ton along with a bear guide who led the way. We later moved the bear off the pit w/o spray or guns. Still, the chance of me experiencing an attack and defending myself with spray or gun just doesn't seem real to me so it doesn't make much difference if I have spray, gun or nothing.

What seems more real is the chance of shooting myself or somebody else if I carry to protect myself against something that has insignificant chance of happening anyway. People shoot themselves and friends with much greater regularity than bears attack people. The risk is always present and no amount of training or experience eliminates it. At least that's my view of safety. I'd be at greater risk from the gun than from the bears. Spray may not be particularly effective but at least you aren't likely to kill yourself with it when there aren't even any bear around. Others are welcome to different views. ....

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Murf
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2003-10-21          66704

I'm told the real problem with spray is not it's effectiveness. The danger is running into a bear who has been sprayed previously, remebers the smell, and takes the mere presence of it as a threat and responds accordingly.

Like it or not firearms are very good at preventing recidivism, in humans or bears. There is a very low rate of repeat offenders after the big bang.

I suppose the risk of shooting someone accidentally has to also be weighed against the risk of someone being attacked if a problem bear is not dealt with permanently.

I guess we should be most thankful that it was humans who invented the gun and not bears.....LOL.

Best of luck. ....

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AC5ZO
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2003-10-21          66715

I know policemen that have never shot their guns in any place other than the shooting range. But, just because they never felt the need to shoot someone does not mean that it was a waste of time to carry the firearm.

Chief, if I keep a bear and I somehow allow it to kill someone, I can be held legally responsible for neglegent homicide. On top of that the lawyers may be able to sue my pants off for the liability even if someone has to get past multiple levels of protection to pet the "attractive nuisance". If the state protects a bear and then enacts a law that prohibits you from protecting yourself against that bear, the only thing that the lawyers can do is to get the laws changed. The state has no liability in this case and you cannot get compensation. Even if the state officials make an error in their interpretation, they are protected unless there is some other motive as in a bribe or personal vendetta.

I have had close bear encounters. I have only shot once. That shot was placed into a tree about two feet from the bears head. The bang, flash and impact noise a couple of feet away was enough to send the bear packing. He stayed around our camp all night (we could see his eyes with a flashlight in the trees) but he never returned.

I am with F350 I would rather have a 9mm than a can of hot sauce any day. There is an extra amount of shock that occurs when a body gets hit with multiple bullets. It more than multiplies the effect. Poachers in Africa will take elephants with a G3 which only shoots a .308 cartridge, and nobody in their right mind would use a .308 against an elephant, but the G3 can get multiple shots on target and that makes the difference.

I don't ever recommend someone getting a handgun without training in how to use it. Whenever anyone on this forum has asked about guns for self defense at home, I almost always recommend a long gun. Pistols are quite useful if they are properly employed and used safely.

....

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F350Lawman
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2003-10-21          66718

" am with F350 I would rather have a 9mm than a can of hot sauce any day."

In my experience if the spray works, you probably didn't need to use it. What I mean is it usually only works on the people who are not real aggressive or pain tolerant. A bad guy who is intent of continuing the battle does.

I would think it might be the same with a bear, it MAY scare of the bear who is just trying to run you off but I think it's effectivness against a determined animal will be less than desired. You may even turn that bear who was just toying with you into the latter.

P.S. I do still have a can in the drivers side door pocket of my truck, figured I'll spray you with my left hand then draw and shoot ya'with my right. Now that should improve it's effectivness..... :) ....

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kwschumm
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2003-10-21          66719

Without tearing into my (virtual) friend Tom, I'd like to say that from my perspective I like to control as much of my destiny as possible. In a confrontation with a predator I'll take all the edge I can get.

Sure, you want to avoid a confrontation but the bear has to meet you half way. You can't assume every bear your run into at the dump is healthy and normal. If the bear is ill, or thinks you're a threat to it's cub, or is hungry, or is having a bad day it can ruin your day.

I also think that as adults we have responsibilities to protect OUR young. If a child, mine or yours, is threatened by a bear I'd like to be able to help without falling on my sword. The chances of accidentally shooting someone are pretty slim if a gun never has to leave it's holster unless you're on a range. But if you need it you'll be glad you have it. I'll bet those two Alaska nature lovers wished they had a gun half way through their confrontation. Their destiny was ultimately fulfilled - they are now one with nature. ....

