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 | Billy
Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 975 Southeast Oklahoma 
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2002-09-21 42725
I have a poultry farm, 4 houses with one propane tank supplying all 4. Yesterday the tank was filled to 83% (3,200 gallon tank). Last night when I went to check the birds, I had no heat. After some investigation, I found the regulator at the tank had froze. I poured some water over the regulator and everything went to working. This has never happened before. Can anyone tell me what would cause this problem?
Thanks
Billy
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 | DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada 
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2002-09-21 42727
Billy, was the humidity unusually high yesterday? May be related to the dew point spread. I used to know all that stuff a couple decades ago, but when I learned to tie my own tie, something had to go to make room for the new info. Maybe someone else can fill in the gaps. ....
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| Billy
Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 975 Southeast Oklahoma
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2002-09-21 42729
No more than normal Mark. The temp yesterday got up to about 85 and it was 76 when I found the regulator froze.
Billy ....
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 | CB
Join Date: Posts: 1 
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2002-09-21 42734
tank should not have been filled past 80%. When the cold gas expanded it froze at the regulator ....
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 | Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2002-09-21 42736
Two problems are possible. Excessively high gas flow can cool the regulator, but I imagine that the over filled tank probably warmed and blew the relief valve cooling the regulator further. I imagine that in Oklahoma they run a summer and winter mix like diesel. Butane in the summer and propane in the winter. I suspect that your freezing was due to the cold regulator and a tank of butane. ....
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| Billy
Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 975 Southeast Oklahoma
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2002-09-21 42737
I don't know, Peters. I do think it was a bit overfilled for this time of year. The reason I say this is I just went to look at the regulator and it was frosted up again (not frozen yet). It seems the problem only occurs when the outside temp is in the 80's, causing the gas to expand inside the tank?
Billy ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-09-22 42769
I guess you know if the regulator is rated for the flow required by the four houses and the system has operated long enough to know that it worked OK till now.
I wonder if I’ve got the mechanism that being thought about right? There has to be flow to produce icing. There wouldn’t be any expansion of gases in a closed system. However, the pressure in a tank should increase during hot weather so there’d be a greater pressure differential across the regulator, which probably means greater expansion and more icing. I’m not sure if a smaller gas space inside the tank due to over-filling would make any difference to the pressure rise, or if an 80%fill limit is required for other reasons.
I guess the extra expansion in hot weather idea would be true so long as the propane changed from liquid to vapour phase in the tank rather than regulator. I have heard of things called generators but I don’t know if they’re the same as regulators. I also don’t know about relief valves on large tanks. I’d sort of expect them to be designed to withstand pressures up to those that might rupture a tank and wouldn’t be encountered in ordinary operating environments. With all these ‘I don’t knows’ an assumption that there’s no expertise here would be correct. Maybe I’ll learn something.
I wonder if something would work like a heating pad placed beneath the regulator, or warm air directed at it, until the level declines to a normal fill to see if the problem goes away. Of course, any possible fire hazard should be recognized.
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| Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2002-09-22 42795
Butane has a boiling point of 31 degrees F and propane has a boiling point of -43 degrees F. I suspect that they delivered a tank which is high in butane and then when the gas expands through the regulator, high pressure to low pressure and cools. The pressure is high due to the temperature 80 F outside and the high fill of the tank. The gas liquifies in the regulator and stops it up.
Peters ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-09-23 42801
Thank you Peters. I believe that's the explanation I was working towards and in far fewer words. Funny thing how knowing something shortens up the explanations. High pressure ='s more expansion ='s more cooling ='s liquefying butane rich gas in the regulator. I guess the solution would be cooler weather or turning down the heat till the next fill that hopefully would be a winter blend. Of course, the chicks may not be partial to a 'turning down the heat' solution.
I believe that an earlier comment from you led to an understanding why I grew up calling them butane tanks and now they're called propane tanks. I kept moving north and didn't know that butane freezes in northern climates so people don't call it butane.
