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Jeff Jump
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2001-06-24          29583


When I attempt to use the lift valve and the curl valve on my loader at the same time, the loader drops like a rock and the bucket doesn't curl at all. I have a buddy with same set up I have & he doesn't have problem. I suspect the hydraulic lines are not connected right & I need to swap the lines on the curl circuit. Using the controls by themselves, I don't have any problem although the curl circuit is slow and erratic. Any thoughts from the experts????



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John Miller, III
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2001-06-24          29584


I'm certainly no expert, but it sounds like some hydraulic lines are improperly hooked up... A simple solution... compare your buddy's exact "working" setup and you match his... ....


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Jeff Jump
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2001-06-24          29585


Thanks. I'd like to do that, but my buddy does not live near me. Also I was hoping to get a little education on how the hydraulics work on my Yanmar too, i.e. what to be careful of. I would like to add a hydraulic top link but am not sure how to tap into the hydraulic circuit, and is there a separate circuit for the 3 pt hitch or is everything run with the one pump???.........JJ ....


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Paul Fox
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2001-06-25          29594


If the circuits work properly when used independently, the hoses are most likelyi hooked up properly. If the hoses were NOT connected properly, either the curl wouldn't work at all, or it would work backwards (I have that happen occasionally when re-attaching my hoses after using the curl outlets to run my back blade, and have to swap them) I'm no hydraulics expert, but I suspect the problem is more likely internal to the control valves, allowing oil from the lift circuit to bleed off somewhere. Has this always been a problem with the machine, or did it just start? Another possibility is that there isn't adequate oil flow to run both circuits at the same time. Have you checked the oil level? Does the severity of the problem change with engine RPM, ie, worse at lower RPMs? If it's less of a problem at higher RPM's, that would indicate an oil flow problem, probably due to either low oil, a leaky pump or a partially plugged filter. ....


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TomG
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2001-06-26          29627


I haven't got an off the top of my head explanation, but I'll go through a basic open centred hydraulic system, which might be some help. In an open centred system, the pump circulates oil continuously through the high-pressure line and back to the sump. Hydraulic control valves are hooked in series in the high-pressure line. The control valves are called open centred because the centres are literally open unless the valve is operated. Oil flows through open centred valves unimpeded and returns to the sump unless a valve is operated. Operating a valve closes a centre. At the same time, a line to one side of a hydraulic cylinder is opened to the high-pressure line, and the line to the other side of the cylinder is opened to the exhaust, or return line, to the sump. Closing the centre blocks oil flow, which allows the pump to develop high pressure in the line, which in turn causes the cylinder to move. An operated cylinder continues to move until the valve is released or system relief valve pressure is exceeded. Double acting cylinders, which are typical on modern loaders, have oil on both sides of the piston and can be powered in either direction, depending on which line receives pressure. However, the other line always much have a path to the sump, because oil on the passive side is displaced as the cylinder moves. So, making these connections is the job of the control valve. Pull an operating lever one way, the centre is blocked, one line to a cylinder is connected to pressure and the other to the sump. Push the operating lever the other way, the process is reversed, and the cylinder moves in the other direction. A loader spooling control valve assembly essentially is a set of two control valves in series in a common case--one valve for each set of loader cylinders. That's a basic loader setup, and operation is the same whether a joystick or an in-line set of valve handles operates the control valves. However, there are additional features, such as float and regenerative circuits, and there other fancy valves and hookups. SCV's also are available in conventional and power-beyond versions. There are a couple of things to note about open centred systems. The first is that valves are hooked in series and the outlet from one SCV can be connected to the inlet of another. In fact, it's common for the outlet of a loader SCV to be connected to the 3ph input. Also, since the valves are in series, only the first valve gets pressure when several are operated simultaneously, and only the first cylinder moves (some movement of a second cylinder will occur in conventional, as opposed to power-beyond, SCV's (A power-beyond SCV has three ports while a conventional valve has two). ....


