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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
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2002-03-18          36483

Well, I haven’t stirred the ‘oil pot’ for a while, so here it goes with the latest observations and factoids. Dr. Peters take note. I look forward to your sage observations on the following:
1) In my area (Northern Nevada) Quaker State is advertising on the boob toob that if you use their oil and change it at their specified intervals that they (Quaker State) will warranty the internal parts of your engine for 10 years or 250,000 miles (?!!).
I didn’t believe it the first time I heard it so I waited until I heard it again. They did not specify which oil or the change interval, but to the best of my knowledge they do not market synthetic oil. Pennzoil (same outfit) does, but they usually do not cross-pollinate. This, to my mind, is astounding news. I do not think a company this size plays near the edge of the window. They gotta know that most engines treated in a similar fashion will go a half million miles or more before they make a guarantee like that.

2) Information from the Pennzoil website: Some guy with a Chevy pick-up and a really long paper route came to their attention recently. Seems he drove 800 miles a day and got his oil changed at the local quick lube every 4 or 5 days, always using some unspecified Pennzoil product. They started paying attention as the miles began to add up and when he hit one million (yes, miles) they traded his old truck for a new one and did some forensic work. Check the web site for the details, but they found cross-hatching still present on some of the cylinder walls and most of the specs within normal parameters. God only knows what the drivers seat must have looked like by then.

3) As I reported last month, much to the chagrin of some rather humorless folks, Deere is now marketing semi-synthetic oil and recommending that we owners can extend our change interval by 50 percent over whatever our owner’s manual said when we bought the machine. They go so far as to say that this is applicable to any diesel engine made by anyone, anywhere. We know for damn sure and certain that old green does not play near the edge, so what is happening here? Have we reached a time when the additive packages are that good? Or has the science of metallurgy and engine building reached a zenith? Or both? Or something more than this? I look forward to your thoughts, one and all.
Mark


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TomG
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2002-03-19          36490

I think I'd want to see some test results from an independent lab.

A cynical view might be that what is being played really close is the idea that market share is everything. Many individuals are excluded from warranty coverage due to weasel words or disinclination. The warranty may be for parts only, and many people faced with an old car and big labour costs for a rebuild may simply dump the car and get another one. There may be few people who pursue these warranties.

Creating excitement is everything in retailing, and a big warranty is exciting. If a company gains a larger market share, then they can afford to buy a few parts. Anyway, I think it's a common view now that the lifetime guaranteed exhaust systems aren't of any better quality than systems without guarantees. I guess I start out with a healthy skepticism here. Maybe there's something to new oils and additives and maybe it's mostly a marketing scheme.
....

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Peters
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2002-03-20          36542

Mark;
1) I have seen the advertising but there is fine print I am sure. The earlier program required change intervals and only Quaker State enter the engine.
It does indicate that they have confidence in their oils. From my testing they have one of the best hydrotreating processes at their new plant.
Quaker state does sell a synthetic. I used only the Quaker State semi-synthetic in the Ford I had. I found it performed as well in a none high performance engine at half the cost.
In the turbo Volvo I had up to 200K I used the Castrol full synthetic. For some reason the Quaker State is not perform as well in the heat of the turbo.
2) I have seen a couple of these. Remember that most of the wear occurs when starting and engine. This is where the oils will perform or not. If you keep an engine running constantly there is less wear. If he is on the road that much then? The oils companies normally run tests in Taxi cabs as there are a lot of starts.
Road diesel normally get more than 1M miles.
There was a small Lister diesel electric power plant that used the waste heat to heat hot water in the house and warm the house. As the system ran constantly and they had a large oil tank so it did not over heat, they were talking yearly oil changes. You could run the system on natural gas.
3) I would think it is more likely the oil than the metal. Deeres diesel construction has not changed that much although the QC on the incoming metal is better in the last 10-25 years. Trace analysis is done before casting.
As I stated before one of the reason I have not used synthetic diesel oil is that I could not find any for sale here. Well yesterday I found some. At $108 dollars a case now I think I am looking for the semi at Deere.
....

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DarinRay
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2002-05-02          38063

It's time to change my hydraulic oil because I bent adn have to replace my tranny suction line leading from my hyd. filter. Anyway it's tough to spend the $13.50/ gal cost of super udt or even the udt costs and am looking to buy Pennzoil Hydra-Tranz instead. Even if I don't go that route I still want to know why and who makes their oils and why is it so superior... PLEASE someone here has to know who manufactures Kubota oil.