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| MRETHICS
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 190 Star City, Indiana
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2002-09-23 42816
Ok Folks, nows my chance to show of some knowledge that has little to do with tractors...well now days that is. We had a 4020 that ran on L.P. when I was a wee lad.
The reason the regulator is frosting over is due to a restriction in the flow.]
When propane is change from it's liquid state to it's gassious state (vapor), it cools just like any other refridgerant.
If there is a restriction in the flow, and pressure on one side of the restriction is enough higher than the are past the restriction, it will vaporize in the same manor as an expansion valve works in your car air conditioner.
I would say, off hand, you have a bad regulator, and this is one of the early signs of failure. It could even be a plug in the line where the regulator connects.
Propanen is a product derived from of crude oil. It is seperated from the crude by one of two processes. fractional distilation, or the more modern version of catlytic cracking. It is blended with other fuels to maintain the correct vapor pressure for the ambient outside temps at the time of usage.
Then.....usually it is sent down a huge pipeline to a storage field, usually undrground(don't ask).
There is a substance called "line rouge" that is used in the pipelines occasionally to help keep them clean. T
And here is where I think your problem comes in............
The line rouge is never cleaned completely from the system. It ususally puts a coating on the inside of lines, tanks, whatever it comes in contact with.
But every now and then, little balls of the stuff is formd and lay in the bottoms of tanks. These little balls sometimes fnd there way to your storage tank and usually...they just lay in the bottom harmless, but sometimes when a truck transferes fuel into your tank, these little rascals get disturbed and find there way into your plumbing and furnaces, causeing the problem you describe.
Regulators are not rebuilt, they are just thrown away and the cause of failure is never diagnosed.
The chances of this happening twice to the same tank is almost nil. But industry wide, it happens on an almost regular basis. The stuff is so fine, filtering would be impractical, and I've seen companies try to use filters,they cause more problems than they save.
Have your supplier change your regulator!!!!
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| Billy
Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 975 Southeast Oklahoma
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2002-09-23 42817
Thanks E. Let me ask you this. This happened one time and since it's been thawed, it hasn't happened again. Do you still think it's the regulator? It got pretty warm the day they filled it.
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Billy ....
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| MRETHICS
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 190 Star City, Indiana
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2002-09-23 42819
Billy,
My best answer would be...........yes, get a new regulator.
Your located in S E Oklahoma. I can't imagine it being much below 50 Deg F. down there in the wee hours of the morning yet this time of year. Keeping this in mind, I can't imagine your furnaces useing one heck of alot of gallons of L.P. per hour. Yes, the birds must be kept warm and the furnaces will run, but not at a level that will overtax your regulator.
If your regulator was too small, you would have had problems long ago. Unless this is a new system.
If this is an excisting system, here is what probably happened:
The truck (bobtail) unloads 3000 plus gal of propane in your tank, as he transfers the liquid in his tank to yours, vapor from your tank is transfered back to his truck tank.
In this process, a small piece of foriegn matter is dislodged from his truck, or your tank and gets into your plumbing, then travels to the first thing it can't fit through, and stops, partially blocking the flow. When your furnace kicks on, pressure downstream from the restriction drops significantly, and the liquid is turned to vapor, kinda like a carburator atomizes gasoline. This has a cooling effect on your regulator and the moisture in the outside air is cooled to below freezing when in comes in contact with the cold netal of the regulator.
When you thawed the regulator, the metal in the thing expands, thus opening up the passage, and the forieign matter is dislodged, maybe even broken up into more managable peices. Heck, they could be gone by now. Or.....they could be lodged inside your regulator waiting to cause more problems.
Regulators are cheap enough. How much would it cost if this happened again, and the birds didn't get heat for say 6 hours?
I would still contact my supplier, and let him know what happened.
If it is a tank owned by yourself, it will be your expense. If the supplier owns the tank, you need to remind him he could be liable for losses you incure due to his equipment failure.
Now to make light of all this serious talk:
Hank Hill would gladly change that regulator, becaus we all know, that "Strickland Propane" gives much better service than say....."Thatherton"....(who, buy the way,is Buck Stricklands arch enemy and handles butane and other such "bastard gases".
