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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2002-04-28          37910

I was reading the book 'Painted House' by John Grisham. The story was about tenant cotton farmers in Arkansas and set in 1951.

A JD tractor was mentioned in the writing frequently. Several times the tractor was mentioned in connection with its diesel chugging. After reading the book, I kept thinking, I wonder how new a tractor a tenant cotton farmer would have in 1951 and what JD would have had a diesel engine.

Don't know when and which JD models started having diesels. My uncles during the time were more prosperous than the story characters at least in that they owned their land, and they all has gas tractors.

Of course, the question is just my curiosity and is entirely incidental to the story, which I think is a very good one.


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DRankin
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2002-04-28          37918

Tom. To the best of my knowledge, the first JD diesel farm tractor came on the scene around 1955-56 and it wasn't very long before that that they still had iron wheels.
On the other issue, I have a friend who is now in his late 40's and he was raised by his grandparents in the south in a sharecropper’s circumstance. So he was a kid in the mid 50's and into the 60's. When he left the farm his grandpa was still using mules. He was raised on hard work and you can still see it when you look at him today. If he wanted meat for supper, he had to go out and shoot small game such as squirrels and rabbits. I don't think he ever used mechanized farm equipment, as we know it today.
....

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DRankin
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2002-04-28          37919

Model "70" 1953-1956


The 70 arrived a year after the 50 and 60, with many of the same features. Later it earned two distinctions all its own, and shared others with its year-older brothers.
Originally available with gasoline, "all fuel", or LP-gas engine, it later offered a diesel option. The 70 thus becaume the first John Deere diesel row-crop tractor.

In its Nebraska test, the 70 Diesel set a new fuel economy record, bettering all previously tested row-crop tractors. In 1954, the 50,60, and 70 became the first row-crop tractors equipped with optional factory-installed power steering. John Deere engineers achieved this industry first with a system that used built-in hydraulics to control the steering column. This differed from "add-on" systems utilizing externally mounted motors on steering shafts or hydraulic cylinders hooked up to tie rods.

Improvements in equipment control paralleled improvements in tractor power and performance. Case in point: The 801 Hitch, an early weight-transfer hitch that transformed implement draft resistance into downward pressure on tractor drive wheels. It was introduced on 50, 60 and 70 tractors.

In addition to the row-crop model, the 70 was available as a somewhat unusual standard tractor. More accurately, it was a wheatland tractor built on a row-crop chassis. Fenders and front axle were all that distinguished it from the row-crop model.

The 70 Diesel was rated at 34.25 drawbar hp and 43.77 belt hp. Nebraska Test No. 528 (1954); also No. 493, No. 506 and No. 514 (1953).


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kay
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2002-04-28          37920

Mark
The first diesel tractor by Deere was the Model R, in 1949.
My father started working on the early stages of engineering design for Deere in 1936 and spent his career building and testing diesel tractors, which included the Model R, the 70, 80, up until the late 50's when Deere switched to 3, 4, and 6 cylinder diesels.
Your web link will take you to the Model R for some additional information. ....

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TomG
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2002-04-29          37926

Thanks. Pretty good info. I think a pretty safe conclusion is that a tenant cotton farmer wouldn't be likely to have a diesel tractor in '51 even if R-models were on the market. I wouldn't fault the author (formerly a lawyer) for this detail though. The story did describe sharecroppers with mules rather than tractors and described lives that were harder than I can imagine.

My folks grew up working the land with horses but fled Nebraska cornfields for California the middle of the depression. I'm not sure when my uncles who stayed got their tractors, but they always had them as far back as I can remember. I'm not sure any of my cousins stayed on the land, but if any did, they probably have diesels by now. I guess I'm the city kid who went back, but of course I don't have the worries of raising cash crops.

One of my ancestors is thought to be the first European to raise a cash crop in an eastern Nebraska county. It probably was done with horses. Now I have a diesel tractor for no crops. Modern life is a bit self-indulgent I guess.
....

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DRankin
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2002-04-29          37932

Kay. Great info! I am interested for other reasons. My uncle aquired a green diesel in the mid to late fifties and I was trying to figure out which model it might have been. Do you recall which models used a gasoline engine to start the diesel and an electric motor to start the gas engine? ....

