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tomrscott
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 96 Newberg, Oregon
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2005-02-12          105970


I might finally get some time to get in some practice welding tomorrow. Thinking a bit about what to use for practice, with a mind toward building up to welding new ends on a couple of hydraulic cylinders for my TNT project (three ball pin sockets, and one large clevis).

I've got a lot of 1/8" sheet steel from some scrap equipment cabinets. I've also got some 3/8" plate and 3/8" x 4" x 4" angle stock. Some old 5/8" foundation "J" bolts, a couple odds and ends like an old worn forged clevis, etc. I've also got a bit of 4" x 4" x 1/4" box tubing, but I'd like to save most of that for real projects and not burn it up in practice.

Is it easier to begin with big stuff so you can work the puddle more slowly, or would it be easier to work with some of the 1/8" that I have the most of?

I've got a couple big chunks of aluminum an inch thick or more, a 22' disk, and a 16" x 24" platform that I was thinking might make a decent work surface for some small pieces?

The rod I bought is 7018 1/8", and 6011 3/32", but of course I can get something else, that's just what I happened to get. Given what I have to work with, what seems like a good fit?

In general; clean the surfaces bright with a wire wheel, stripping off paint and rust? Cut bevels for thick stuff? For larger joints, tack weld pieces together and then work a bead a little bit at a time from opposite directions to minimize "creep" of the joint from thermal expansion? Clean off the slag of each layer before laying on another bead?

A friend said that in his college welding class, the teacher had them weld together two pieces of 4" angle stock, making four of the six sides of a cube, and then lay on layer after layer of weld beads till they had a 4" cube made of nothing but layer upon layer of weld beads framed by the angle stock. Then they took a band saw and cut them in half and were graded on the uniformity and density of penetration with no voids. Seemed like a pretty good exercise.

Oh, my welder is a Miller Thuderbolt 225A AC/DC, and I've got a good fat 50A circuit with solid 240VAC (branch circuit coming from a 400AMP service!), should be plenty of power.

And I also have a Hypertherm Powermax600 20-40 amp plasma cutter to cut pieces and patterns out. I am going to be using the gouging tip to remove some welds to get the 3/8" angle stock loose from a large plate. Also going to use the plasma to cut the existing ends off of the hydraulic cylinders mentioned above.

I was thinking that I could use the J-bolts to simulate welding ends on the hydraulic cylinder rods. Maybe weld it to a big plumbing fitting or something...

Given all this that has been rattling around in my head all week, looking forward to a weekend to get a first crack at it, any advice beyond "Just do it!"?




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denwood
Join Date: Jul 2004
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2005-02-12          105985


Well I am sure many people will all have differing opinions on all this. My 2 cents as a hobby welder: When you weld new ends on cylinder for real, be careful of getting the internal seals too hot and melting them. I guess short of dismantling it, extend it all the way and protect the shaft from splatter. Possibly wrap some sort of heat sink around the shaft at the opposite end. I know the rod you bought is rated for AC and DC, but not being a pro and just taking advice of others, I have found 6011 to be better on AC and 7018 to be better on DC. My dad always says odd numbers AC even DC? 6011 gives very good penetration but an uglier weld so I run it on the lower pass to get deeper and then 7018 on top to be pretty, and stronger. I am relatively new to 7018, just finishing my first 5 pound box since I did not have a DC machine before. I used to use 6013 for pretty stuff. My 7018 runs beautifully but once you stop, it is a pain to start again compared to 6011 and 6013. It seems the end coats over with slag and you will see how miserably hard that slag is compared to the 60xx rods. Certainly thicker is easier especially for 6011. I run my 7018 1/8 inch around 140- 145 amps dc and 6011 1/8 around 125 ac. for thicker metals. ....


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jdcman
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 103 washington
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2005-02-13          106036


Tom,

Question, how confident are you with puddle recognition? Can you identify the molten metal vs molten flux? For stick welding puddle manipulation is all about the recognition of what's happening as you move the molten pool along the material.

