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Jeff O
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2002-11-25          45369


Got a questoion, We are moving into a house that frequently looses power during storms. It has a sump pump that needs to be on some type of back up power system. I would also like to power the pump to the cistern and some lights.
I don't have any clue what size or brand of generator to buy, or is there another solution. Thanks in advance




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Billy
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2002-11-25          45372


Jeff,
From what you've mentioned, I would suggest a 5,000 or 6,000 kW generator. This size generator will run everything you've mentioned and a lot more. It will handle lights, refrigerator, TV, coffee maker and more, all at the same time. The only thing you couldn't run would be electric heat. It will run an electric water heater but you'd have to turn most everything else off. If you don't mind cranking by hand, you can get one from Harbor Freight for less than 500 bucks (including shipping). The only thing you'd need to check is if your area requires a transfer switch. If not, you can get by just fine without one.

Billy
....


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Art White
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2002-11-25          45374


You could go for a 10000watt contained unit with the switch and not need to be there at all to deal with it or to enjoy it automatically going on and off with the power and not have to worry. ....


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Walt
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2002-11-25          45376


Jeff
Add up the wattage requirement of the appliances you would like to operate to get an idea of the size generator you will need. On your pumps look at the wattage rating plate on the motor. If it is listed as amps multiply the amp rating by voltage to convert to watts(ex. 8.3 amps x 120v= 996 watts). For lights a 100 watt fixture uses 100 watts. For all motor driven appliances you must multiply by a factor of 2 to allow for start-up current. For example a sump pump rated at 10 amps(1200 watts at 120v) would need a minimum of 2400 watts of current to start. Add everthing up and you would arive at a minimum (assuming all were on at once) wattage needed to get by.
As far as transfer switches go you may be able to get by without one but the guy working on the power line to restore your power may be killed or seriously injured by power backfeeding from your generator out to the service line from your home. You really should have a transfer switch installed. If not don't start up your generator without first pulling the power meter out of its socket. And don't put it back in untill you turn the generator off.

There is some really good information to be had at:
www.gen-tran.com

You can buy their equipment at Home Depot as well as generators.
Walt
....


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cutter
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2002-11-25          45377


If you have natural gas available, consider buying a unit that will run on that or convert a gasoline model, and then buy the cut-out switch. It is easy to forget to pull the main breaker and backfeed into the secondary electric and back through the transformer, possibly injuring or killing an unsuspecting lineman. The other method is simply to use extension cords to plug your pump and some lights into them. If that is good for your purpose, Honda makes some nice lightweight portable generators your wife could probably carry around if she had to, they are quiet and durable. ....


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Henry_W
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2002-11-25          45387


I just installed a Generac 8kw generator and it works
extremely well. It comes with a a transfer switch and
everything is pre-wired for home installation. It will run
on either natural gas or LP. It starts automatically on
power failure and excercises itself once a week.
It is very easy to install and comes with complete instructions.

It will run everything except the central A/C, hot water
heater and electric stove. They are caried by Lowe's and
Home Depot

Henry ....


Link:   Generac Standby generators

 

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2002-11-26          45394


As other mentioned, 5K - 6K will supply enough power for emergency backup and then some. I have a Honda 6500 myself.

However, in selecting a generator it might be a good idea to calculate loads. There would be the continuous load from lighting, running electric motors etc. I say running motors because motors create surges at startup. The generator should be capable of handling a continuous load plus the surges created by electric motors at startup.

A generator that would pop its mains if all motors started simultaneously might be thought of as undersized. Of course, the worst that would happen is that the generator would have to be reset. Granted the chances of all motors starting at the same time isn't huge but the possibility would be an issue if the generator starts automatically and reliable unattended operation is expected. I doubt that the automatic systems are capable of resetting themselves. A sense of a generator's capabilities in operation can be gained by referring to the difference between its peak and continuous power ratings and the duration peak loads can be sustained.

With my Honda, I don't worry about leaving the furnace, water pump and fridge on while running on generator but I do turn off the water heater. Those loads plus some lighting has never popped the mains but I can't be certain if all motors have ever started simultaneously. Some have been running while others were starting though. If we need to run the stove, I turn off one or more circuits they feed motors to make sure they don't come on while the stove is in use. The Honda will support the entire stove on high plus a few lights but it's probably into it's peak rating. It wouldn't be enough generator to cook and serve Thanksgiving dinner but it's plenty for emergency use.
....


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TomG
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2002-11-26          45395


Regarding transfer switches: I imagine that transfer switches are required most places, but an auxiliary geneator panel worked out better for me.


I replaced an existing 60-amp service and fused panel with a 200-amp service and breaker panel and generator backup.
Since I had to rewire the panel anyway, a 60-amp generator panel that runs as a branch circuit off the 200-amp main panel worked better for me than a standalone transfer switch.

A transfer switch has to be rated for the utility service. Two-hundred amp switches are expensive and excessively heavy-duty for transferring to a 20A - 30A generator. I simply wired the existing house to the 60A panel and used the main panel for new circuits to out-buildings etc. It was cheaper than a transfer switch and probably more convient to operate.
....