I was actually working in one of my ponds cleaning it out with my excavator (well trying) and then decided to move some fill on the bank and decided to run over the spoil first and then get a better footing. Well the pile was combined with major rock (easily 2 feet in diameter and bigger) Well to make along story short I managed to get almost hung up on the pile binding up my throttle linkage with the hydraulic line that runs from my hyd. filter to the trans case. I wasn't going to worry about it until I seen the bend and the angle it was entering the trans case allowing fluid to drip out and thus probably get air sucked in. I still don't know what I am going to do but have to make up my mind as the parts are coming later this week. I will probably take the easy route and just buy the Kubota oil unless I find something or someone that uses something different.

It's funny that Kubota doesn't recommend their oil in my excavator KX91-2 but states the vis. ratings and a couple manufacturers. I'm not next to the manual and can't remember who but nothing Kubota. Hmmm. But does state----don't mix oils viscosity or manufacturer... Go figure.


check this if you like

http://oil-store.com/OEM%20Specs.htm

Darin

....

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Peters
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2002-05-02          38068

Ok Darin;
How do I get paid for this consulting? Are you going to come over and dig out my ponds?
From the price the UDT should be a full synthetic oil. I can not see any indication form Kubota or any of the other manufactures that it is a full synthetic. It seems to be cross referenced to normal hydraulic oils by the manufactures.
" ... Synthetic Tractor Hydraulic/Transmission Oil exceeds the hydraulic and transmission
fluid performance ... J20C, J20D, J14C; Kubota, UDT - All; Landini - All; ... "
To reduce cost I would give you have 2 options
1) Go to a full synthetic, normally for the same price, but you may be able to find a sale. Make sure it is cross referenced with the UDT.
2) Use one of the cross referenced natural oils. The Pennziol is from their patented hydrotreating process, which from my measurements and oil engineers reports is a superior process. You can also use the Quaker State product which is just badge engineered Pennzoil. Go for the least expensive.
I am not sure how much residual oil you will have in the system. If the oil is cross reference I don't think you need to worry, just don't add a quart of a different oil. ....


Link:   Pennzoil Spec Sheet

 
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Peters
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2002-05-02          38070

PS
Personally I would decide on an oil that you are happy with for both the excavator and the tractor and stick with it. ....

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DarinRay
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2002-05-02          38074

Excellent info and thanks a bunch. You see that's what I am trying to find out which oil I can use for both hydraulic applications but one needs a trans fluid combined and the other just asks for ISO 32 or 68. I'm at a lose here because I am collecting all sorts of different oils. Dang it's mind boggling. ha,ha.

Well I bit the bullet today becaues my part arrived and I still didn't have my oil so I went to the orange store and bought the super udt which I don't personally feel it's superior though but it's my safe gaurd I guess. The service manager basically just stated that for the extra 20 buck per 5 gal you know what you have, which is true I guess but still want full syn oil for all my equipment. I also have a ford 7.3 turbo diesel which is a pain too. Certain oils, coolant, & fuel additives. WOW!!!! I just want my things to run. ha,ha.

Oh since I've got you here what the general thoughts on the coolant that is run in these machines. I've flushed and just put in fleetcharge (purple color) in both excavator and L35. In the ford I haven't finished that one yet. Thanks again.

Darin
....

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DarinRay
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2002-05-02          38076

Oops almost forgot. WHen you mentioned don't mix a quart or any oil does that mean viscosity or brands? It states something like that in the manuals and am wondering why or if I really should be concerned by doing it.

Darin
....

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Peters
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2002-05-02          38082