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TomG
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2001-06-27          29636


The first thing I thought of when I read 'bucket flopping down' is that the bucket was being put into float. However, I don't think that floating the bucket should stop the curl from working. It doesn't on my loader, but my curl valve is before the lift valve, so the curl would have priority anyway. I don't know if my hydraulics basics from yesterday were necessary. But at least I can take off from there to describe connections. I'm assuming that it is an open centred system, there is a float function but no fast-dump function, and the loader is powered from an auxiliary hydraulic system which is fed from a manifold block and diverter valve. If so, you can trace connections by noting the port codes stamped on the loader valve assembly. If it's a 2-hose system, one port should be stamped 'IN' or 'P'. The other port is the output. If it's a 3-hose power beyond valve, there should be a port stamped 'IN' or 'P', another stamped 'PB' and a third that is sometimes stamped 'T'. I'll describe the power beyond connections. A line should go from T directly to the TX case. One line should go from IN (P) to the high-pressure port on the manifold block. Another line from PB back to the other manifold port. A diverter valve on the block should be in the auxiliary position. Markings on the manifold block ports are variable, but A manual can be checked to identify the ports and diverter valve position. Loaders have cylinder pairs for lift and for bucket curl. The cylinders in each pair are connected in parallel on the loader frame. Each control valve on the SCV has two hoses. Hoses from the same valve must run to opposite sides of one cylinder pair. It doesn't make any difference which way they're are connected. Reversing the connections just reverses the operation. Which pair of hoses goes to which cylinder pair also doesn't make any difference unless there is one valve has a float function, which is usually connected to the lift circuit, but either valve will drive either function. However, it does make a difference that the high-pressure hose goes to IN and the return hose goes to PB. Otherwise a lot of damage can happen. A valve with a float function will have a longer barrel sticking out back of the valve than other valve. I haven’t seen a control valve with a fast dump (regenerative) function, but they may have the same length barrel as valves with float. ....


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Jeff Jump
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2001-07-06          29862


Many thanks TomG and everyone else. I haven't had time to experiment but I've looked closely at the lines and valves. I assume I have an open centered system, and my hydraulic cylinders have only two hoses per. Looks like hydraulic oil comes into the valve manifold at the side. There are staggered ports in the center of the manifold, two per valve, and the return is on the opposite side of the valve manifold. I traced the lines to one of the loader cylinder's and one of the curl cylinder's, and they seem to be opposite of each other i.e. paralled port of lift to cylinder rod end of cylinder, and same port for curl valve goes to opposite end of cylinder from cylinder rod, if that makes sense. Simple matter to swap hoses and I will try that.
What doesn't make sense to me is that with hydraulic oil coming in on the side of the valve manifold, seems like the first valve would be a priority valve. On a centered system that was described, with the priority valve in operation, how would the secondary valve get any oil??? Seems like the priority valve would 'block' any pressure until the valve is released.
Also, doesn't seem reasonable that this is just a capacity problem, since the system IMMEDIATLY fails when I try to use both valve at the same time. Engine rpm's are a factor in how responsive my loader controls are but not a factor in the original problem definition.
Last thing is I don't believe I have a 'float' capability or position with my loader unless we're talking about lowering the bucket to the point where it just 'floats' on the ground, that I can do. Even at that I'm skeptical since I can lift the front of my tractor about 12 inches off the ground with the bucket. Anyway, just status for everyone who responded. I really appreciate your efforts and this board. What a great resource for a beginner like me!!!! JJ ....


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TomG
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2001-07-11          29979