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kwschumm
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2003-10-21          66732

Mark pretty well nailed it. Firearms owners have been so villified that here in the states we reflexively try to stamp out hostile rhetoric before it gains a foothold. That means we sometimes make mistakes and shoot ourselves in the foot LOL Please pass one of those beers. ....

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Murf
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2003-10-21          66733

Glad to pass, BUT, be careful, it's not just the Canadian bears you have to watch out for, our BEERS bite too..

Why just the other day I heard of a fella knocking a couple back quickly, they took the legs right out from under him..........

Best of luck. ....

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Peters
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2003-10-21          66739

Murf and Tom are talking about weekly encounters with bears and knowledge of bears. I certainly would not have wanted a gun hand gun in my pocket when fighting up the mountainside with a large chainsaw in hand. I have had the brush and slash will unclip everything. Would not wear a watch. Unless you know what the leather fringes are for at the bottom of the laces you have no idea. I would give it a probability of 100% that the safety would be switched or you loose the gun. I would place it a bout 50% that you would shoot your self. More precisely the slash would catch the trigger on the non-safe gun. I guess I always had a weapon in hand but he had to get with in 3 ft. I can not say that that it was the bears were the most dangerous things on my agenda during the day.
I have scared my self once or twice where I stepped a little to close to a bear, but as someone mentioned earlier in this post we are a greater threat to bears than they are to us. In any encouter case I was the stupid one and had violated proper procedure with wild bears.
The native population was not on the lunch menu despite having only arrows and pointy sticks. So why do we consider our selves at threat? Knowledge of the wildlife is far more effective that blowing them away.
When I was younger an American was in Skookumchuk with his power boat. The killer whales were playing around his boat and he decided that it was a threat to him. He pulled out his gun, something that was illegal for him to transport into Canada and started blasting away. The killer whale washed up on the beach a day later. Was the large porpose a danger to him or was he and his ignorance a danger to the killer whale? Again within native Coast Salish, Haida, Tsimsan etc. cultures there was no fear of killer whales only reverence.
Fear is a difficult thing to control. I am not against dispatching with problem animals, but normally the problems in bears arise from the foolishness of man. I have had large young wild western black bear(~500lb) with in 6 inches, I felt in danger, but did not think he was threatening me. Certainly startled me though. My first thought was not to fight with the bear, only to extracate my self from a bad situation.
I would not go into deep bear country without a good bear dog as they definately reduce encounters. My brother in-law uses the Catahoula that my niece brought back from here, his lab just doesn't cut it. My mom's wolf/shepherd certainly puts the bears on the run. He kept on treed beside the house a couple of days.
I think you are foolish to believe you can easily bring down a large bear with a 9 mm despite what the Alaska wildlife does with two shotguns aimed at the bear. I have seen a large grizzly brought down with a 30-30 and he had to empty the mag into the heart. Luckally it stood up and walked toward him.
I do not consider myself an expert despite maybe 100 encounters with bears, beyond the crowd at the dump. I do find it upsetting to see people afraid of bears rather than learning the rules and treating them with respect.
In my childhood neighbourhood you went out the back door and had about 3 or 4 road between you and the artic ocean. Although we were aware and wary of bears we still had encounters fishing etc. For example, I went running down Terrace mountain racing ahead of my friends (11 year olds). I jumped over a log and bounded down the wooded hillside. Got to the bottom and looked behind. No friends trailing. I stood there for a few minutes then headed back up the mountain. I got up a ways and found them comming down a little white. I asked them what happened? They said didn't you see the bear that you leaped over. Huh? They sat there until the bear ambled into the woods then followed. ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2003-10-22          66773

Appreciate the eventual calm replies. For the never calm ones, get a grip. If you treat people like me as the enemy you're just helping those that are trying to do unto you and have done unto us here.

A former federal official recently gave an interview about our nutty control and registration system here. What was said is that the policy was to make the system as outrageous as possible. The reason was that the party policy people wanted outraged letters and even better demonstrations from owners. They felt that it would score points for the government with the enviros and crowd. Owners were simply scapegoated to help keep a few low-life politicos in office. Hey, don't help them eh!

There are real use, lore and safety issues that might be good to discuss but maybe it's too difficult. It also doesn't seem very helpful to treat an entire township of bushies as if they don't know what they're doing. Most people spend a lot of time in the bush and we're knee-deep in bears. Nobody here ever takes guns into the bush except for hunting or practice. Protection just isn't an issue. There hasn't been a bear attack in a long while. Well, we do keep track of what's hanging around where, and the ones on their ways to becoming problems just don't last very long. ....

