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tomrscott
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 96 Newberg, Oregon
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2005-01-05          103496


I don't have much experience welding, I've done just a tiny bit of stick and a lot of propane soldering.

I've got a huge sheet of 1/4" thick structural steel about 57 inches wide by 19 feet long that I am thinking about cutting up into tractor wheel weight disks. I don't have a complete welding rig, but I do have gas welding torches and regulators, just no gas cylinders. When we moved my elderly father up here the movers wouldn't move the bottles, even empty, so he gave them to a friend but brought the rest of his rig. I guess Oxy/Acetylene would be about the best way to cut that steel up? Short of a plasma rig that is ($$$). Would it cost me a fortune in gas to cut that steel into about forty-eight 16" disks?

By my rough estimate, that is about 340 pounds per wheel! in a fat 6" stack. Some of those plates would have to have a small cutout for the valve stem. Maybe it would pay to cut it up into more manageable pieces and then hire someone to cut it for me? Including some 4" flanges here and there, this chunk of steel should weight over 1000 pounds. The previous owner of the property left it here and it hasn't moved much since we moved in. It would actually be good to put it to use and get rid of it.

I can't see doing it with a sawzall? Any other ideas?

At about 50.25" circumference per disk, what is a reasonable cutting rate for 1/4" structural steel
plate, gas and time?




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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3583 iowa
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2005-01-05          103497


Plasma doesn't work too well on old rust coated steel, acetylene and oxygen are getting high priced plus you're talking about an immense amount of cleanup with a hand grinder to make all those discs fit. And to complicate things more than likely the discs you cut out are going to heat warp with acetylene. I really don't want to be a gloom and doomer about your project but why not just buy a set of weights, I think you'll spend less in the end. Frank. ....


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yooperpete
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1413 Northern Michigan
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2005-01-05          103499


We have an O-Max waterjet cutting machine at our shop. They are out of Kent, WA. Maybe you can locate a machine in your area. There are several machine manufacturers in the US. We can cut shapes or designs up to several inches thick in steel. It don't care if it is rusty or not. You can cut glass and almost anything. You get clean crisp cuts with accuracy. ....


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AV8R
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 882 North Central Wisconsin
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2005-01-05          103513


You may find a local fabrication/welding shop in your area who might "trade" or partially trade your big sheet for the discs you need. There is some value to a 1000# sheet of steel, even if it is old and rusty. Call around. ....


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Iowafun
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 955 Central Iowa
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2005-01-05          103517


I'd look at all the previous suggestions and go with the best cost solution. I wouldn't cut it yourself. Your time isn't worth it. But there should be machine shops in the area with a water jet or laser cutter. Those are programable with the shape and can cut a pattern out much faster and with less cleanup than you could do.

They may have some interest in the left over steel. Prices have gotten out of whack over the last year for steel and scrap steel. Check with a local scrap metal buyer, they may pay you enough for your sheet to make going out and buying a set of weights acost effective solution. ....


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tomrscott
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 96 Newberg, Oregon
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2005-01-05          103524


I should have said in the first posting, this steel isn't rusted at all! It has some sort of a dull smooth brick read coating (not rust) like a rust inhibiting paint dip, or some other coating?

I'd be happy to find someone to cut it for me. What would a shop with water jet or something charge to cut it into 48 16" disks? I can do the rest of the drilling easily enough.

I admit I am cheap, but six hundred pounds of wheel weights costs almost enough to buy a used plasma cutter! This sheet is free. I can write off my time as training. But I don't want to be completely stupid about being penny-wise, pound foolish.

So an oxy/acetylene cutting torch would cut it, but leave too much flash around the cut that would require grinding off.... Can somebody swag estimate the cost in fuel?

I've got a small local steel yard I could try to sell/swap it to, but he'd still have to come get it, I don't have any way to haul it to him.