I've been 'out-of touch' up at our camp since Friday. We spend a lot of time there during the summer, and maybe I develop new perspectives. One thing I noticed in this discussion is that I carried on at length without realizing that no mention of the kind of tractor was made. It does make a difference if it's an open or closed system. It also makes a difference whether the loader valve is power-beyond or not. In terms of tracing connections, a good way to sort this stuff out to think of the SCV assembly (everything that controls the loader) as a set of separate components. There is an inlet section at one end that will have one hose. There is an outlet section at the other end that will have two hoses if it's power-beyond and one hose otherwise. In between the inlet and outlet sections are control valve sections--two sections for a basic loader. Each control valve section has two hoses, and its two hoses go to opposite sides of the same cylinder(s). From the description, it sounds like there is only one hose on end of the SCV assembly, in which case it isn't a power-beyond valve. Most likely, the inlet and outlet hoses run to a manifold block/diverter valve. Markings on manifold blocks aren't always obvious, but with most hook-ups, the diverter valve should be in the auxiliary position and the high-pressure and return ports connected to the SCV inlet and outlet respectively. You can probably get the correct inlet and outlet hose connections from your friend whose unit is working. The hose connection should be correct with those inlet and outlet connections and as long as each pair of control valve hoses go to opposite sides of the same cylinder. It doesn't really make any difference which control valve hose goes to which side of a cylinder. If the hoses are reversed, it just reverses the direction the cylinder moves with respect to the valve handle or joystick. It makes sense to me to verify that the tractor has an open centred system, determine if it's a power-beyond valve and whether the loader SCV outlet feeds the 3ph and finally that the hose connections are OK and then go from there.. ....


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Mickey Grider
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2001-07-15          30093


I too have the same problem with the loader dropping when using both valves at the same time. I have just purchaced this tractor and felt the hydraulics were connected wrong. After much research, I don't believe that to be true. The loader lifts when the control is pulled back and lowers when pushed farward. The bucket curls back when pulled to the left and dumps when pushed to the right. Also, the dump feature is painfully slow; 6 to 7 seconds as compaired 3 to 4 seconds for the other features. The lower feature is fast, if the bucket is loaded, probably 1 to 2 seconds.

I have put over 40 hours on this tractor in the last few weeks building a retaining wall, moving a mixture of river washed sand, gravel and rocks. I have been living with the problem but the valve is getting worse. The loader lift capacity is dropping, the valve has started a small leak and will not lift if pulled all the way back, but will lift if pulled partially back. Because of the changes I will need to take it apart soon. I also supect the lift capacity of the 3-pt is less than is should be.

The valve is setup with the power beyond and float features. I do question the bypass being plumbed back into the return line and not the sump. The tractor is also equipped with 2 valves with ports on the rear. The tractor is a M-F 1145 with a 1246 loader. Every thing else appears to work well.

The loader valve is made by Dunkel Fluid Power in St Charles, IL (the first letter D is hard to read, it could be another letter) with the numbers 0521DH 1627GA on it. So far I have not been able to find this manufacture for a repair kit or repair information. I need the manufactures phone number or e-mail address.

I want to thank everyone on this site for all the great information. I have been reading the posts for the last 6 months. The CTB helped me to select a tractor and keep the cost down. ....


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Mickey Grider
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2001-07-15          30094


Sorry Mickey, My post listed your name instead of mine, Steve B. Anyone know why or what did I do wrong? ....


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TomG
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2001-07-16          30119


Steve B: Dennis probably can sort out your user name issue, but you might try changing your password. The easiest way to cure a bunch of small hydraulic problems is to change the oil and filter if there is any doubt about their condition. If you think the 3ph also is loosing capacity, then the problem is more likely to be the pump pressure and flow rather than the control valves. Pumps do have service lives and develop less pressure with use, but this is a pretty long-term effect. A pressure test would verify the pump pressure and system relief valve setting. It's possible for a faulty loader (or 3ph) valve to not completely close the open centre. Such a condition would result in low power and slow operations, but also would commonly be accompanied by leak down. A pressure gauge also can verify loader line pressures. It seems unlikely that both the loader and 3ph valves would start leaking at the same time. I'd bet on old or contaminated filter/oil, followed by a weak relief valve or a worn pump if there's quite a few hours on it. If there is enough pressure to do considerable lifting, you should be able to hear the relief valve if it's opening. ....


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JerryGoucher
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2001-07-16          30137


I have a MF 1246 loader. You need the out port plumbed to the return line(3 point) and the Bypass needs to go to the sump. The fitting for the sump is on the right side of the transmission and right below the differential lock peddle. I think that to say the least that you would have a pressure problem the way it is now. It might even keep the relief open. ....


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JerryGoucher
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2001-07-16          30138


I'm sorry, BUT I didn't notice that I typed the connections backward until I had already posted. It should read the "out to the sump, bypass to the return(3-point)" ....