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Peters
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2002-04-29          37936

The R had the gas engine to start on the JD. It is a bit of a misnomer to call some of the early JD gas as many started on gas and ran on farm fuel. ....

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DRankin
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2002-04-29          37945

By early you must mean prior to WW II. We had a fuel tank in the yard that fed the tractors, the chevy pick-up and the Buick grandpa drove to church on Sunday. So what is farm fuel? ....

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Peters
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2002-04-29          37951

I was hoping someone could explain it all. I think the A and B ran like this. I believe it was like kerocene, but I don't know all the particulars.
When it comes to old tractors my experience is limited. I grew up in an area up north that was 400 miles of gravel road to the next town of any size and did not have a road until WW II. There was very little equipment around that predated the war and certainly no Deeres.
I have a friend in Ketucky that has a barn full of old Deeres and was showing me the starting sequence. ....

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TomG
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2002-04-30          37958

Kerosene, coal oil, #1 diesel, stove oil and maybe farm fuel are about the same thing. I think a diesel would run on any of them, but they wouldn't be volatile enough for a low-compression spark-ignition engine. Maybe there is a fuel that would work for both relatively high-compression gas engines or relatively low compression diesel engines, but I don't know of it.

Maybe there is anther explanation. I think that older industrial equipment often used small gas engines called pony engines to start the then hard to start diesels. Some diesel tractors probably did as well, but these were entirely independent engines.

I took a tour when I was a kid in scouts during the mid-50's. I'm trying to recall if it was IH industrial equipment or Caterpillar, or if they were the same company at the time. What I believe I saw demonstrated was a single engine that had a both gas or a diesel cycle.

I saw the equipment started on gas and then changed over to diesel, and I believe it was a single engine. However, I don't believe it was intended to be operated on gas. Some years later in university I was talking to somebody who said that the way these engine worked was that there were cavities in the head that were sealed from the cylinders by valves. When the valves were open, the compression was low enough for the engine to run on gas. He also said the engine has been used on tractors but didn't last long. The valves were never in their seats while on the gas cycle and got hot if operated on gas for awhile. Then, they'd warp and the engine would be no good for diesel.

Please keep in mind that this story is a kid's recollection and may be wildly wrong. It's just how I remember it. To make the idea work at least in theory, I guess that there would have to be a carburetor in the intake manifold, spark plugs in the cylinders and an ignition system. I don't know if the injector pump would have to be clutched.
....

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DRankin
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2002-04-30          37961

The only reference I have found to multi-fuel engines is the link in the box above. The model 70 Deere had an optional engine that could run on LP or Gas. That is not so different from some automobiles today. Is it possible that the difference between farm fuel and gasoline was its taxable status similar to our on road/off road price structure today for diesel?
Peters: do you remember seeing two seperate fuel tanks on those old tractors?
My recollection of the family farm in the early fifties has one elevated fuel tank that fed three tractors, a JD "A", a JD "B" and a Case It also fed the pick-up we drove to the creamery every morning and a big old 53'ish Buick. But like Tom says, I was pretty young and this memory could be flawed. ....

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Peters
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2002-04-30          37962

My understanding is that the tractors had two tanks. You started the tractor on gas and then switched over to the farm fuel. It was not diesel from what I wsa told and the engine was not a diesel cycle.
What I thought (note my conjector) was that due to the low octane rating of that era gas. You started the higher compression motor with the gas and then switched to the more viscous, higher octane farm fuel. I suspect as the octane rating of gas increased due to the addition of ethyl lead the second tank was just filled with normal gas.
Can anyone enlighten us? I asked my friend that rebuilds the old Deeres, but he could not tell me. ....