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Murf
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2003-10-22          66793

Chief, with all due respect, I'll take that bet.

A mature black bear can only achieve about 25 mph, and that takes a bit. Even if he had a a running start it wouldn't be too hard to get there first, especially since I leave the door open.

As for him ramming his skull through the truck door window, that's not likely to happen since a mature male is only about 5' tall standing up, in which position they have very poor balance, they can only run on all 4 feet at which time they are only 3' tall, a dent in the door skin is possible though I suppose. I do know the 'panic' button on my trucks keyless entry system makes more than enough noise to scare a bear off, they seem to learn when very young not to pick a fight with a vehicle.

Careful is very good advise, however let's put the risk in a little perspective here. The following facts are from the United States Department of Agriculture's Forest Service.

Recorded killings by Black bears for all of North America this CENTURY, 28.

The 500,000 Black bears in North America kill fewer than 1 person every 3 years.

Or if you want to compare apples to apples, for EVERY person who is killed by a Black bear, 17 people are killed by spiders, 25 people are killed by snakes, 67 people are killed by dogs, 150 people are killed by tornadoes, 180 people are killed by bee or wasp stings, 374 people are killed by lightning, and 90,000 are murdered.

Before someone says "but what about a mother with cubs?" this is what they say on that subject.

"Unlike grizzly bear mothers, black bear mothers seldom attack people in defense of cubs. Black bear mothers typically bluff or retreat. Researchers who routinely capture cubs by chasing them up trees have not been
attacked even when they have held screaming cubs. The ferocity of mother black bears is one of the biggest misconceptions about this species."

'Nuff said.

Best of luck.
....

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AC5ZO
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2003-10-22          66819

The animal responsible for the most deaths in the US is the common deer (mostly whitetail and mule). I am sure that the vast majority is from traffic mishaps.

Tom, please do not take any offense to anything I said. I certainly did not intend any offense, but intent is hard to express in an email. I will continue to "pack heat", but I appreciate your point of view and your valuable insights. It is fine with me to have a well considered difference of opinion. ....

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TomG
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2003-10-23          66881

Time to give it a rest I think. For myself, I don't take offense easily and any I do take doesn't last long. I am gong to react to labels applied to me and values attributed to me I don't think fit and are a stretch to get to from what I wrote; and so I did.

I was focused on firearms as tools and the risks inherent in the use of any tool. I never thought my old 9mm (granted a WWII Walther) nor my .45 ACP had enough of a whack to make them very good tools in this hypothetical situation and may end up having a wounded bear in the bush.

But it's all hypothetical and extremely unlikely to happen, so why run any risk? I'm all for tools, and training and experience do manage firearm tools to acceptable levels but risks remain as I can attest to from experience. Never any accidents though except a guy I knew did shoot himself in the leg a little fast drawing. I did that as well but I must have practiced longer before going live. Pretty dumb I guess and so was shooting rats in the county dump with .22 pistols by flashlight, which we did as alternative Friday night recreation. Since I likely owned firearms (if 12-year olds can) before you were born but not in recent years, have I said enough so that making me out as an anti-gun type seems pretty silly?

I did carry my .45 when hunting when I was young. Now I wonder why. It weighted a lot and there never was the remotest use for it. No problem with others carrying if it makes them comfortable and there's adequate training. I'd just as soon not be around though. Dang! Guess I didn't give it a rest. Sorry. ....

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Peters
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2003-10-23          66889