I would think the trans/hydraulic oil is probably a better grade than the regular oil. According to the spec sheet the Hydro-Tranz is a ISO 68. Go for it.
Do not mix oils from different manufactures, unless it is a necessity. Even the different sources of for the oil (each well - area is different could cause some incompatibility problems. It is better to be safe than sorry. Certainly do not use the old oil can that maybe some years old. The SAE codes tell you that the new oil is far different than the old. Start a antique collection.
As for anti freeze I normally just look for multi metal compatibility and have been using the low tox propylene glycol in the tractors. Again I am looking for something I can buy by the case and can use in anything. My Cummins has a aluminum rad so I need to be careful.
I am not prone to using the OEM (original equipment manufacture) oil. I do with the Deere as the oil is the same price as the other oil commonly sold in this area Dutch oil, but in general I would rather buy oil from an oil and refining company. I am unsure about Dutch oils refining so I stick with JD. The reason I do not normally buy the OEM material is that they will change suppliers based on price not necessarily quality of the product. You may have totally different oil in the can with the same label.
On example is batteries, Dekka (east penn manufacturing), Delco, Johnson Control, Exide, GNB and two other small players make car batteries in this country. All the others are just labels slapped on the side of the case, so to speak . What do you get if you buy a Diehard. Who knows? ....

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TomG
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2002-05-03          38096

Regarding coolants: There are coolants specifically for diesels. I believe they are low-silica types and have additives to reduce cavitation.

Some diesels are especially prone to cavitation, and the additive degrades over time. I believe that test strips and additives are on the market--wish I could recall what it's called. For engines that are especially prove to cavitation, I've heard of drip systems that continuously replenish the additive.

Excessive cavitation can erode water jackets and wet sleeves to the point of leaking coolant into the crankcase. However, I haven't heard that excessive cavitation is a problem in typical compact tractor engines. My dealer just recommends changing coolant every two years—something not mentioned in my manuals.
....

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DarinRay
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2002-05-03          38104

Thanks guys for all the info. Now I have to get oilly changing that hydraulic line. ha,ha.

Darin
....

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DRankin
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2002-05-03          38105

For future reference: I was in the local WalMart last weekend and found the most extensive stock of lubricants I have ever seen in one place. They have a house brand hydraulic fluid that meets the specs for Deere and several other tractor manufacturers. It was priced right and avaiable in one and five gallon containers. FYI. ....

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Peters
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2002-05-03          38108

Noticed the same here. Could not even find the synthetic diesel oil in this area. Now it is available at Wallyworld. ....

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JIMh
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2002-10-19          43985

Reading the BBS I noticed a lot of old timer lean towards synthenic oil. I never trusted the low bid oil used in new Mfg of cars and trucks. I always changed oil just after the recommend break in. I never used synthenic products but you guys convenienced me for long term stability and durability its the best.
Please assist in a few questions.
1.Getting all the old oil out and then mixing new synthenic is it ok for the these two different items to mix?
2.Amsoil brand appear to be the best so I purchased all Synthenic fluids for the change at 50 hrs. Oil, Hydro, MFWD gear oil, grease, filter, etc. Do you Master JD owners see any problem with the conversion?
3.What about a hydrotransmission filter other than JD?
....

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Art White
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2002-10-19          43988

Peters it is not quite true as to the manufacturers labels. When Case bought out IH they were using Viscosity Oil to make there oil. They told Viscosity they were fine with there own and they wouldn't need them, Viscosity tested Case's oil and found they were not getting what they asked for, they bought out Viscosity. We still use them today. ....

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Peters
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2002-10-19          43990

Art;
The fact that Viscosity is a competent blender with a long history of blending mineral oils does not really give me the warm and fuzzies. As a mineral oil is 90% the base oils used and they are only relying on their suppliers. How do you think they would compare to Pennzoil/Quaker state base hydrotreated base stocks or PetroCanada's older HT process?
A company like Shell will supply their lubricating base stock to anyone. Companies like QS and Castrol will not as they are depending on their own refining to provide better qualities to their oil.
Improvements we have seen in oils have come through better base stocks and the additives.
The fact FL/IH/NH bought a blending and packaging line does not mean that they have their own oil supply. Viscosity may be forced to buy lower quality stocks to meet their price constraints. Their suppliers may ship lower spec oil to dispose of poor oil.
Think I read that they recieved QS-9000 certification in 1998, automotive suppliers were required QS-9000 certification for about 10 years. ....

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Peters
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2002-10-19          43995

Art;
You are right 90% of the wear on any engine are during start up. You need the very thin film of oil on the cylinder walls and the pressure in the bearings to provide the lubrication.
I have talked about it before but for example a P&W Wasp engine originally designed in the thirties has a TBR (time between rebuilds) of 2000 hrs. This is in a airplane that must have a substantual safety margin. (The fan stops spinning you are going down). The engine is relatively low reving but the main difference between this and a gas auto engine is that when you start it the magnetos are on a separate switch and you cycle the engine until the oil pressure is up to operating pressure before you provide gas and ignition. More modern aero engines have this on an automatic switch, but the key is to reduce wear at start up.
To put this into prospective an engine designed in the 30's does the equivalent of 100,000 miles with spare time on the engine.
An engine such as the 600/600 Cummins are warantied for a million miles or so many months. The main difference is that they remain running almost continuously.
....