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Murf
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2002-04-30          37965

If 'tenant' farmers in that part of the world were anything like the ones we had around here years ago (and I don't see why not) they were certainly very 'poor' tenant farmers. However, that being said, they usualy had VERY wealthy landlords (with whom they 'share-cropped'). Our family worked a LOT of land this way for years, we even still 'work' some today this way. Because the landlord made his 'rent' based on a share of the crop it was in his best interest to ensure the 'tenant' had everything possible to maximize the yeild, including providing 'state of the art' equipment, which was back-charged against the tenants 'share' of course. In fact some of the larger equipment dealers used to rent brand new equipment to land owners with the rental rates based on $X.XX / acre or XX% which ever was higher, this way the landlords could get top yeilds while still conserving cash. It sounds a little bit like exploitation but an honest, hard-working family could make far more money (and have a home to boot) doing this than anything else. Best of luck. ....

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Peters
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2002-04-30          37966

I did not see this at first but the GP series description indicates what I am talking about. The D also indicates it ran on anything but the used the farm fuel also do to the low cost. ....


Link:   GP Deere

 
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Peters
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2002-04-30          37967

Living in this part of the world. I would say it would depend on the land holder whether there was a tractor and whether you could call it a living.
One friend of mine claimed his family was enslaved. I quizzed him on it and he described the share croppers were the monitary chains extended to the whole family. Only mechanization released these families that were tied through debt to the production of cotton.
I can only say there are old A, D, B and GP Deere tractor in the paper for sale. ....

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BillMullens
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2002-04-30          37968

Peters, I will ask my Dad about the dual-fuel engines. He's been helping a neighbor rebuild a Farmall H that has (I understand) a "start on gas, run on kerosene" type engine. Perhaps would be similar to the JD engines.
Bill ....

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Murf
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2002-04-30          37971

Up here in the 'frozen north' it was also common to have, usually only on heavy equipment, a 'pup motor' to start the engine. This was a small 4 stroke gas engine which gear-drove the fly wheel of the main engine to start it. Basically the way it worked was you just began rolling over the main engine (usually with a de-compression valve open or at least partly so) and this generated enough heat after a short time to allow the main engine to begin to fire. In some of the more sophisticated versions the 'pup' was liquid cooled and used the main engine as a radiator and also drove a genrator which kept the batteries and engine warm, in severe weather this little engine would be left running all night to make it easier on the machine come morning. Best of luck. ....

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MrEthics
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2002-04-30          37973

To help clear some things up....or add to the confusion, here is what my father related to me:

Ther were several tractors in production, pre WWII that ran on dual fuels.

Due to several facts, cost, in effiecent cooling systems (gasoline burned hotter than the other fuels and produced more power, so the cooling systems could not keep the engine cool). Engines were started on gasoline, when, Then when warmed up, switched to the main fuel. Almost all of these tractors had two fuel tanks, some even used a glass "Ball" brand jar that held one QT. Also, in those days of ration stamps to conserve fuel for the WWI war effort In retrospect, I have learned that it was not gas that was short, it was a genius of our Govt, to help conserve tires, and since farm tractors were still on steel at that time, these other fuels were not rationed.

The main fuel used depended on geographic location and the name of the company marketing the product. Some places used kerosene, some called it farm fuel. Here In NW Indiana, it was called Tractorlene. But they were all similer to kerosene, and usually it was Naptha (sometimes called white gas)

Accorrdingto my source, (God rest his soul), The tractors ran poorly on the Tractorlene, but it was so much cheaper and available that it had to be used, He mentioned the fact that when plowing and hitting tough patches of ground he would switch back to the gas tank and the engine had the power to pull through it. (getting caught doing this was good for a whoopin'. it wasted money and was hard on the tractor, not to mention unpatriotic. After all, using too much gas could lose the war against the enemy!! My how times have changed!!!)

Back to the first question. I would guess that there is some confusion in his writeing, A tractor running on one of these other fuels, in a certain area, may have been called "Deisel". And the chuggung refered to is the rythmic, almost trademarkable sound of an old Johnny Popper. It is this sound that brings back many memories to many people, myself included. Mr Grisham was smart enough to know what he needed for "nastalgia" sales of his books. It worked...on me anyhow!!! I will give him the benifit of the doubt. I do love his work.....The book in question is one of my favorites
....

