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dieseltrctr
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 21 Kansas
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2005-08-23          115303


I have pulled a lot of trailers in my time. I will have nothing other than a gooseneck now. When you are pulling a near capacity load, a gooseneck is much more forgiving. Sure, ya' gotta put the plate in the truckbed, but it is well worth it. When you just consider the physics of a gooseneck vs a bumper pull, the GN wins hands down!



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shortmagnum
Join Date: Nov 2003
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2005-08-24          115337


Although I've never owned a gooseneck I have to agree. Because a receiver hitch is 5-6' behind the rear axle it causes the trailer to first move in the opposite direction before it can follow on any change of direction by the truck. It's a more unstable geometry and should be more susceptable to a whipsawing motion.
Dave ....


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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
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2005-08-24          115341


I have logged thousands of miles pulling small 5th wheel travel trailers on even smaller trucks.

You are right. There is no comparison. ....


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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2005-08-24          115343


Dave, I have to disagrre with the statement that 'bumper pull' (tag-along) trailers are "a more unstable geometry".

The reality of it is that a gooseneck or 5th wheel trailer has a longer distance from the center of the suspension to the center of the hitch, that's all, the rest of the 'geometry' is basically the same. This added length means that input from the towing vehicle changes the direction of the trailer proportionately less.

That however can also work against you.

If you were to for instance put 2 identical trucks side by side, each hitched to a similar trailer, an 18' flatbed, one a gooseneck, the other a tag-along, and you took them through a slalom type course, or tried to follow each other through relatively narrow city streets, you would find a BIG difference in the tracking.

The fact that the trucks hitch swings out slightly, and follows the rear end, the trucks pivot, by a few feet, means that in a given corner, the tag-along trailer will not track to the inside as much as a gooseneck will.

In our fleet we have both types, in various lengths. If for instance, I want to take one of my units to my cottage, I cannot take a gooseneck trailer, it won't go in our narrow winding road, a tag goes in just fine, it's a little close in places, but it goes. In the spots that are a tight fit, the gooseneck would have 2 wheels completely in the ditch. I know, I've tried it. The only way I can do it is with my big TLB behind, forks down, and pick the back of the trailer up and shift it over.

The difference between a tag-along and a gooseneck also diminshes as the size of the tow vehicle goes up. My pickup doesn't handle a 5 ton load on a gooseneck as well as my big truck handles 10 tons on a tag trailer.

Best of luck. ....


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shortmagnum
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2005-08-24          115349


Murf, here's my point. If you take the rear axle to hitch distance to the extreme, there is a point at which small direction changes to the truck will cause large initial direction changes to the trailer in the opposite direction before it finally follows the truck. This would create an unstable condition. So at normal axle to hitch distances there would still be this opposing motion but at reduced effect. Thus my statement of "more unstable."

As a practical matter it's not a problem or I would have ended up in the ditch many times. :)
Dave ....


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DRankin
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2005-08-24          115357


A properly set up 5th wheel/gooseneck hitch has the towing point just ahead of the rear axle.

I have always thought that it was this positioning that created the added stability. ....


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Murf
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2005-08-24          115359


Dave, I understand what you are saying, but I think you are missing a few critical details.

Using my truck as an example, becuase it's here and I know it well, I have about 38" from the centerline (C/L) of the rear axle to the C/L of the hitch, but the wheelbase is 172" so the hitch to axle length is about 1/5th (for arguements sake only) of the wheelbase, the length of the pivot. So to move the hitch 1", the front of the truck has to pivot 5" in the opposite direction.

If we take a forward speed of 50mph, if the front of my truck moved 1" suddenly, the hitch would move far less than 1/5" (becuase it's moving so it sort of slides over, it doesn't pivot like it was sitting on a turntable.

That movement gets even further diminished by the distance from the hitch of the trailer to the C/L of the trailers suspension, it's pivot point.

This doesn't make any unstability show up, the undulation caused by over-correction does that. A little touch of the trailer brakes soon ends that though.

I still agree that a 5th wheel is better overall, but it's also got it's drawbacks, some are big ones.

The hitch position ahead of the axle also helps by adding weight to the front axle instead of lightening it like a tag along does.

Best of luck.

....


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AnnBrush
Join Date: Mar 2004
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2005-08-25          115456


Here's another disadvantage. Generally speaking goosenecks are for BIGer stuff and need a bigger vehicle to tow them - read "costs more money", also at fuel approaching $3.00 a gal, I would rather have a tiny bumper hitch pulling a single axle toy from HD that cost $300. Oh and plus $85 for the bumper hitch, but then again I am a minimizer prefering to sock it away for retirement / college etc. ....


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dieseltrctr
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 21 Kansas
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2005-08-27          115519


These threads seem to go far from the original point quickly. Sure, if you are pulling a little or nothing load a "toy" trailer is fine. You do indeed need a sizeable truck to pull a sizeable load. I use mine in my business, and need to haul a lot of material at one time. How much rock, mulch, soil and sod do you think I can haul on a tiny trailer at a time. The lack of high fuel mileage is a part of heavy equipment hauling heavy loads. :-) ....