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TomG
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2001-07-17          30158


I think that in many applications, 'bypass' is called 'power beyond' (PB) and 'out' is called 'tank'(T). Input is called 'pressure' (P or IN). The codes in ()'s often are stamped on SCV valve bodies. I think that if the PB and T connections are reversed, the loader would work but the 3ph wouldn't. The 3ph may lift a little, but only during times when the loader was also operated. ....


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Steve B
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2001-07-21          30271


I relooked at the loader plumbing. The bypass goes to the second set of valves on the inlet side. The return from the second valves then joins the return from the first valves (loader). I believe the flow from both go into the 3pt. The oil looks clean but I do not know when it was last changed but plan to change it in the near future. The 3pt just appears weak to me but not any less than when I first purchased it. It is rated to lift over 2800# and 1800# at 2ft past the ends (if I understand the spec correctly). The blade weighs 350 to 400# and is about 3 ft past the ends; when I'm pulling a large amount of material and raise the blade, it is slow to lift or if the load stops the tractor the 3pt will not lift unless I help by releasing some of the strain on the blade. In those situations, I may just be exceeding the 3pt capacity. I went to the dealer today with the loader valve. The service manager believes the lift and dump problem is from using both circuits at the same time. Also loader valves used on these tractors are not as complex as valves used on construction equipment. It doesn't have features to prevent flow that allows the bucket to drop when both spools are used at the same time. It does operate correctly when only one spool is used at a time. He also felt the problem of the loader not lifting when the control was fully pulled back is from the spool being pulled past the port. He felt that could be shimmed. I will disassemble it tomorrow and change the seals to correct the leak and look at its alignment. After he showed me sketches and explained the details in the control valve, I believe it should be easy enough to do. I will also connect a pressure gage to rule out the pump and relief pressure settings. I'll let you know how it turns out. Thanks for all the input. I also changed my password to correct the name problem. Steve B. ....


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TomG
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2001-07-21          30278


Steve: Sounds like you've got a pretty good service manager (mine will do similar things). Everything most likely will get straightened out between the two of you. It's a little hard to figure exactly what you have from these posts, but it sounds like there may be two hoses from the loader valve that are jointed together in a t-fitting. If so, it would be a good idea to make sure the service manager know which two ports on the loader SCV are jointed together. It's possible that somebody installed a power-beyond SCV by joining the PB and T lines together. If that’s what you’ve got, such a system should work, but there is a risk you should understand. ....


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Steve B
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2001-07-21          30279


Tom, The PB and T of the loader spool valve is joined indirectly; that is through the rear spool valves. The loader PB supplies the two rear spool valves and then the T from the rear spool valves join the T from the loader spools. That flow appears to go to the 3pt but because the line connects into the casing, I'm unable to trace it. What is the risk you mention? Thanks. ....


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TomG
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2001-07-22          30291


In open centred systems, operating a control valve closes the centre (or PB flow), which allows the pump to build pressure ahead of the closed centre. A double acting cylinder has oil on both sides of the piston. When one side receives pressure and moves, oil on the other side of the piston has to go somewhere. In a SCV without PB, the oil goes back into the line downstream from the closed centre and flows back to the sump. The line downstream from an operated valve sees low pressure. There is a potential problem when several SCV's, or an SCV and the 3ph, is plumbed series. When a valve on a downstream SCV is operated, the upstream SCV sees the pressure that is developed in the line by the downstream valve. If a valve in the upstream SCV is operated at the same time, then parts of the valve that are isolated from the high-pressure line when the valve is in neutral also see high pressure. These exhaust cores, as I've heard them called, are not necessarily designed to withstand high pressure and can rupture. PB solves that problem. A PB valve has a second return (the T port), which provides separate a path for cylinder return oil that goes directly to the sump. With a PB valve, the exhaust cores are isolated from the high-pressure, (PB) line and will not be exposed to high pressure. Your system probably is connected properly if the T-ports from several SCV's are jointed through a t-fitting and the common line runs directly to the sump. A line that connects to the side of the cases often is the T-line. Many cases have plugs that are intended to provide connections for return lines to the sump. However, the risk of a ruined valve is present if the t-fitting joins a T and a PB line. My system has a single SCV, and the PB line runs to a hydraulic manifold block mounted on the lower side of the engine where it feeds back into the high-pressure line going to the 3ph. That's a fairly easy way to distinguish between the PB and T lines. ....