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Art White
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2002-10-21          44053

Peters, I guess I wasn't thinking about the possibility to buy lower quality stock to work from. Good point, I know I have customers who will buy hay from different places shooting for a higher quality of feed than they could produce for the year and they often sell theirs that they produced.. The oil requirements that IH set up that Viscosity builds for them is what I have been most impressed with. The 3000 hours of full throttle full load on diesel and 1500 hours on gas engines. Knowing some of what they experienced getting the oils and engines to live doing it I believe helps. Listening to different salepeople tell of there oils and asking them questions helps for me to keep up with the industry. I have heard a lot of good about synthetics, but My own experimentation with them 15 years ago was not a good one. I do believe they have improved, but have yet to find anyone who has been able to explain why and how. ....

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Peters
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2002-10-21          44054

Art;
Most of the work I have done with oil relates to their use and break down in battery separators.
I can explain from a chemical point of view why the synthetics are better and why a number of years ago they did not perform as well, but it would be from a chemists point of view and I am not sure that the average person would get much from it. I can give it another shot trying to get it clear if you like.
I also had poor success with the synthetic a few years ago. As I have stated in other posts I tried Royal Purple more than 25 years ago, but found little improvement in gas milage or performance.
I think the newer synthetics are much better and can explain why or at least why I believe they are better from my chemical knowledge. ....

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Art White
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2002-10-22          44066

Mine was TF580 for snowmobiles. I lost two engines to it before I could get away from it. I am not a chemist although I have a parts man with extensive backgorund. I Know what the Case oil is given the conditions somebody doesn't screw up the formulas. I have tractor trailer owners that have switched to it and gotten better mileage as well as less oil consumption after the 500,000 mile mark. I've seen engines torn down to rebuild that aren't loaded with carbon and the surfaces clean but I have also seen the synthetics that are making a difference. I think after all said and done that it should be a better oil after all we make the whole thing, shouldn't it be exactly perfect. I've never had a good person to ask this but I think you have the ability to answer. When viscosity enhancers break down in a motor oil do they stay suspended in the oil? Don't know if I asked that right but I've built a few engines in my day and have not had any luck using multi weights and maintaining the oil pressure. ....

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Peters
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2002-10-22          44095

OK Art here goes.
Background
Normal mineral based crude oils are not single components but a mixture of thousands of different chemicals. (as are their fractions diesel, lubricating oils and gasoline). Each oil well (oil baring structure) has a different mixture of chemicals unique to itself, like a finger print.
The organic chemicals (constructed of oxygen, hydrogen, carbon, nitrogen and sulfur)are a mixture up of aromatic, cyclics, branched and linear molecules. These molecules are conjugated (double bonds) and saturated (single bonds). Aromatic chemicals have extended conjugation in cyclic forms (alternating double and single bonds). One of the main aromatic compounds is naphthalene. Crude oils are often charaterized as naphthanic or paraphinic. Naphthanic (or asphaltic) oils have viscosities that have greater temperature dependancy therefore parafinic oils are generally used for motor oils.
What causes oil break down?
Physically the temperature, pressures, friction and acids.
Chemically the breaking of the longer oliomeric chains into shorter units and the reaction of units to form longer polymeric units (automotive varnish).
What makes a chemically stable oil?
Few reaction sites for chemical break down.
Initially the Penn crudes were found to be good lubricants as they were older oils and had less conjugation and were high in saturates. As these crudes type have become scarse, (they were never plentiful) oil companies have developed hydrogenation treatments or hydrotreating to lower the unsaturation content.
Unfortunately this does not tell all the story as there are other chemical components in the oil that can self stablize the oil from break down.
What are synthetic oils?
Synthesized linear oils of ethylene, organic esters or ketones. Ethylenes are often used for motor oils. To these bases antioxidants and other modifiers are added to stablize the oils.
The advantage is that these oils are more stable and have known chemicals in there make up. The oils are made of only the components that provide lubrication not the other materials.
Why are the synthetic better now than 15-20 years ago?
The chemists have developed better stabilization of the oils. The oils manufactures have developed better blending of more than one synthetic base to provide better protection and compatibility.