I am sorry if this rubs some one the wrong way, but I see little need for guns in dealing with black bears. The west coast bears are about double the size of the eastern bears I have seen. I was nose to nose with one day and his nose was in my navel. He was a youngster. I had certainly seen bigger blacks bears.
My biggest problem is what I consider a threat after maybe a hundred bear encounters, not including the weekly nature encounter at the dump, is not what some suburban neo hunter thinks his ass is in danger.
I worked daily with the bear with in eye site working over the trees I had fallen. I never had a weapon other than the chain saw. They normally kept a safe distance from the noise. In that situation a handgun, like Tom stated would have been a greater risk to me than nothing at all. When working in the brush and slash everything is stripped from you. You certainly would not wear a watch. The idea that you could keep a handgun on safety and in the holster is ridiculous. If you do not know what the fringes on the lace bottoms of you boots are for then you have no idea.
I am against blasting away wildlife just because it looked at me wrong.
When I was in my teens an American decided to sail up to the Skookumcuk. The Orcas started playing around his boat and he got frightened. He took out his illegal fire arm and started blasting away. We had to clean the Killer Whale off the beach later. There are only some 150 Orcas in the southern pods, now there was one less. Certainly the natives never considered the whales a threat in their cedar canoes why did he in his 50 ft motor cruiser.
When common knowledge comes from Hollywood and the media, we are in real trouble. Certainly the idiot Italian that made the movie about them attacking the boat was not doing it to educate, but titillate.
If you want protection from bears take a good bear dog. My brother in law has found the Catahoula that my niece brought back from AL is effective. The wolf/shepard we had treed more than one grown bear. Kept one up the tree next to the house once, for a couple of days. The dog smells them and lets you know of their presence in the area long before you will. Also helps to make more noise as you hike through the woods.
I never killed anything I did not plan on eating. I don't like bear so I don't plan to shoot one, therefore if I am not hunting I don't carry a gun in the woods. I have never felt threatened although I have been in danger once or twice, mostly do to not following the rules.
I am afraid about moving around a city like NY. Mostly do to the hostility you experience from the inhabinants when invading their lane of traffic. Let alone their shopping line or space in the subway. You are much more likely to get killed or injured by one of these idiots than the average black bear or grizzly for that matter. I certainly have experience a greater frequency of hostility from the New Yorker than the bears. I never tried taking the bear dog to NY. Do you think that would work? ....

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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
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2003-10-23          66891

Peters, you're right about everything being stripped off your body when doing logging work in thick brushy areas. Not a good place to carry a gun, phone, watch, or anything else. Heck, it can be hard enough keeping your clothes on!

You're also right about urban areas being more dangerous than the woods, although the danger is generally much less than most people think. Most cities have rough areas that I wouldn't enter without carrying a defensive weapon. Cities like LA have areas where even cops won't go at night for anything less than a murder.

Nobody here wants to shoot a bear just because it exists. ....

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AC5ZO
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2003-10-23          66904

In my direct experience, the bears that I have encountered have been relocated bears with a "troubled" past. In California, bears would come right up to houses in areas like Big Bear (I wonder where that name came from?) and they would be relocated to the Sequoia wilderness areas. As Mark said, these bears (mostly with tags or marking) have already had troublesome encounters with people, regard them as a source of food and entertainment, and are not generally scared to invade your space.

I have traveled extensively in Alaska and I for one was always more cautious with Moose than I was with the bears. I have never had an encounter with a truly wild bear.

Here in NM, I know that there are bears around, but they seldom come anywhere near where I live. With only 2M people in the whole state, there is a lot of open area where everyone can do their thing without conflict.

On my recent Utah trip, I took a firearm because of fresh reports of attacks by bears on campers in the same area where I was going to travel. I never saw a bear on the entire trip and never unpacked the gun. I took a box of "Bird Bombs" which are like big firecrackers that you can shoot from a 12 ga shotgun, and I figured that the noise would be all that would be necessary to head off an encounter.
....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2003-10-24          66954

Tell you what. I'll say to myself 'Maybe I was wrong about something; maybe somebody knows some things better than I do; maybe I got myself into an unrealistic position and have been just doing ego defense; maybe there aren't any points that need proving or that anybody else needs to listen to. I'll say that to myself, and for myself just put this one to bed and go on from here.'

These 'p-contests' we get into from time to time don't do the site any good. When they're active tractor content drops off. Lord, think how this sounds to anybody who comes here to learn about tractors. I'll ask myself the question 'If this site is about tractors, who cares about how I live, what I've done or what I think and feel?' I'll say to myself 'I'm guilty of ranting and being full of myself, and now I'll just stop.

....

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kwschumm
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2003-10-24          66996

I'm with Mark. I can understand a passionate disagreement, but if you guys want to fling insults at each other I wish you'd take it to email. ....

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Peters
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2003-10-25          67066

I agree and am sorry I essentially wrote one post twice. The first appear like it had not posted.
I am the opposite spectrum to AZ5ZO, most bear I have encountered were truely wild working and living in the back country. We tended to avoid contact with the bears so that they would not become accustomed to us.
We certainly not feed the bear or leave food wrapping where we were working to draw them. We had a hard enough time keeping the birds like the Whiskey Jacks (Camp Robbers) from landing on your finger and stealing your lunch. Totally unccustomed to human contact. ....

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