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Mike
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2000-03-07          13549


I am having some 120 volt Landscape Lighting put in on my property. The contractor's crew is installing most of the wire by using straight hand shovel to put the wire in the ground under the sod grass to a max depth of about 5" to 7". He is using outdoor rated wire, and says that I don't need conduit. He has told me that I if I want to pull a building permit the inspector will insist on the wire being buried about 24" and based on the ordinances it may have to go in conduit as well. This will cost me $4 per foot extra, he says the choice is mine. The contractor says that burying the wire 24" is really over kill, and that since the wire is grounded I really have nothing to worry about, in terms of electrocution risk with the shallow install he is doing. He is using one of those plug in the wall light timer control units to turn the lights on from my kitchen. He says that I don't have to worry about shock because the lights will be off during the day when people are in the yard.I know there are a lot of electricity smart people on the board, so please help me understand the risks I am taking before I continue this project



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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2000-03-07          13551


Mike, first of all I don't understand why you are not using 12 volts d.c. for your landscape lighting, it is easier, cheaper and MUCH safer. As for the regulations, they exist for a reason, SAFETY, your tractor would probably be a little cheaper if not for the seat-belt and ROPS bar.... As for your 'contractor', if he is ADVISING you to do it this way (let alone even considering doing it) you don't want ANYTHING to do with him. If, God forbid, anyone ever got hurt I doubt your insurance company would be very happy about covering you when you INTENTIONALLY created the hazard. Think twice, do it once... Best of luck. ....


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MichaelSnyder
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2000-03-07          13552


Mike,
I have to agree with most of what Murf has posted. Personally I'm more familiar with 12VDC landscape lighting, but know the 120vac animals exist. I would not be a fan of placing 120 VAC wire only a couple of inches below the sod. I aireate our lawn, which penetrates 4"-6". Next, Lets say these lights are on a 10A or 15A breaker. I think it only takes 1/4 or 1/2 Amp across the human heart to be fatal. Add a little moisture, and the soil around the wire just turned into a bathtub with a hairdryer in it... For lack of a better example. Next, Let me present things from a different angle. If your son/daughter/wife died from electrocution, and the next day I asked you if conduit would have been worth the extra money...I'd be willing to bet you would say "It would have been worth every penny". But instead we all are generally guilty of waiting till something happens...because after all..it couldn't happen to me!! How many teen mother examples do we need.
As for the electrician, He's probably a nice local quy who's just trying to save you a few bucks, and has been "lucky" up to this point. Do as you wish, but like Murf said, electrical codes exist for a reason. If the extra money for conduit is a problem, look into 12VDC lighting. ....


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Walt
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2000-03-07          13558


Mike, The National Electric Code requires a minimum depth of 24" for type "UF" cable which is what your contractor, (I use this term loosely),is probably using. If you enclose type "THHN" or "THWN" in conduit you can bury at a depth of 18". Before I would allow a 120V circuit to be burried to a depth of 5-6 inches I would dig the trench myself.
If this guy's other work is on a par with the underground cable advise I would have no confidence in anything he does. ....


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JJT
Join Date: Jun 1999
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2000-03-07          13561


I agree with everything posted here, esp. Walt's reply. I strongly recommend running the wire in either conduit or simply 1" black plastic, (buried at least 18" deep). If you ever have an electrical issue you don't have to dig a new trench, pull new wire through the conduit with the existing wire). DO NOT DIRECT BURY LESS THAN 24 INCHES and always use conduit. A kid with a shovel can dig a big hole in a hurry! ....


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TomG
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2000-03-08          13569


Sound like strong agreement here. Me too. I'll add that 120V outdoors probably should be GFI protected. Most places require GFI for outdoor outlets, but it's a good idea for lighting as well. Murf's 12V suggestion sounds very good.

You do have to watch these contractors. A neighbour back in the city got a cheap estimate for upgrading to 200A. The contractor came out, put in a 200A panel and split several existing branch circuits. The inspector showed up and said 'You can't put a 200A panel on 100A service line.' The contractor said 'That wasn't part of the job.' The inspector said 'shut it down.'

The inspector relented and allowed 100A mains to be put in. The neighbour spent the next few months trying to get the contractor to install 200A service entrance, meter base and line.

Much much aggrevation. Agree with Murf. A contractor that doesn't know what they're doing or is willing to cut corners can get a person into a lot of difficulty. Basically, homeowners are responsible for the condition of their property. If a contractor does sub-standard work, the homeowner may have to straighten it out at their own expense. The only recourse may be to sue the contractor.
....