Why were there problems like those with the synthetic snowmobile oils?
Compatibility! Solubility is basicly, like likes like. A material will dissolve in a similar material. If I have a gas which is a mixture of chemicals and test the new oil in these materials and then you buy gas for a different distributor or well etc. At low temperatures the synthetic may not be soluble and the lubrication may fail.

Do the viscosity enhancers stay soluble. I guess it depends on which visosity enhancer, there seems to be new after market materials on the infomercals every day. For multiweight oils the materials are just different weight fraction oils. Other materials like teflon are difficult to keep in solution, but if it is a small molecule you need to think whether it can react to form a higher molecular weight polymer like the varnishes that form in an engine. If it breaks down and forms smaller molecules it will likely evaporate. I have not seen many that provide real chemical info as to what you are adding, therefore have not tried many and have not seen any advantage from those I have tried. ....

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Art White
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2002-10-23          44103

Peters, I've often heard that the Penn crude was the best base stock oil available. There still can be good crude and not enough additives to do the job, same as the synthetics. I also feel that the synthetics will work excellent in many applications. I feel that in the northeast we often change our oil do to the seasons more on much of the equipment than because it is expended. I am not refering to the fact that we are changing it because of the temp swing but because of the condinsation. We have some non-commercial accounts that only put 50 hours per year. We are getting more uses of the syntethics in our end of the industry and of coarse those sucesses bring more comfort. As with all things in life, change is a constant, right with death and taxes. My intitial experience cost me about $2000. of engine repairs and that was about 15 years ago. They did everything except the longevity, had less smoke and fumes and I think I did get some better plug life. Plugs are cheap compared to an engine so I normally setup just a little richer now. ....

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Peters
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2002-10-23          44107

Art;
As you may have noticed I have not been a proponent of synthetics for all applications. Depending on the base stock the synthetic will be less suseptable to holding water but you still need to warm the engine once in a while to allow the water to evaporate.
I have always been worried about the amount of soot generated in a diesel engine and prolonging the change scheduals. I but on about 100 hrs on my tractors and change them 2x per year. The cost of going to synthetics is not going to pay for itself.
I have seen improvements in the break down of the oil with gasoline engines, but have kept the oil change scheduals.
I recently put synthetic in the Cummins truck engine, so I will how it performs.
Like you I think there is an application and certainly the long haul road truck or fleet vehicle that runs 8 hrs a day can use it. I guess the farm applications where they place a lot of hours on their equipment also, but it is more sparatic. You tend to put on a lot of hours in the spring and fall and then let it sit all winter.
Like you this may be climate dependant. Some place in the dry plains would have a different schedule. Look at the farmers in SK and you see grain trucks from the 50's which have been run for a few hours and then placed in a barn for 50 years. ....

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Art White
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2002-10-26          44222

Peters, going back and forth with the criterea that they use for testing the oils to see if they are a CD or SH or what ever, none are tested for full throttle full load like a farm tractor is at roughly 90 percent of the hours run on them. The diesel tests have been for 1/3 and 1/3 as that is what they figure the big rigs are running where roughly 85 percent of the diesel oil is used. The cars and pickups for the most part are figured on a 1/4 load and throttle and with needing to servive a measly 60 hours I don't put much stock in the test as that is the equivelent of roughly 3600 miles. I change my oils with good oil and go 4000 miles plus depending on summer with less warm up time and very tight to the 4000 miles in the winter. I guess the biggest thing is if we are getting what we need from what we are doing as ther will always be a better way. ....

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Peters
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2002-10-26          44244

Tractors are used in a similar way to marine engines. The highest grade for diesel motor oils is currently the CH-4 for high speed 4 stroke diesels with low sulfur content fuel. I have not seen specific grades for marine engine oil, most are the same as the heavy duty diesel.
....

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Art White
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2002-10-28          44306

This is where I have trouble with the likes of amsoil these companies say there oil is good with diesel as well as gas and yet the two motors need different mixtures to have a good life in each with normal or regular motor oils. High grade motor oils for diesel need a total base number of 11 or better and at least 1.3 or better on ash content and you don't need ash to that degree in a gas engine. How do they do it? Anyone know? ....

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