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StephenR
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 230 New Tripoli, Pa.
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2005-04-09          109631

We have a hilly side to our property. My neighbor is interested in renting it for his thoroughbreds. He would put up the fence and possibly a run in shed. The field is in timothy and orchard grass. So...

1)What is fairmaket value on this land (Eastern Pennsylvania)? (approx. 4-7 acres)

2)What if we supply a hose for water? He said he would haul it in, but that sounds like a hassle since he lives about 1/8 mile from the land.

3)Any other things I should think about? I (try to) keep the ground hog population in control and we're calling our insurance agent on Monday.


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funchy
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 128 north eastern corner of Maryland
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2005-04-09          109632

I own horse and I live close to the PA border; maybe I can help.

1) value of land depends ALOT on your location. Are you just outside Philly? or by eastern PA in the eastern Poconoes? Look in the local paper/bargineer for ads for field board.

Is this month-to-month? or a long-term lease?

Big question: Who cares for the horses? Who fixes the fence if it breaks? If the owner doesn't show up for whatever reason are you prepared to feed the horse (you can't let them starve)

2)The water isn't a big issue either way -- it's not alot of water. But if your contract says you provide water and you plan on using a hose, that isn't going to work in frozen winter.

3) Not sure why you're worried about ground hogs? We have them here and they're not a danger to the horses. They don't dig in the horse areas here.

If you have any horse-specific questions, just drop me a line. Good luck to you! ....

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StephenR
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 230 New Tripoli, Pa.
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2005-04-09          109634

Thanks for the quick response funchy, this came up this evening and my neighbor was really excited about it. I live near in the Lehigh Valley and he was talking long term. I think the word that jumped out at me the most was "contract". ....

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harvey
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 1550 Moravia, NY
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2005-04-10          109635

Question? Who would have the liability if a horse did get out, in the road, scoccer mom tried to avoid it and 3 of the 8 kids in the van were killed in the roll over?

Really none of my business. However us up here in rural America, on the dariy farms, are seeing more problems with city folks and their (all kinds of bad words) lawyers. ....

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Oliver
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 210 Massachusetts
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2005-04-10          109637

Here's what you really need to watch out for...

I just finished (or almost finished) putting three stalls in an old barn for my wife's two horses. My idea was to rent out the third stall and make a few $s. Before I knew it, she bought a pony for the kids and now "needs" another horse since one is too old to ride (and selling a horse apparently just can't happen). So now she wants to add two more stalls, one for the new horse and one for a boarder -- I'm not going to fall for that again...

....

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jimbrown
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 56 Cochise cnty Az
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2005-04-10          109647

I do not know what 7 ac would rent for in Pa but I if you do not use it I would consider renting it. I would do it for a 6 months or a year to start with. I would just draw up a simple contract where he is responsible for the fence and the animals. If he has to build the fence he might insist on a year contract just to make sure he does not build you a free fence. If you ever hauled water to animals you would gladly provide the water. I doubt you are talking about more than 25 gallon a day, so if you want charge a little for the water you could. I would bet once you get used to the horses being there if you ae any kind of animal lover you will be petting them in a week. You also may find the the horses run the gophers and ground hogs off just by stepping on their holes. ....

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funchy
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 128 north eastern corner of Maryland
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2005-04-10          109653

re: liability

If the fence is in good order and through freak accident he escapes,you are usually protected. If you are responsible for fence maintenance and don't...and he keeps breaking free 10 times till a car accident happens, then it's likely you will be legally responsible. The law understands that an animal escaping can happen, even to extremlely careful property owners.

Also be aware of the liability you have to the horse owner. If something you are responsible for causes the injury/death of a horse, the law can force you to pay damages. Make as much of the maintenance/fencing responsiblity his (in writing); it's that much less horseowner can find fault in you for. ....


Link:   Legal Matters: Liability for horse escapes

 
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denwood
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 542 Quarryville PA
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2005-04-10          109657

Want to know how to become a millionaire in the horse business? Start out a billionaire. I spent my summers in college driving the killer truck. I have seen just about any way a horse can die. No the groundhog holes won't kill them but the 22 to the head does just fine after they break their leg in the hole and it is hanging on by a tab of skin. The more service you provide in horse boarding, the less money you will make per hour. Providing pasture is probably the best route. If you offer full boarding (grain, hay, bedding) and charge $350 per month and the horse uses 150, the 200 left doesn't go far toward the shoveling, let alone any overhead and the headache of always having to be around. That is about $7 per day for your time and space. ....

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harvey
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 1550 Moravia, NY
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2005-04-11          109665

funchy that's a good run down on the legal issue. The issue is not so much as to who's at fault anymore it's how much time and money do you have to use to defend your self from a lawyer with time on their hands and the need for income. Thankfully we still have "country" judges here. ....