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bewing
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 35 kingston springs tennessee
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2006-04-14          127703


I need to install a gooseneck hitch in the bed of my truck. I looked at a B and W hitch but my truck has a 3" body lift and it will not work. Does anybody have any ideas? ....


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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2006-04-14          127704


bewing: 3" isn't much---have you looked at the ajustability aspect of the gooseneck itself (the hitch tube usually slides inside the main tube and is secured with (2) large setscrews. You might also consider the actual ball height too--maybe a shorter one. ....


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AV8R
Join Date: Oct 2003
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2006-04-14          127707


Having wrecked a truck (Chevy K5) with a 3" body lift, my advise would be:

"Loose the Body Lift."

Especially if you are going to haul with it. ....


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bewing
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2006-04-15          127710


The problem is it is not a suspension lift but body from the frame. I bought the truck this way and the original factory bolts are gone. I had someone look at it and they wanted upwards to $500 to remove the lift. I take it the body lift contributed to your accident. Were you pulling a trailer when it happened? ....


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earthwrks
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2006-04-15          127712


AV8R: What's the connection to the body lift and the accident?

bewing: I've done body and suspension lifts on my Jeeps and helped buddies with pickups do body lifts. $500, if that includes parts (new bolts, new OEM rubber spacers AKA hockey pucks, possibly the fan shroud which was likely chopped to accept the fan), that's a fair price, considering it's probably a 4-6 hour job if the linkages have to be put back to original. ....


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bewing
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2006-04-15          127713


Well I did not ever get a firm price. The guy kinda looked at it and I got the impression he didn't really want to lower it back down. He mentioned the lack of bolts and told me I should take my truck to a welding shop to have the gooseneck welded to my frame since he couldn't mount the b and w hitch. What started this is I found a good deal on a 18' gooseneck for $1200.00 with 3500lb axles. I have a 94 chevy 1500 Z71 4X4 350 gas burner that I would use to pull it. I thought the gooseneck weould be easier pulling than bumper a bumper hitch and would be a good idea. The lift is what has me stumped but I am leaning to use it over the bumper for better weight distribution. I need to pull my tractor B 7500, dixie chopper mower, and a bobcat. The bobcat would be pulled just local and not very often. Just trying to get the best and most economical. ....


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wingwiper
Join Date: Jun 2004
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2006-04-15          127719


Earthworks

Lifts raise the Center of Gravity of the vehicle doing the towing. A Gooseneck or a Fifth wheel carry about 20 - 30 percent of the total GTW (Gross trailer Weight) over the center of the axles of the truck. If the truck has been lifted and you add 3500 to 4000 pounds and even more to the top back of that truck. You are going to have unstability, big time and when you go around a corner and down hill it will be very dangerous.
Dualies are best designed for Goose necks and Fifth wheels, they have the EXTRA rubber on the road to support the added weight and to keep the truck in the direction of desired travel when cornering.
Lift kits and towing are a very bad mix.
It alsoshould be noted, that nobody I have eve known has gone to a set of CAT SCALES to see if they are properly loaded. Nope! they hook up their trailer and as long as that is with in the GTWR they feel fine, then they pack in the supplies, the wardrobes, the tools, the hay, the whatever and pile in the family. By te time they are done they are well over their Manufacturer GCVWR. Like te folks who put on a 2 -3 yard dump body on a 1 ton and then haul WET Soil. ....


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earthwrks
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2006-04-15          127727


wingwiper: A 3" lift in and of itself does not raise the center of gravity an appreciable amount because the frame with drivetrain has not moved, only the body has. You would have to perform a center of gravity test to do that. However, a lift with different/taller/wider tires, wider wheels and different offset might. Certain combinations aforementioned might even offer better stability if done properly. Even specialized shocks like the Rancho 9000 which are adjustable on the fly can be a benefit.
bewing: Using a 1/2 ton IMHO is where you are going astray. I wouldn't consider anything less than a 3/4 ton. I know guys who do that and they end up spending big money repairing rearends, u-joints, bearings, brakes, trannys, etc. Not to mention that the frames aren't up to the task. And never weld a hitch to the frame---that causes brittleness and that combined with a lower rated frame could be costly if not catastrophic if it breaks. I use an '03 Ram (4x4, quad cab, HO, auto, diesel) to pull my 15,000 bobcat-loaded-with-other-stuff trailer. I really should be using a 1 ton. The hitch is the weak point on my set up. ....