My recommendation is to use a thicker piece of material, say 3/8 or 1/2 thick and practice running stringer beads until you can get them at a consistent thickness and shape. The reason I'd recommend the ticker material is because it won't heat as fast, allowing you to put down several passes and to fine tune your technique without having to adjust for the thermal issues. (More practice runs before the next piece).

There are many texts out there that will show the rod angle and discuss the rod manipulation.

I might also suggest that you start with DC positive polarity and E6010 --- It just runs nicer than the AC 6011.

Low Hy is fine after the practice with the 6010. In my opinion 6010 is much more forgiving when it comes to beginners.

The point is to start with flat beads/welds before you move to the filets.


One last point --- get comfortable. This will become extremely important as you move to out of position welding, (something other than flat welds).

Then it's all about practice, practice, practice and having fun!

Good luck.
....


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tomrscott
Join Date: Dec 2004
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2005-02-14          106038


Thanks for the advice, that all makes a lot of sense. I will pick up some E6010 rod. What diameter do you recomend for practice on 3/8" or 1/2" scrap?

I decided to bite the bullet and try something productive right off. I cut up some 1/8" plate that I have a lot of. Cut out a pattern with the plasma cutter, and welded up a two piece bracket to bolt my TNT control valve to the ROPS with some 3/8" rectangular U-bolts. I'll have to put up some pictures. It's too complicated to describe very well, but it mounts the valve to the ROPS at a 45 degree forward tilt with the back of the valve mostly behind the ROPS so that the hydraulic fittings are right where I need them. It also compensates for some of the ROPS outboard tilt.

Well anyway, back to welding: I used some E7018, and didn't have too much trouble. I managed to get some real strong welds without making too big a mess. It did require a bit of grinding to clean up the mess I made, but the result is quite functional, if several miles short of professional. I guess I like the philosophy somebody else proposed: (paraphrasing) "Do something useful, do it the best you can, and if it comes apart do it again better the next time."

I'll put some pictures of the finished product later, but I was pressed for time and didn't get any in the process.

But, I do like your advice and am going to follow it. Doing that job convinced me that I don't have a good feel for the puddle control. I probably did everything wrong; tilted the rod the wrong way, didn't move the rod tip around enough, forgot to keep moving the rod in closer as it got shorter, etc. But I actually got some very stout welds, didn't make any holes where I didn't want them (well one little one, but as the design evolved, it ended up in the scrap pile anyway).

Anyway, my TNT valve is mounted right where I wanted it. With a little JD green paint it'll look great.

Welding is fun! (almost as fun as plasma cutting ;-) ....


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beagle
Join Date: Jan 2004
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2005-02-14          106042


Tom, I thought this might be useful information for you. Maybe you know this, but from the first part of the discussion, it would seem to be useful. For rod designations, the numbers for electrode classifications work like this:

For example E-7018
First two numbers are the consumable strength in ksi,
( kips per square inch)

Third number is the allowable positions for the rod
1 All Position
2 Flat and Horizontal only
4 Flat, Horizontal, Vertical Down, Overhead

Fourth Number indicates the type of Flux coating and current
0 and 5 indicate DC Electrode Positive only
1, 4 and 7 can be AC, DCEP, or DCEN
2 is DCEN only
All others are AC or DCEP only

I won't list the types of coatings here, you can get that off the consumable carton.

Just one other comment, don't leave open boxes of rod laying around. The moisture content of the rod has a lot to do with the quality of the weld you can produce. AWS does not allow rods to be left to the atmosphere for more than two hours without re-baking them. If you do have open consumable cartons, and an understanding wife, bake the rods in your oven at 250 degrees for two hours before using them. You can rebake them as many times as you need to. Dry rods will help you create consistent weld pools and profiles.

Hope this helps.


....


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treeman
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2005-02-15          106160


Your 6010-DC/ 6011AC rod is a deep penetrating rod which is good for root passes on rusty dirty base metal. Normally it is best to "stitch" weld with these rods which takes practice. The 7018 rod is basically a cover rod. It doesn't dig deep to get rid of porosity or go through rust. It does put a nice looking cover on your root passes especially if you do a weave. A good beginner rod is the 6013AC rod. It's between the 6011 and 7018. It doesn't do anything great but it's one of the easiest rods to use. ....