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Jon Eich
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2000-03-08          13570


Your main problem with burrying so shallow will be destroying the cable inadvertantly. So from this point of view, the conduit and extra trench depth makes a lot of sense. You don't want to have to dig up your yard again if you can help it. Electrocution will not really be a factor. If, for example, you decide to dig a hole for a tree on the very same spot you have your wire burried, you'll end up grounding the wire and blowing the breaker. The only thing you'll notice is that the lights no longer work and you'll have to dig another trench and lay new wire again. Do yourself a favor and rent a trencher and dig it 24" and lay down drain tile for conduit. Overkill? Yes! but a job well done. ....


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Larry in MI.
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2000-03-08          13581


I strongly disagree with Jon's post. Electrocution is a factor and is likely to happen if you cut into a buried 120 vac line. If you are lucky and are using an insulated tool when you cut into the wire you will probably not experience any harm. If you are unlucky and connect with the hot (non-earth ground) side of the line you may look like the path of least resistance to the current.... e.g. you die. Bury the wire at least 24". ....


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Mike
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2000-03-08          13585


Get rid of that contractor! Here in Montana, where I am an electrician we are required to be licensed. Many states don't and I'm not sure what state you are in, but if your state does require a license make sure your contractor has one. Your 120v lighting installation IS governed by the National Electrical Code. If you don't use rigid nonmetallic (PVC)conduit or galvanized rigid conduit, at least use UF wire burried 24". A licensed electrical contractor who has studied the NEC would not think of doing what you have described. Like the other guys have mentioned you will be ultimately responsible for your own safety. Also, make sure the timer is rated for switching the amperage load you will have on it, and make sure you will not be exceeding the ampacity of the branch circuit you will plug the timer into. A safe and efficient electrical installation is not rocket science, but is quite more involved than stringing a few wires and plugging in a cord. It takes 2000 hours of school and 8000 hours of on-the-job training, and passage a comprehensive exam to be licensed in most states. ....


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droz
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2000-03-09          13588


Electrocution is always a potential factor but remember that the current will try to flow to earth ground first (which is where all your grounds go anyway), rather than trying to go through the much higher resistance of your body. This is not to minimize the risk of course but to clarify it. I have an electrical engineering degree. ....


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Jim White
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2000-03-09          13589


Mike
If in ten years you decide to sell your home, the new buyer dies because of hitting a electrical wire that was not properly installed, who do you think will be held liable? Find out what your local codes say and follow them. Cutting corners like this is not worth years of worring about what could happen. ....


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MichaelSnyder
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2000-03-09          13593


Jim mentioned an interesting point. Am I blind in thinking that the original owner wouldn't be accountable after the sale? If so, What protects me from being liable if I sell my house, and he stumbles on something done by the original owner? Short of digging up every wire...How would I know this problem exists...?? And I'm not talking about the slimey lawyers would could make a case out of peanut coming out of its shell. ....


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Bruce Pirger
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2000-03-09          13600


While talking about conduit...what's the difference between schedule 40 PVC pipe used for plumbing and schedule 80 used for PVC conduit? I assume it is a thickness/strength issue. I have not seen the schedule 80 PVC in diameters larger than 2". Is it available? Thanks.

....


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Murf
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2000-03-09          13604


Michael, bottom line is if someone is going to sue these days they use what's called the "shotgun" approach, sue EVERYONE and let a Judge decide who is responsible for what. I got sued last year because a child got hit by a car (a gentle bump luckily), I was named because at the time of the accident the child was "unduly, excessively and needlessly distracted..." by my equipment working nearby....i.e. the kid was watching one of my tractors instead of paying attention to where he was going. Luckily the judge was reasonable (as was my lawyers bill)..... ....


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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2000-03-10          13625


I used DB2 PVC, 3" PVC drain, and even some flexible 4" drain in trenches. The DB2 is required for service lines, but almost anything, or nothing, can be used for branch circuits.

The DB2 (2") seemed heavier walled than the 3" drain and also seemed more flexible. At least I was able to put substantial bends over 20' sections without heating. Joints in the DB pipe also are designed for electrical rather than plumbing applications.

The DB seems more rugged than drain and should provide more protection for the line. However, I think that no conduit is considered protection under the codes. I believe that the same depth and protection requirements are applied whether or not conduit is used, and DB line also must be used in either case. Conduit is considered more of a convenience for future maintenance.

The DB was more expensive, and I had to get it from an electrical supplier rather than a building supply. So, why use it? First, the joints are quite secure once they are knocked together so the conduit doesn't come apart in the trench. Second, minor bends can be made to go around trees for example. And, sweeps rather than drain pipe elbows are available.

Sweeps should be avoided like the plague but they can solve problems. I think that using drain pipe elbows in a trench would be a real bad idea. The use of flexible drain also is a bad idea unless the run fairly short and straight. The line can get hung up in the corrugations if the line is pulled around a bend.
....