I still like the idea of a bunch of easy to handle 14 lb weights from free steel... It's just a problem of "removing the little bit of steel that is keeping that sheet from being a bunch of disks." The scrap left over would be about 400 pounds by my estimate.

I would actually like to keep the scrap for welding into other tractor implement projects. Part of the scrap would be some long straight pieces with a rolled edge. Like 1/4" thick angle stock with 4" and 1"-2" flanges. ....


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yooperpete
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1413 Northern Michigan
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2005-01-05          103529


I'd be careful with some rust inhibitor style coating. You could end up sick as hell from the fumes using a torch or plasma. Waterjet wouldn't put out any fumes.

A 16" diameter disk has about 50" around the periphery. It would take about 2.3 minutes to cut one having a finish just slightly better than a plasma cut. A nicer finish like machined would be 5 minutes. Most shops are selling machine time at about $125.00/hr. The mounting holes can also be cut at the same time which would add some to the total.

Hope this gives you a basic idea.

P.S. Someone that I know spent a weekend tearing down an old house and burning the pieces. By the end of the weekend he was dizzy and finally collapsed. He was in intensive care for a week and the hospital staff thought he would die. He got poisoned by the fumes and it took them a week to detox him. ....


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tomrscott
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 96 Newberg, Oregon
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2005-01-05          103531


What is price steel going for per pound these days?

I guess recycle value, and cost contribution to new fabrication are two different numbers.

sounds like waterjet cutting for just the disks would cost ~$230, a lot less than tractor weight prices for 680#! ....


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tomrscott
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 96 Newberg, Oregon
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2005-01-05          103532


On the other hand (fumes, etc.) I don't know anyone close by that has waterjet rig, and there's still the problem of hauling it there. I can manage to get good ventilation doing it outdoors.

Harbor freight has a plasma cutter for $800 that ought to do the job. Pay half the cost of the plasma cutter in one job!

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Category.taf?CategoryID=293&pricetype=

35 amps, says it will do 3/8" steel. Is it junk? ....


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Iowafun
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 955 Central Iowa
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2005-01-05          103552


Tomrscott,

Go to www.yahoo.com. The click on "Yellow Pages" and then change the location (upper right) to Newberg, Oregon. Search under "Machine Shop." You'll have to do some calling or further internet searching, but they have a list at least 10 long in Newberg, alone.

Metalworking is another search option. Or Metal Industries Shops.

I put a link below to a list of machine shops in Oregon. ....


Link:   Oregon Machine shops

 

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denwood
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 542 Quarryville PA
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2005-01-05          103568


You want to be cheap, use propane to cut. It takes longer to get to cutting temp but not that much especially on 1/4". One 20 lb cylinder (I pay about $7 for a refill) will last a long time. O2 will be the costly gas. You can use same torch but need propane tip and Hose must be "T" grade, not "R" grade. Costs a few dollars more. If you want a Plasma cutter, skip the China junk. Thermal dynamics is one of the best and one is on my future "must have" list. Check Ebay for prices on plasma cutters, they sell all sizes on a daily basis, new from dealer. You will need a good way to make an accurate circle, attachments for torch or plasma are available. ....


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tomrscott
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 96 Newberg, Oregon
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2005-01-06          103613


Sounds like maybe what I want to do is find someone with a plasma cutter and pay him to come up and cut it for me.

I've thought of buying a cheap plasma cutter and then selling it after I'm done. Could probably get enough to make it a pretty cheap way to go. On the other hand someone with their own cutter and experience could probably do it more efficiently.

I think rigging up a circle cutter is the easy part. ....


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BillMullens
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 649 Central West Virginia
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2005-01-06          103619


You already have the torches but no tanks. If it were me, I'd get the tanks and get to work. You can cut 1/4" steel at about 15"/minute. You'll be done before you know it. The fumes are a concern. Wear a respirator and work outside. By the time you get done, you'll be good at torch cutting...a valuable skill.

Good luck,
Bill ....