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StephenR
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 230 New Tripoli, Pa.
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2005-04-11          109673

As always, alot of good advice and answers to questions I haven't thought of asking. How about this question.

How many horses per acre is comfortable? Since the land is in various grasses, I would like to keep it going and not become a mud pit. He had owned land adjoining ours and kept it well maintained with regular horse activity.

....

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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2005-04-11          109676

Harvey is absolutely right! Have the renter obtain a farm bureau policy or other excess liability type policy and require that the policy name YOU as an additional insured in WRITING. Fault has nothing to do with getting sued any longer; it is who has the assests or money......the deep pockets theory squared. In most states, the owner of the live stock is liable of any damages they cause and the land owner can be pulled into this as well. One of the prime reasons I have NOT leased out my land to hunters or for cattle grazing yet. ....

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StephenR
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 230 New Tripoli, Pa.
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2005-04-11          109677

Do horses eat lawyers? ....

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Iowafun
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 955 Central Iowa
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2005-04-12          109735

Everyone has given you good advice so far. Cover your butt is the key. When I lived in Washington state, neighbor let a friend put a horse in their field. There was a stake sticking out of some old concrete hidden by the tall grass. The horse ripped open it's belly on it. Killed the horse.

I have a friend who had one of his bulls bust out of a fence. Totalled the Honda that hit the bull (doing well over 55 mph, car that is) and almost killed the driver. 2 other cars were damaged when they came upon the accident. That was a bad one but he had insurance.

So listen the other guys and be thorough in covering your butt. Accidents do happen. ....

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funchy
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 128 north eastern corner of Maryland
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2005-05-30          111745

If you haven't read it yet, I highly recommend "Horse Keeping on Small Acerage". It'll help you decide the # horses/acre. I just learned that in some PA townships they do limit the # of horses/acre, too.

My answer: it depends alot on the land, the weather/ conditions, the horses themselves, and how everything is managed.

Will the horses be allowed to roam it during the dark, wet winter? Lots of damage happens to the grasses when horses hooves plod over dormant grass. Add to it the mud, and the soil quickly becomes compacted and bare, especially along horses' favorite spots.

Do they live on it 24/7 or is it just daytime turnout and stalls the rest of the time? Will someone be overseeding the fields or are we totally relying on nature to restore the grazed areas?

You said 4-7 acres. With proper rotation it could easily support a few horses, more if horses aren't on it 24/7 every single day. I'd divide it up into three 2ac plots & rotate. Depending on how picky you are about how the field looks, two might be the right # or you could allow 4 or possibly more. But if he said he had a dozen, I'd definitely worry! ....

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StephenR
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 230 New Tripoli, Pa.
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2005-05-31          111754

Thanks for all the advise. He decided (I think it was his wife) that they don't have extra money right now to rent and fence extra land. I did do the math on my plot and it is only 3 acres that could have been used. From this and other sources, horses can be pretty hard on the land.

I did find a dairy farmer who is taking the grass this season, whoo, I don't have to cut it. I told my neighbor he can exercise his horses on it after the last cutting if he wants. ....

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pitt_md
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 32 Pine Island, MN USA
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2007-05-30          142594

I just wanted to say that gophers and ground hogs are not run off pastures by horses. I live in Minnesota and the gophers are a huge problem for me. I am totally against using poison due to my love of hunting dogs/horses. trapping them would be a full time job due to their numbers. They create tunnels that a horse can not see but can step on and collapse. They stumble, fall, get hurt etc. The mounds that these Ba$tards create in the pasture, yards cause a big problem as well. I recently bought a rodenator system and I am having some luck with it. Expensive as hell but I am not sure what else to do with them. I think I am going to have to train my dogs not to kill the ferrel cats that roam the area. ....

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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3583 iowa
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2007-05-30          142596

Been there done that, I went from 38 zillion gophers in a 10 acre field to 0 in an hours time. Is your pastire big enough and level enough for an ordinary size farm tractor pulling an anhydrous ammonia applicator to operate in. If so check at a farm Co-op, or grain elevator that handles fertilizer, they'll know someone who will custom apply about 75-100 units per acre. If you have never handled anhydrous ammonia before please don't try to do it your self, it is nasty stuff, but completly safe in the hands of a lisensed applicatior. The horses and dogs will never know it was applied a hour afterr the man is done. Did mone 7 or 8 years ago, never had another gopher. Frank. ....

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wr5evk8jj
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 61 Haymarket, VA
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2007-05-30          142598

Frank, your response is just one of the reasons that I love catching-up with what is going on with this site. You and others have as you say, the "been there and done that" perspective sharing your background, expertise, and thoughts with us. Thanks! ....

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