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gerard
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2000-03-10          13632


Bruce,
The main difference between sch 40 and 80 is the pressure rating and that primarily comes from deeper sockets in the sch80 fittings/connections. If you look at a sch40 90deg coupler vs a sch80 you'll notice the socket depth is about twice as deep on the sch80 which allows greater surface area for the solvent to adhere to. I'm not sure if the wall strength of the straight runs is signifigantly greater in the sch 80. I know commercial applications use Sch 80 because it is heavier duty and i'm sure you can get 3 and 4 in if you want to pay for it. Using sch80 for conduit seems like over kill and the fittings are more expensive than sch 40. (You could go with sch40 pipe and sch80 fittings if you wanted the extra strenght in the connections which would be a happy medium)
....


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TomG
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2000-03-10          13645


Solvant? Is that cleaning the joint surfaces, or gluing them together? could be, but I haven't heard of gluing electrical conduit together. Around here the joints are just knocked together, and that complies with code.

The conduits aren't intended to be water proof. In fact, the underground conduit ends are left open to acommodate 12" frost loops in the line below the trench floor. Of course, DB line has to used inside the conduit. Maybe other jurisdictions are different. ....


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gerard
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2000-03-11          13658


Tom - I assumed when he was talking about sch 40 and sch80 he was talking about the same pvc used in plumbing that he was going to use as conduit, hence the solvent comment. Also if you can make a watertight conduit, which is easy enough, why wouldn't you want to? I can't think of any downside to making the connections waterproof (unless you need some flex if not below the frost line and you get contraction/expansion??) Anyone with experience on laying conduit please advise if you shouldn't make fixed joint connections unless below the frost line. ....


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TomG
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2000-03-12          13680


I talked with the power company guy who did my site design. I asked about gluing the DB2 (DB2 is conduit certified for electrical use). He said: 'Don't do it,' and my trench isn't below frost line. That seemed pretty clear, but guess I don't know if that means: 'Don't do it, you can't,' or 'Don't do it, you don't have to.'

Same deal, but a little less certain, with the drain pipe I used for branch circuits. Anyway, everything is inspected, and I'll be real surprised if there ever are joint problems. There also are no sweeps or elboes anywhere.

Several reasons for not gluing are: If the conduit has to be assembled in the trench (eg. it goes through tunnels under tree roots or around gentle bends), the separate sections are a lot easier to work with. In addition, since both conduit ends are open underground, the conduit is likely to get water through the ends. Then, if the conduit has a low spot the water will puddle there and stay for ever; alternately freezing and thawing. Depending on grading and drainage, a conduit also could do a good job of piping water right to a foundation.

Finally, if there's a gas main or an old land fill that springs a leak in the area, conduit makes a good pipe for bringing gas right to a foundation wall. The conduit going up to the meter base makes a good exit and maybe right into the house. The putty that's stuffed around service entrances serves two purposes. One is to prevent humid air from the house from condensing in the meter base. The other is to prevent explosive gases from entering the house. I'm not sure I'd want to trust the putty forever, and conduit that is less than air and water tight might be better.

Anyway, I didn't glue and my work was inspected. However, I still don't know, if under codes, I can't or I just don't have to.





....


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Paul
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2000-03-17          13868


In the National Electric Code in "Table 300-5" allows you to run your wire at a depth of only 12" if all the following requirements are met: 1. It is a residential branch circuit 2. the circuit is rated a 120 volts or less 3. it has ground fault protection 4. its maximum overcurrent protection (breaker or fuse) is 20 amps.
In the same table it also requires a depth of 6" for 30 volts or less so your 12 volt lights would have to be at least 6" deep

Hope this helps
Paul
....


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TomG
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2000-03-18          13876


That sounds great, especially for people without back hoes. That may be a fairly new code, and codes in particular states and provinces may be more stringent. I don't think there's anything yet in the Ontario codes that allow a shallow trench for GFI protected circuits, but guess I'll check.

Might be worth noting here that GFI's are good, but they do not provide complete protection and they can be aggravating. GFI's do not protect against fire from direct short circuits nor from electrocution unless a 2nd ground path is present. If a person were to hold a common wire and the hot in the other the GFI probably wouldn't trip.

Aggravation: The GFI on the outlet where we plug in our block heaters trips if my wife parks her car forward so that the bumper touches a snow covered log. It can take a half-hour before it trips. Fortunately we noticed that the yard light didn't come on the only really cold times it happened. The GFI on the tractor heaters also tripped once.

Anyway, I'll stick with the GFI's, but it would be real unpleasant to come out on a cold morning and find the block heaters hadn't been on.
....


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RCA_TX
Join Date: Oct 2003
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2003-10-27          67302


Well, this is my first post since I'm in a lurking and learning mode in anticipation of replacing a 20 year old garden tractor with a NH TC33 next spring. This thread got my attention though.