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tomrscott
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 96 Newberg, Oregon
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2005-01-06          103636


Correct that: I finally got out my calipers and went outside and measured the thickness just to be sure, and it turns out that it measured .380", or 3/8" with some paint on it I guess, rather than the 1/4" I was thinking it was. I guess seeing that large a piece of plate made it look thinner. That means it is more like 1500 pounds, even less likely I am going to take it anywhere.

So I can:
1) Get some gas to use with my torches and cut it up, probably end up with a lot of belt sander and grinder slag clean-up, but I would have some working welding capability and experience cutting. What would I lose about a 1/2" of material in the cut? ? $ ? ten or twelve hours behind a torch, another couple days clean-up work?
2) I can hire someone to come out and plasma cut it. $200?
3) Rent a plasma cutter and do it myself (can they be rented?), learn a skill. ??? $200 cost?
4) Buy a $1400 dollar plasma cutter and do it myself, and then sell the plasma cutter lightly used. $200 net cost?
5) Cut it into manageable pieces and take it to someone to cut the disks with either waterjet or plasma. $250 cost? ....


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Iowafun
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 955 Central Iowa
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2005-01-06          103653


Not an easy decision to make. ....


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BillMullens
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 649 Central West Virginia
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2005-01-06          103655


Long ago, I worked out a "shop rate" for myself. I would estimate how long it would take me to do it, multiply it by my shop rate, and then if I could have it done for less, I'd hire somebody else. Otherwise I'd do it myself. On your project I would come out deep in the "do it myself" zone. Plus I've always wanted to learn to cut with torches neatly. Right now I can get it done, but rough. I've seen guys that could cut 1/4" plate so that it looked like you did it with a bandsaw.

Good luck,

Bill ....


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shortmagnum
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 848 Wisconsin
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2005-01-06          103663



Larry the cable guy says,

"Get 'er done!!"
....


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beagle
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1333 Michigan
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2005-01-06          103671


Unlike structural shapes, plate is rolled to many different spcifications, and can be either hot or cold rolled. Without Mill Certs for the plate to certify what it is, making weights is probably a good application. Unless you have it lab tested, nobody will give you anything but scrap value for it. Scrap is trading for over $200/ton on the Merc Exchange, but you probably won't get anything better than 3 cents/lb from a scrap dealer.

Red paint is a common primer for structural steel and plate. If the plate was painted before 1970, it could contain lead. Almost all steel primer before 1970 was lead based. If it has been around that long, torch cutting isn't agood idea. If you know it was painted after 1970, it is probably an alkylide paint. Torch cutting will cause some irritation, but at least it isn't lead.

A decent set of bottles will cost you about $350 full, and about $80 to get refilled. They will torch cut for about 2 hours, which is at least as much time as you will need to get practiced at making a good cut. For 3/8 plate, I would recommend a no. 1 tip, and take it easy. Make yourself a template to run the torch tip against, and practice moving at a consistent speed. Use a good belt sander to clean up the edges.

That's a nice chunk of plate, unfortunately without Mill Certification reports, or a testing lab results, you won't be able to get anything but scrap price for it. ....


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tomrscott
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 96 Newberg, Oregon
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2005-01-06          103684


Beagle,

Thanks for the very detailed information. That's a very big help.

So you recomend a number 1 tip, what pressure mix should I use to cut 3/8"? I've been hearing something like 5-8 lbs on the Acetylene, and 4x, or maybe 20 to 32 lbs on the oxy? I have seen the warnings about getting some training, not tipping the bottles, not exceeding 15 pounds of pressure on the acetylene, etc. If I go the gas route, I'll take suitable precautions, read up, get some experienced help, etc.

By the way, this piece of plate is quite a bit newer than 1970 so I shouldn't have to worry about lead in the rust-proof coating. I'll wear a good respirator and have good ventilation outdoors anyway.