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Peters
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2002-04-30          37974

I knew somebody must have the answer. In Kentucky a friend up the road had a old 2 cylinder Deere. He would run it up the hill which was the steepest by my property. Having never heard an old Deere before the first time he came up and the tractor started really popping I though he had lost a cylinder or two and was waiting for it to self destruct.
I must admit after my initial shock, the sound does grow on you. ....

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TomG
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2002-04-30          37979

Well, I went to town today and ate lunch with my father in law after doing some errands and waiting for my wife. I asked my father in law about farm fuel.

He grew up in pre-WWII Southwestern Ontario. He hadn't heard of farm fuel, but thinks it's what they called coal oil as did my folks. He also said that the Fordson Tractor they had definitely had a compartmentalized gas tank (one for gas and one for coal oil). The tractor definitely had spark ignition and was started on gas then switching to coal oil when it was warmed.

Although I don't know how similar coal oil is to present day kerosene, it seems certain that spark ignition engines can run on something near #1 diesel but may not be able to start on it. ....

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Ted @ Abbeywoods
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2002-04-30          37981

Hi guys. I'd like to weigh in on this subject. My Grandpa was a dairy farmer, and had the good fortune of running his small farm through the 1920's up to the end of 1950. He had three Johnny Poppers: a 1937 Model B two bottom on steel which he converted to rubber, a 1949 "styled" Model A three bottom on rubber, and a 1941 Model BO Lindeman crawler (which he hated and quickly sold because it was "too damned slow!"). The 1937 Model B had only about 12hp at the drawbar and 15 (I think) on the flywheel. The '49 Model A was 16/32hp, was heavier than the B, and was his last full size tractor because his farm failed. Both the B and BO started on gasoline, the tank being the small one found closest to the driver. The kerosene tank was the larger fuel tank and it was forward of the gas tank. I remember that they were both what were described as being General Purpose, Multi-fuel, two cylinder, horizintal spark engines having magneto ingition and "sparking plugs." The '49 had electric start (electric lights also!!) but could also be started like the '37 B and '41 BO. Starting went something like this: open gas selector, run flywheel to indicator mark for start (TDC I think), advance spark, switch on, spin the flywheel, and it would generally pop on the first go. I think there was also a hand crank that almost nobody used, at least not on Gramps' farm. Each of the machines had an oil pressure gauge and a temp gauge. The temp gage was an "add on" for the B, and once the indicator reached the warm mark the selector valve was turned from "gas" to "kerosene," and the spark was then retarded. Neither engine would run for beans on just kerosene so like most Popper Pilots Gramps had his own brew. These were still low rpm (1120rpm) spark engines, and not diesels. To the best of what the old timers left in my family can remember Deere didn't offer a production diesel until the Model R in 1949 or 1950. Gramps didn't like them because they were Nazi engines, in his opinion. It was said to have been an offshoot of the production two cylinder multi-fuel spark engine but was a true diesel. At any rate, be it a multi-fuel or diesel, they were back-breaking mean machines to work all day with only an umbrella for shade, even with the hydraulic hitch. The B and A also had a horrible habit of wanting to flip, a real nasty trait of tricycle configured machines. One other thing real quick, a page my Mom saved from our 1935 farm records show gasoline was 12 cents a gallon, kerosene was 6 cents a gallon, and the migrant workers earned $1.15 for a sixty hour week. I doubt if any ever had a tractor or even knew how to farm with one. Funny, my compact diesels are plush in comparison. I wonder what Gramps would think if he could have a chance to work them? This information comes to you from an 83 year old Uncle, a 78 year old Mom, and my own 50 something mind. I hope it was of some help and interest. ....

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Peters
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2002-04-30          37984

Thank you everybody. I knew there was more to learn. You can see from this how quickly we forget even recent history, now only 60 or so years ago.
In my case, my father ran a dairy farm from 42-52 but he lives a ways away and I am not sure if he would know the answer to the question.
At 78 he it is a little tough to get him on the internet. Even hooking him up to the satellite was a chore. ....

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TomG
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2002-05-01          37989

Yes, real good information. My father in law also described something that had to be done with the four magnetos to start the Fordson. I didn't quite catch it and don't know if it was a timing or a sequencing sort of thing.