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wingwiper
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2006-04-15          127729


Earthworks

How do you plan on mounting the 5th wheel to the frame if you are 3 inches higher? that will put the load bearing 3 inches higher as well.
As far as you and youru 03 QC, 2500, Diesel, Auto is concerned, you are a quite bit over loaded.
The MAXIUM Trailer weight for any of the 03 2500 Rams, Quad Cabs, Auto, Diesel, Long bed or short bed, is 13,150 lbs, so if your Bobcat wieghs 15000 lbs and you have not added in the trailer or the cargo on the trailer, you are several thousands pounds over the Max Limit and hope you don't need any warranty work on the suspension, bearings etc. If you also have an accident and you are overloaded, you may find the Insurance Company will NOT cover your loss.
I would suggest you trade in for a 3500 and be SAFE. If you have a passenger and they get hurt while you are OVERLOADED, the responsibility will levied onto you alone. Inusrance companies are lookinghard for reasons not for them to have to pay or settle. Good luck.
My reference is page 44 & 45 of the 2003 Dodge Truck Job Rating Charts. Printed by Dodge. ....


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earthwrks
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2006-04-15          127730


bewing: 3500 lb. axles is not going to work for you regardless if it's a gooser or not. Your rated capacity is 7,000, subtract 2,000-2,500 for the trailer which is around 5,000 or less. What does your bobcat, bucket and tools weigh? Over 5,000 and you are overloaded. Find a decent 8-lug trailer which will give you about 10,000 lb. of weight capacity. I bought my 20' bed, drop-axle bobcat trailer three years ago for $3200. It is relativley light weight in that it is made of 6x6 angle and 8x2 channel. It doesn't twist and flex like other taller trailers which weigh more, and the deck height is very low (14") versus double that for a regular trailer. Even at 20' for the bed and another 4.5' feet for the tongue, I can manuever it through the tightest streets (like winding through the French Quarter in New Orleans as my buddies tried unsuccessfully to get me hung up on street corner bumper posts) ....


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AV8R
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2006-04-15          127731


The 3" body lift did not "cause" the accident, the dumb f** kid that turned left in front of me did.

The body lift caused the ENTIRE body to deperate from the drivetrain because of the leverage on the bodymounts that the spacers put on them. (it was assembled with grade 8 hardware and aluminum spacers)

I like a well engineered suspension lift and big tire conversion, but, I do not like body lifts (my opinion). The chassis to body twisting (especially off road) will cause fatigue cracking and a serious loss of integrity to the entire vehicle.

Now, add a heavy gooseneck trailer and you can geometrically increase these forces. You realise you'd have to "lift" your goose neck plate too, right? More spacers and flex. (not a good idea IMO.)

Just my opinion, take it for what it's worth. ....


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earthwrks
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2006-04-15          127736


wingwiper: my statements about welding etc. precluded not using any type of gooseneck hitch on the subject truck with the 3" lift. My bad. And I agree with you about me being overloaded. I'm out of the factory warranty, but the extended warranty is in effect (I purchased the snow plow package which covers me better from a warranty standpoint). And I bought it using a "business connection" club of sorts (I forget the name of it) through Dodge so they are aware that I don't use it lightly. ....


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bewing
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2006-04-16          127767


Thanks to all!! I will take this under consideration and make a decision. My problem is I am trying to start a part time business with my son on a budget. 80% of the time I will be hauling a B7500 1362 lbs. with FEL. Options include 60" finish mower, box, and or aerator box. Other times I have a 50" dixie chopper 1000 lbs mower. Those will be my normal items in transit. If I haul my bobcat 4750 lbs it will be by itself and only for short trips close to home. I guess there is no good answer outside of upgrading my truck and two separate trailers. One for the light loads and a heavy duty equipment trailer. I will let you know how it works out and again thanks for you help. If I do not use the gooseneck I will have qty 4 brand new
8-14.5-14 heavy duty {3100lbs rated) lowboy tires for sale asking price $275.00 for all 4. If you can use the tires let me know. ....


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wingwiper
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2006-04-17          127801


Earthworks

I wasn't trying to be a smartass, but if you are runningoverloaded, even a Service contract will NOT cover you when you have problems. You have a Business Link Account. Dodge will still keep the warranty if you hae the Sno-plow prep group and add a plow for work. They will not nor will anyone else warranty the vehicle if it is over loaded.
We had an instance here where a fellow bought a 3500 Dualie, put a refer box on the back and then filled it with frozen meat and started delivering, he went thru some bearings and other suspension breakage and Dodge went after him for misleading information for Warranty Service. Last Iknew he paod for all of his repairs and that insluded his first one. Once it was established he was overloaded with the truck, he became totally liable for any problems and Dodge was reimbursed for anything that they did under warranty related to suspension or drivetrain damage.
I job rate everyone leaving the dealership and I have them sign a piece of paper stating they understand the limitations. It keeps me out of the liable lawsuits.
I knew a guy who put a 10,000 pound piece of Marble in the back of a 2500 and drove 40 miles with it, to deliver. No Problems and that was 3 years ago. I told him when I found out that he was way above the payload capacity and that he was putting the truck in dire conditions. He laughed and promised he wouldn't do it again. If he has, he hasn't come to us for repairs. ....


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