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Art White
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2002-11-26          45400


Here in our area we just had some homes with power failures for up to four days due to ice. I think that if someone lives in a rural area that they should have a means of stand by power. I also feel that electricity needs to be used as well as directed in a manor to be easily maintained for safety for all. We have had line men injured because of home brew wiring by home owners. I have worked with electricity and will again but I do it to meet codes in the area. I do recommend about a 9500watt generator and get the auto transfer switches needed to do it right so it leaves out the human element. I would not trust my wife or children to it and I do not believe my wife would pull a switch on a manual transfer switch with out a lot of reiforcment verbally while on the phone if I was not right there. When adding these systems if they are a good system they will add value to the property and like wise they can detract if it is just another cobble job. ....


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pmbdabavs
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2002-11-26          45402


If you feel brave enough or know an electrician who can do this for you (preferably), measure the true amperage draw at the main panel ,(DON'T OPEN THE MAIN ELECTRICAL PANEL IF YOU HAVE NEVER DONE THIS BEFORE.IT CAN BE VERY DANGEROUS TO SOMEONE WHO IS UNFAMILIAR WITH ELECTRICITY), for each breaker of the appliances you wish to operate on generator, typically this is done with a "hook on" amp meter(make sure the appliance is on when measuring!)This will give you a true amperage of what the appliance is drawing. After you add all your appliances together you will want to tack on about 25% for power factor and surge. More times than not people either extreemly oversize or undersize their generators. The want adds are full of year old generators that are either too big or too small for people's needs. My advise is to find an electrician friend to help you out or someone who is comfortable with opening up an electrical panel, it may save you $$$ in the long run and get you the right size generator the first time. Yeah , most peoples needs are around the 6,000-8,000 watt range, but guessing is not very cost effective. Hope this info helps.
Peter - NH ....


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Murf
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2002-11-26          45406


For many years our hunt camp was 'electrified' using standard automotive light bulbs and sockets, 1157's in fact, that way we had low and high light level options. The place was 'wired' with 10ga. primary wire and standard houshold switches and a couple of plugs for 'portable' lamps. We even had a water system, a 45 gal. drum in the attic was the storage/pressure supply system and it was kept filled by a 12v. transfer pump normally used for fuel, etc. The power supply was a pair of large 12v. deep cycle batteries. Charging was accomplished by means of a home-made 'generator', a high capacity (100 amp.) truck alternator, mounted with, and driven by an old lawn mower (8 hp.) motor. I can't ever remember running out of power from the batteries, and recharge was simple, put a half tank of gas in the engine start it and leave, by the time it ran out og gas and stopped running, the batteries were all topped up.

Best of luck. ....


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TomG
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2002-11-26          45413


I may not have been clear. My auxiliary generator panel has it's own built-in transfer switch. The difference between it and one on the service line is that the transfer switch is a modest 60A and 14 branch circuit slots fed by my 22.5 amp generator while a switch alone on the service line has to be rated for 200A.

Codes here require all transfer switches to have three point breakers so the neural and both hot lines are disconnected from the utility line when running on generator. Most service panel use two point main breakers, which is why they don't provide adequate disconnects from the utility lines for generator use. A miswired generator connection in combination with a faulty service ground can backfeed the utility neutral irrespective of whether the panel breakers of on or off.
....


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Billy
Join Date: Oct 1999
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2002-11-26          45414


Yes, a transfer switch is the best and safest way to go but it's not a have to case (unless there's a code). You have to use your head, just like owning and using a gun.

Here in the near future I'm going to install a 100 KW generator with automatic transfer switch for my poultry houses. When I do, I'm going to run a line to my house too (with it's own transfer switch). I'd hate to be sitting here without any juice and those birds laughing at me.

In my earlier post I wrote 5,000 or 6,000 KW. I meant to say watts. 5,000 or 6,000 KW would be over doing it just a bit :)

Billy ....


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TomG
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2002-11-27          45434


I know those camps Murf is talking about but I thought it was the hunters rather than the lights that come in high and low beam.

It may seem excessive, but I'd use at least 10-gauge wire as well for a 12V system. The rating of wiring is determined by the current through it rather than the voltage. Low voltage lighting draws a lot of current for the light it produces. A quick calculation is that 10-gauge line in residential use is rated for 30-amp and 6 55W 12V lights draws around 30A. However, SAE rather than residential standards may be more appropriate. Automotive wiring dissipates heat better since it's less insulated, and residential wiring is additionally de-rated by 25%. Anyway, low voltage systems can rack up the amps and take surprisingly large wiring.
....


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TomG
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2003-01-23          48000


Well, a 7+ hour power outage in -5F temps yesterday. The backup generator finally dealt with an emergency rather than just being a convenience.

I believe I'll pay closer attention to generator maintenance. I'm not sure that just adding gas additive to old fuel, running the generator every month for 4 years with the occasional actual use for a few hours and doing only basic maintenance quite does it.