I agree with Mike. The advice that the contractor is providing is about as patently unsafe as anything I've ever heard. I can't believe he suggested that installation method if he understands the safety issues to a minimal degree. That makes me question his overall wisdom and expertise in every area. Good contractors do NOT knowingly accept undue safety risk (spelled lawsuit). I would be real suspicious of ANY work he does. I don't like to be critical, but he truly knows no fear, and it appears he simply doesn't know better.

If you use him, I would redesign the system so that you can switch to 12VDC power if you have to. Any cut in the insulation or leakage of any sort will likely allow enough leakage to trip your 120 VAC GFI when the soil is conductive. This would render the whole project a waste of time for the sake of a shallow trench.

I would consider increasing the wire size to handle larger currents and lower voltages in case 120 VAC power doesn't work out for you with the GFI option. Run wires to each light as independently as you can (many parallel loads starting at the power source) so each circuit from the power source can be a reasonably inexpensive guage. A single circuit with many 12VDC loads daisy-chained would likely draw too much current for inexpensive wire guages. It also helps in troubleshooting to have separate loads in case of a ground fault on one of them. I like to be able to isolate loads when troubleshooting from the beginning of the circuit (a dry and comfortable place preferably). Figure about 5 Amps per 60 watt lamp if you use 12 VDC. You will probably want to keep power loss in each run to about 5% or so. If you were going with 120 VAC in order to mimimize line losses for long runs, and are going to consider low voltage options, let us know. Mike or I can tell you what guage you need to consider if you can give us the length of each run and the expected load in watts for each circuit. It may be more trouble to configure your system like spokes from a hub, but there are benefits. You might even be able to use the same trench with multiple independent lines in the trench. Don't skimp on conduit size. It is inexpensive, and it is easier to pull through larger conduit, especially if you add circuits later.

If you have to stick with 120 VAC power, follow all local and national codes and take pictures of anything you cover up. If you ever sell your property, it will help to be able to show compliance with the depth and conduit codes by pictures. Inspections that reveal shoddy electrical work can ruin a transaction and result in having to re-do the work.

I would also use cable suitable for underground use even if you use conduit. Down here in Texas underground conduits can fill up with water from condensation as humid air migrates in and out the conduit. It isn't much more expensive. All I keep on hand is underground feed.

- Randy ....


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TomG
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2003-10-28          67318


Hey, a blast from the past! We haven't had a code discussion in quite awhile. It's true enough that contractors can do some pretty irresponsible work but what was described here ws mild compared to what I've seen home owners of friends do to themselves.

I guess it's hard to appreciate that codes are designed to produce wiring that has about the same life expectancy as the building. People can and do diddle the system to carry higher loads and seemingly without consequence except that wiring starts failing 20 years later and probably for a different owner. It's real good to stick with codes and inspections.

The comment about wire gauge is worth noting. Many people have the notion 'It's only 12 volts so wire isn't important.' The power dissipated by wire is determined by current flow rather than voltage. Low voltage systems draw more current for the same loads and take larger wire for the wires to run at the same temperature. Temperature is what kills wire and heavy wire for a 12V system is good.

Not quite a rant on my part and it was mostly to say welcome as an active member to the Board anyway. Hope you enjoy yourself next spring. ....


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Murf
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2003-10-28          67341


Two other points worth mentioning about buried cables.

Regardless of whether you dig a trench or use a trencher, take the time to spool off a ribbon of caution tape in the trench during the back-filling operation, this way if anyone is digging in that area in the future they will come across the warning tape long before (hopefully) they dig into the buried cable below it. Cheap insurance.

The other tip is to allways leave LOTS of slack in underground cables, even if they are in conduit. This way if a tree along side grows, or someone catches the cable on something there is some slack to take up before the cable is snapped. Likewise, always make a collar of some form if you are running cable through concrete, later it can move or be replaced if need be. BTW, the cheapest, easiest conduit to use is 'utility' (low pressure) grade poly water pipe.

Best of luck. ....


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Billy
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2003-10-28          67349


I'll add to Murf's suggestions. Lay some tracer wire along with the electrical wire. It could save a lot of time, if you need to find the underground wire later.

Billy ....


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TomG
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2003-10-29          67407


Yep, foam insulation above well feed save me a lot of time digging holes looking for it and probably saved me replacing the line as well. Warning tape is a real good idea.

Turning off all branch circuit breakers to out buildings when digging also is good. I hope the engineer in the old thread who said you can't electrocute yourself because current will flow to earth ground first is still around. Correct in theory I'd guess but risky in practice.

For obscure misfortunes, using putty around the wires coming into buildings through conduit (as per code) is good and also required. Gas line leaks or old septic systems in an area can put enough methane into a building through the conduit to cause it to go boom. Putty also blocks humid warm air inside from getting into the service line conduit and condensing inside the meter base. ....


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