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BillMullens
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2005-02-16          106228


Remember that 7018 is a contact rod; if the arc length is too long, impurities will enter and leave visible porosities in the weld. Done well, these will make a beautiful weld. They were recommended to me for use on high-carbon steels, with my AC-only welder. Also had a batch of these rods that weren't in a sealed container, and made ugly welds. Dry rods helped a lot.

I don't like the spatter of 6011, had trouble getting them to strike on my 110 welder, so never used them again. I prefer 6013, even with my 220 welder.

Fun, isn't it?

Good luck,
Bill ....


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beagle
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2005-02-16          106229


7018 is the most commonly spec'd rod for structural welds with low carbon steels, like structural shapes. About every spec we deal with calls for 7018 rod. It produces quality welds in any position, and can be easily quality controlled in the field. It can be run AC or DCEP. It also has the advantage of easy slag removal. Should be a good all purpose rod for mild steels. ....


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BillBass
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 190 North Texas
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2005-02-16          106230


Here is some good basic info on rods. ....


Link:   Welding rods

 

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k9fletch
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2005-02-16          106238


Here is another link to some basic welding info from ESAB. ....


Link:   

Click Here


 

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tomrscott
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 96 Newberg, Oregon
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2005-02-17          106295


Very new weldor "Dumb question of the day":

What affects how much filler is deposited into the weld? I haven't had much time on the arc yet, but the little I have, a couple of times, just about the time I think I am getting a good puddle and moving it around, I have had it burn through a couple of times rather suddenly.

Is this purely a function of not keeping the stick moving around enough? Or does the length of the arc have an effect as well? Sometimes I have found that as the stick gets shorter, I forget to keep moving in closer to compensate. Can this contribute to burn through?

Approaching this question from the other direction, do you deposit more material with a shorter arc, or with a longer arc, or does it make little difference?

My other reason for asking is that I have some 1/8" steel plate with a couple drilled holes ranging from 3/16" diam to 1/2" diam that I would like to fill with weld. What would the process for this be? Would you stand the panel vertically and then try to lay a bead around the lower circumference of the hole? Or should you lay the panel down flat with some backing behind the hole, maybe a thick chunk of aluminum plate so the steel won't stick? Or ???

Thanks!
....


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denwood
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2005-02-17          106334


for filling those holes, I would use smaller rod than 1/8" in a low penetration rod like 6013 or other, and therefor a lower amp setting. I would also fill the holes as much as possible with a scrap of steel, with a plasma cutter that should be easy. Anyone out there have a good material for template making? I was thinking poster board. Luan seems too difficult, cardboard is also. Please something readily available and cheap, not the extra stuff the new reactor core was wrapped in when you were working at the nuke plant and they were just going to throw it out ;) ....


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beagle
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2005-02-18          106368


We use ceramic backing material for complete penetration welds when the backer bars can't be left in place. Ceramic works well and provides a solid backer surface without inclusions in the weld. Never used alluminum, but don't believe it would be a good backer material. Keep your arc length short. Increasing the arc length will cause excessive spatter and inconsistant weld profiles. If you are having blow thru, you need to go to a smaller rod and lower the current. ....


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jdcman
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 103 washington
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2005-02-18          106429


Tom,

Just a couple of thoughts, I'll try to address the burn through issue first.

I assume that you are working with material of about 1/8 in thickness.

What's your current setting? A good rule of thumb is about 1 amp / mil of thickness, or about 125 amps to start on a 1/8 inch thick piece of material. Mind you this is only a starting point and should be adjusted accordingly. I suspect that you will most likely run about 90 - 100 amps. Also, I might recommend that you look into getting some 3/32 rod if you can find it, (if you do a lot of work on 1/8 material).

The other assumption is that you are trying to use a 6010 or 6011 type rod.