I think Buck Strickland, and Hank would be proud of all I've taught you folks here about clean burning propane. Not to mention the kind of comment we'd get from Boomhauer.
Rock On!!!
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| Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2002-09-23 42840
Propane is extracted from gas wells or refined from wells with high low carbon component. I dont think that they crack any as it would require cracking and then rehydrogenation. Ethylene or propylene is worth more than propane therefore it is unlikely that they would rehydrogenate propylene to form propane, although stranger things do occur.
Most petrochemical plants are located near salt domes and these are excavated for use as storage tanks. That is why the material is pumped back into the ground.
Propane and butane are liquids when under pressure but become gases as they expand. The gas is used from the top of the tank and this is one reason there needs to be free volume in the top of the tank.
The regulator expands the gas using a restriction and a needle valve compensated by a spring. The gas passes through the restriction and expands adiabatically which cools the gas and regulator housing. Why do you think a diving regulator can ice up despite the fact it is in water above freezing.
There may be dirt in the regulator that can further restrict the flow, but I would be inclined to think the high fill, high pressure, high flow and the possibility of a butane mix is more likely. Can you check with your supplier?
Sorry I have not rebuilt propane regs. only specialty gasses and diving.
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-09-24 42846
Some more great ideas. I believe that I've learned quite a bit about this stuff. Maybe it will help prevent chilly chicks as well. My own modest contribution was going to be that if the high fill/high temperature idea is the one, then providing shade for the tank if it's in the sun might help. I’d probably replace the regulator on principal as well.
I read an article quite awhile ago where somebody was using microwaves in poultry houses. There were a number of button devices inside that would turn on low powered microwaves for short periods. Apparently it didn’t take the chicks long to figure out they got warm when they pecked the buttons. I believe the idea was touted as an energy saving device. Might have been, but a drawback was that there couldn’t be any metal inside the house. I never heard that there was any operational use. You’d sure want a fail safe against a ‘stuck on’ condition. Don’t know, maybe the article was a spoof.
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| Billy
Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 975 Southeast Oklahoma
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2002-09-24 42855
I just talked to the owner of the propane place (he's been gone to
Mexico on vacation). He said it was most likely that when the tank
was filled, some liquid got into the tube that supples the regulator
and caused it to freeze. Either that or there's some moisture in the
tank and if it happens again, he will blow some alcohol into the tank.
Thanks for all the replies.
Billy
....
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| MRETHICS
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 190 Star City, Indiana
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2002-09-24 42856
I was thinking about this problem again llast night. (yes...I have a life, but the conversation reminded me that I needed to fill my grill tank. And when I refilled it, that reminded me of the topic at hand.)
Another phenomina that could have happened is as follows:
If your valves are mounted on the bulkhead (domed ends of a tank) the vapor fitting your regulator is screwed into has a pipe attached to the inside. This pipe, is turned upward and ends short of the top of the tank, letting only vapor into the valve. Sometimes, during the filling process, liquid is splashed into the pipe, or if it is overfilled, liquid will completely fill this pipe.
This puts liquid propane into the vapor system, which, as it gets to your regulator, and hits the orifice, and needle, has the cooling effect already described in previous posts.
Now, believe it or not, there sometimes is a small amount of water in propane. This is usually caused by condensation due to temp. differences between product temps inside tanks and lines, verses the ambient outside air.
Most suppliers ad Methonal to the L.P. as a way to disperse the water, and also as a sort of anti freeze.
So, if liquid found it's way into the vapor system, and started the cooling effect, and there was enough moisture in the propane, the innards of the regulator could literaly ice up.
This ususally happens when the truck tank is pumped almost empty, because his pump gets liquid from the bottom of his tank, where , due to the fact that water is HEAVIER than propane, the water is sucked into his pump when there is little propane above it. If your tank is almost full when this happens, there is a sudden surge in the liquid line filling your tank, and splash!!!! some water lands in your vapor line leading to the valve your regulator is hooked up to.
at any rate, when water frezzes, it expands, this could alter the accuricy of your regulator.
I'd still ask for a new one. ....
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