I'm trying to remember if the JD my grandfather had in the early 50’s was a single or twin. It seemed pretty new to me but then my grandfather took good care of equipment. I do remember the sound though. I'm thinking that maybe JD should get a copyright for the sound, as did Harley (or so I'm told).

Seems like too many companies were using recordings of Harleys in their commercials so Harley protected their sound. Nothing sounds quite like a reciprocating twin--even if I've never understood exactly what that is.

As a matter of curiosity, I always thought the spark on crank start cars were retarded for starting and advanced for running. I suppose it could work the other way for a low rpm tractor engine, or maybe I just never had it right in the first place. No matter, that's the sort of detail that's easy to think one thing and type another, which of course is something I do quite regularly here.

....

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DRankin
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2002-05-01          37999

I can testify to the instability of the "B" models. I flipped one when I was five years old. I didn't get dinner that night and couldn't sit for a couple of days. Glad to finally know it wasn't entirely my fault. ....

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Rubintropfen
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2002-05-01          38002

I can tell you it was the International Harvester Farmall MD that was started on gas and switched to diesel with a change in the combustion chamber volume to increase the compression ratio. I don't know how long IH continued this practice (Super MD probably did, but not sure about the 400, 450, etc.). You can imagine that this was cheaper to buy and maintain than the pony start diesels that John Deere was selling.
....

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Peters
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2002-05-01          38006

I have a friend with a stable of old IH in Cloverport Kentucky. I was suprised at how well the concept works. ....

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MrEthics
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2002-05-01          38012

Hey Rubin, I called on my friend last night who owns one of those M-D's. It's been in his family since they bought it new. He doesnt know what model replaced it. Or how long it was in production. He has restored it, mostly paint and sheet metal, but the engine runs fine. He remebers as a child that it was a bit of a dog compared to the gasoline M and the super MTA that they also owned an used to run on a regular basis.

Here is another history lesson I learned while talking to his father while they were showing me all the tractors in the stable.

During and shortly after WWII. New tractors were hard to get. Dealers would get one in and charge an exhorbanant price. The Govt. stepped in and put in price ceilings on tractors.

The scenerio he described was as follows:

The dealer would get a new tractor in, he would then hold an auction.

When the bidding price reached the Govt. limits the dealer would then throw in the auction ring a bale of straw or hay or some other worthless commodity and then sell the package (Tractor and Bale of hay) at a price that would be well above manufacturers suggested list price!!!

I was astounded!!!!!! He said that this was a faily common practice in the mid-west, and that the old IH "B" he pointed to in the corner was purchased that way. He even made a 100 mile trip to Indianapolis to take place in the auction where he bought it.

He told me that due to the war effort, Tractor manufactures had switched most of their production to products needed for the war, which was largely due to Govt. intervention. It seems that the country wes going through some economic hard times (remember the deppretion?) before the war and the govt. contracts actually were a godsend to manufacturers. Building Tractors became a lower prioroty, then shortly after the war, it took some time to get production levels high enough to meet the demand.

I mean no disrespect with the following remark, I am just adding it for to help show the changes in our society over time and what our country has suffered to get the great place that it is today.

Can you imagine, after running the bid up at an action to twice list price on a 15 hp tractor and a sack of oats, and explaining this great deal to your wife??? The thought of that was the first thing that crossed my mind.. Glad I never had to do that.

This has been one fun subject... I love this board!!!

....

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TomG
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2002-05-02          38044

Rubin: Thanks for the comment. It's about the first confirmation I've heard in adult life about the IH gas/diesel engines. I'm happy to know that as a kid, I seemed to have actually understood what I saw as well as the explanation that went with it.

The whole story about problems with the tractor engine was that if it ran out of diesel in the field, there was a tendency to drive it to the fuel tank on the gas cycle. The engine might then be shut down without returning it to the diesel cycle. There was a valve that extended into the cylinder for gas operation that became hot during the gas cycle since the valve was open and the head couldn't transfer heat to its seat. The valve would warp if the engine was left to cool down while in the gas cycle, and then the engine wouldn't function as a high compression diesel engine.

Of course, I believe I heard this story in a university freshman dorm, and those are places for lots of stories.
....

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