An earlier posting, when I thought this plate was 1/4" thick, said 1/4" would cut with gas at about 15 ipm, so maybe 3/8" would take 10 ipm? If I've got about 2500 inches of cutting to do, 2500/10=250 minutes, sounds like I've got about 4+ hours of cutting if I use gas. If a full set of bottles will cut for about 2 hours, that works out to at least one refill, but probably two because I'm inexperienced. So $350 for the initial bottles, and $160 for two refills, or about $510 with a left over set of bottles maybe about half full if I don't screw up too much.

Whether I used plasma or a torch, I am going to do enough of these disks (about 48 of them) that I am planning to make a circle-cutter jig. I've got some giant 4" loudspeaker magnets that I can use for a center pivot and just build a bar-compass with maybe a couple adjustable spacing wheels to hold the torch a consistent height above the work. Just need some simple way to clamp the torch to the "compass" arm.

Also, several people here and in other postings have been recomending either MAPP or Propane instead of Acetylene. I guess they are cheaper and maybe work as well?

Still, also thinking about plasma. I could easily buy a $1400 cutter, use it for this job and one or two little dinking-around tasks, and then sell it for maybe $1200 "almost new" with a "homebrew" circle cutter. Surprisingly, it looks like it could be cheaper to go this route than gas. Dangerous part is that I could get hooked on having a plasma cutter and decide not to sell it, and that could have real dangerous spousal consequences. ;-)

....


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beagle
Join Date: Jan 2004
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2005-01-06          103692


tom, iof you sell the plasma, let me know. I've been looking to replace my torches with a plasma outfit. The tips for a plasma can get expensive too. If you don't have good dry air, you will eat through the consumables like crazy. Make sure you have a good water separator on your air.

I would recommend a circle template over a compass arm. There is a circle cutting attachment for your torch head, they run about $250, take considerable practice, but work really well. A circle template on the other hand works well because it gives a nice surface to rest the torch tip against as you cut, and helps steady the tip. It takes less practice to get good at this method than with a compass arm.

Another option is a band saw. My saw can be used in the vertical position, and does a nice clean job of cutting arcs if they aren't too tight. You would need to cut the plate into manageable pieces, then cut the circles in the vertical position. Circles can be cut on the band saw similar to a circle cutting set up on a wood saw. Drill a hole in the center of the blank, and rotate the piece on a jig with a pin the proper distance (radius) of the circle.

I paid $750 for my band saw. ....


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denwood
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 542 Quarryville PA
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2005-01-06          103704


Ihave been told by the pros, that a good operator can turn off the gas and just use oxygen on long thick cuts to save gas. Point being the gas is not doing the cutting, just the heating to cutting temp, and keeping the flame going when not cutting. So cheap can be better. My neighbor uses only propane as well as a friend who is a commercial welder. The kerf will only be about 1/8". I use a 0 tip for all my cutting so far up to 1/2 inch, but a 1 may be better. Don't plan on only loosing $200 if you buy plasma and then sell it, I have been watching barely used ones on ebay for a while. You won't want to sell it anyway so start planning how to justify it to the spouse now. ....


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tomrscott
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 96 Newberg, Oregon
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2005-01-06          103714


So do tell, what percentage less than the new ones are the barely used ones going for on ebay? Plasma cutters that is. ....


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denwood
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 542 Quarryville PA
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2005-01-07          103767


I always search under "thermal dynamics" because that is the only kind I want. I am not brand loyal but feel they are best. I have a Lincoln mig and Miller stick. So---I just saw a like new cutmaster 38 sell for $500 as a buy it now. I really considered it a VERY good deal but I am too fussy and want a larger model with more capacity. I think they sell for around $1000 new. Several very nice model 101 sold for in the 1100-1500 range and they are about 2000+ new I think. Again maybe bigger than I need and more than I want to spend but a good deal. My smallest is a model 51 to maybe an 81 but a 101 for a steal, like half of new would get me. ....


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