These rods are what are commonly referred to as "whipping" rods. Originally designed for "out of" position work.

The trick to controlling burn through is in the movement of the rod. Think of it as a "dabbing" technique. Form the puddle, slightly whip the rod out of the puddle, (thus slightly solidifying it), then move ever so slightly back. Imagine trying to lay a stack of coins in the direction of weld travel. Try and keep the width of the bead no wider than the width of the rod. If the piece gets too hot the higher the likely hood of burn through.

Yes, those size holes can be easily filled without backing. Lay the material flat, lower the current to the bare minimum to establish the arc and lay a short piece of weld. Let it cool some and lay the next weld. Of course smaller holes can be welded all at once. Be sure to knock out any slag prior to welding. You can't get a decent weld over a slag inclusion.


Another point, folks have been talking about the higher deposit / shallower pen rods. Yes they give a nice looking bead, but the problem is again in puddle recognition for a beginner. They are much more prone to give the beginner fits with regard to slag inclusions until he or she becomes proficient at seeing what's going on in the puddle.

Keep it up and have fun.
....


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tomrscott
Join Date: Dec 2004
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2005-02-19          106435


jdcman, (and others too!)

Thanks for all the detail. This is very helpful. I'm so busy trying to hack my way through real jobs that I want to weld, that I've not spent enough time to learn how to do ir right. But I am going to take some time to really practice too. I know that I have a lot to learn about puddle control.

One thing I learned tonight is how it acts when the current is too low to draw a decent arc. Just couldn't do anthing but stick the rod over and over. Finally ran the amps up and got an arc.

The only rod I've used so far is 3/32" 6011 and 1/8" 7018. Both seem to work pretty well. I've not really done enough work to see a difference yet. I just need a lot more practice.

To tell you the truth, the good thing about welding is that it gives me an excuse to use the plasma cutter to cut out parts (grin)! Plasma cutting is fun!

I read a plasma cutter review article where the author bought a Hypertherm 600 just like mine, and said that by the end of the evening, he had about twice as many pieces of scrap steel at just about the same tonnage. Then he said something like "... must... use... power... for good!..." (grin). It's really true. ....


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tomrscott
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2005-02-20          106470


I like that rule of thumb: 1 amp for each mil of thickness...

But what if you are welding a piece of 1/8" to a piece of 1/2", do you set it for the 1/8" thickness, on the theory that they weld only has to penetrate 1/8" into the 1/2" piece? ....


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jdcman
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Posts: 103 washington
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2005-02-20          106471


On my machine I would set it at about 110 and focus the bead on the 1/2 material.





....


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swan8706
Join Date: Jun 2010
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2010-06-10          171475


7018 welding rods is a basic heavy coated hydrogen controlled iron powder welding electrode depositing Radiographic quality weld with medium penetration and least spatter, electrodes for welding of mild steel having good tough report subzero temperature down to 300C. It gives sound, crack-resistant welds on mild and low alloy steels, metal recovery of electrodes 120% approx. Also it is cheap welding rods and all of our welding electrodes for sale is at a fairly low price. Kindly advice: keep dry before using.




SPAM removed by moderator Murf. ....


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earthwrks
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2010-06-10          171477


Nice try hawking your stuff here. But you are not allowed to that here so it is called SPAM. ....


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HawaiiAl
Join Date: Jun 2010
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2010-06-30          171964


Get yourself an old refrigerator place 100 watt lite bulb inside will keep your rods dry.also get your self some 6013 rod they call it farm rod will repair anything, rusty, oily, old steel and makes a good looking weld, will stick any mild steel together. 7010 is a good cover weld and is strong but you need practice to do it right.6010 is good for deep pentration and fast fill. was a pipe fitter 55 years always welded pipe with 6010 out covered with 7018
high pressure as boilers 7018 Have fun. ....


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auerbach
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2010-06-30          171968


Interesting thread. Even if half a decade old.

Let me add this for novice welders. Each of the four digits identifying the rods have a meaning, which you might want to find out. ....


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