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Steve B
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2001-07-22          30293


Thanks for the info. Later, I'll replumb, change oil, and check the pressures, but for now I need to continue building the retaining wall I started. Yesterday I rebuilt the loader valve. The detent section of the lift cylinders was partially unscrewed from the spool. I put in new o-rings and used a special o-ring lube on all the parts. Afterwards I resumed working the loader and it is working much better. It now lifts as it should. The bucket doesn't drop when joystick is put into the lift and dump position. It just dumps and doesn't lift. Again, the valve may be too simple or not enough hydraulic flow for that feature. I did notice while the valve was apart, a check valve in a port located in the center of the lift spool and provisions to place one on the curl and dump spool. I'm tempted to buy one to see if the lift and dump is possible. Another thing I noticed, is the fit and finish of the spools and ports. I bet they are matched sets. A true rebuild may require a new spool honed to the diameter of ports. It may not be possible to just buy a new spool and drop it in. I don't know this for sure, just a thought. ....


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TomG
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2001-07-23          30314


Sounds like a good piece of work with good results. Clearances of the lands would be crucial. I imagine a set must be lapped together at minimum, but I don't know if they must be manufactured in sets. A good hydraulics shop would know if separate valve component parts are available and how they would be installed. The check valve you describe may be part of a lift float circuit. Most loaders use a control valve with float on the lift but not the bucket circuit. At least that's something that could account for the difference between the two control valves. A good hydraulics shop should know if individual control valve components are available and what installation procedures are required. The land clearances are crucial, and specialists probably best perform such jobs. Regarding lift and dump: Only one hydraulic function at a time works on my system, and the upstream valve has priority. It is a basic PB valve with in-line control valve handles rather than a joystick. I think that's fairly common, given how open centre hydraulic systems work. I guess I can theorize how multiple functions could work in an open centred system, but I think it would take some specialized plumbing in the SCV. ....


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Ted Kennedy
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2001-07-23          30316


Mickey Grider, without a whole bunch of hot air here are the results of my research: Danfoss Fluid Power (yes they have a website) now manufactures the 1627FV single lever, two spool (one with float), loader valve. Early 1627 series valves had internal spool leakage problems too numerous to mention and frequently failed after only a few hundred hard hours. The replacement valve made by Danfoss is better. Aside from the check valves (two, one per spool), there is nothing to repair as the spools are not re-buildable. Look between your work ports, see what looks like a bolt hex head? Unscrew these two check valves and clean in fresh hydraulic fluid. Gently blow them dry and screw them back in. If the problem still continues scrap the valve and buy a new one. Because the problem is only on one circuit when the spool is activated the integral pressure relief valve is not at fault, although, if cleaning the check valve solves the problem you may benefit from re-adjusting the prv. ....


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TomG
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2001-07-24          30327


Ted: I don't think this is the real Mickey here. There seemed to be a glitch in the user/passcode file that applied Mickey's name to a new registration. But, your comment is good information for the old or the new Mickey, who actually is Steve I believe. Good info for me too. I might eventually get most of the gaps filled in and then have to speculate less. In absence of a teacher, speculation is a part of learning, which I guess could be called hot air, and I do own some. Reading a basic textbook could cool it out a bit. I found two texts in an on-line course syllabus; Engine & Tractor Power, Goering, 1993 and Farm Tractor & Machinery, Hunt, 1995. I wonder if anybody has heard of these texts? The course does contain hydraulics, but the tables of contents aren't available so I can't tell what the books cover. The Goering book is available through Amazon. From your comment, I gather that each control valve has a check valve and pressure relief valve. I don't know if all SCV's are built that way, and I wish I had an exploded diagram of mine. I may have to find a textbook or wait for it to break so I have to take it apart. ....


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