The Honda 6500 starter and tinsey battery really didn't like the cold plus 10W-30 oil, and I don't suppose 10W-30 on the air filter helped either. Had to take a 1,700 btu propane burner into the small shed where generator is and warm it up. Pull starting when the 10W-30 is like molasses also is interesting. But it did get going even if it did then take about a half-hour for it to convince the automatic choke to give up.

The 6500 did get the house back up to temp and got us through dinner and evening stuff almost normally but with a lot of juggling of circuit breakers on my part to manage the load. Still, I can't help but think that the engine should start better at -5F.
....


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JAZAK
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2003-01-23          48020


you are right, my 10 hp briggs on my snow blower starts at -10 below outside! with 1-2 pulls .I use the new 0-30 mobil synthetic ,got tired of replacing broken pull ropes and it does not seem to use oil any more than before ....


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TomG
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2003-01-24          48068


I think the oil is part of it and the old gas and not enough exercise is the rest of it. Don't know but I got to reading users manuals and thinking--dangerous mixture for me. I was running 5W-30 in the generator and 0W-30 in the tractor year around. This fall I ended up changing to 10W-30 for the generator and 5W-30 for the tractor.

In the generator's case, I started wondering if the air-cooled engine may never get hot enough to thicken multi-grade oils with fairly light loads on very cold days. Actually the choke never did open up until I gave up and applied a load to get it hotter. I don't know if that could happen but I guess I read the manual again which specs 10W-30 and nothing else and so I start thinking and wondering. Maybe somebody knows.

In the tractor's case, it didn't have any problems starting in temps down to -20F in past winters. It does take awhile for the oil pressure light go off though. I figured that maybe slightly thicker oil would provide better initial lubrication or get the pressure up faster. Who knows maybe my reasoning is backwards.
....


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Mrwurm
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2003-04-09          52830


I know this thread is a bit aged, but I thought this was a good place to jump in. Tom, thanks for the info about using a three point switch as opposed to just shutting off the main breaker. I knew using the main breaker was unsafe but I did'nt know why.

Question:
My neighbor has a 10,000 watt generator (Generac) and he has two 240V outlets on his. One says 240V XXAmps, and the other says 240V 'Full Power'. What could possibly be the difference?

My generator (5,500 watts Generac Wheelhouse) only has one 240V outlet. Is mine a 'Full Power' outlet?

Jerry ....


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Murf
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2003-04-09          52838


Because of health concerns this past winter we had some modifications done around the house. One of the chronic problems that finally got fixed was the problem of starting a frozen generator in less than ideal times and temperatures.

The fix turned out to be surpisingly easy and cheap!! The electrician found that there was more than enough room in the conduit that runs from the shed where the generator lives (the pool equipment building actually) to the house. They fished some new wires through and put a new, full-size battery (like you would put in a P/U) in the basement next to the panel, for extra measure the battery is hooked to a timed 1 amp. trickle charge to keep it full & happy. The whole setup worked very well when tested in temperatures of -25C. (-12F. to the rest of the world).

I assume it would be just as effective to strap a reguler battery to a hand-truck and keep it handy in the garage or similar, then just wheel it out to the gen-set when you wanted to start it.

Best of luck. ....


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cutter
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2003-04-09          52863


Made good use of my generator this past week. We were out for several days due to the ice storm here. I moved my electric service to a pole half way down my driveway and had a weatherproof switch box installed. The changeover to gen power is easy from there, I simply throw the 2oo amp switch in that box and plug the generator into my 220v outlet in the garage. It is enough to run the freezer, refrigerator, lights and selectively run the electric H2O. ....


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TomG
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2003-04-10          52899


Murf: I was thinking along those lines because I went to exercise the generator several days ago and the battery was dead. Well, maybe a four year old box store battery might be shot but I think it probably froze in the -30F weather we had after this thread started. Warm batteries are good. I'd have to dig up my underground feed to do what you did though, but I guess I could use utility AC that's already in the shed to keep it warm and reason that the battery wouldn't get real cold before I noticed that I have to start the generator.

Jerry: You use the regular 220V outlet for equipment designed that current. The equipment likely would be already wired with a plug for the smaller 220V circuit. Using the full-power output would be like sticking a larger fuse in a circuit to keep the fuse from blowing. Somebody running a power saw from the full-power output might burn up the motor if they lugged it because the larger circuit breaker wouldn't pop.

Every combination of current and voltage has its own unique sets of plugs and receptacles designed to prevent people from using equipment and extension cords that are intended for applications either greater or lesser than the circuit's breaker protection. Sure is a pain to end up with a piece of rental equipment and then find that it can't be plugged into anything available.

When my generator travels I have an old 100A panel and a flock of receptacles mounted on a piece of plywood and fed from 100' of flex 100A line. I used to use it in the sound/lightning buz when we had to get more AC to a stage. I rewired the board so I now have a receptacle for virtually every plug I'm likely to encounter. I used to drag the board inside the house and run extension cords everywhere before I installed the transfer panel. I figured that was better than back-feeding a stove or dryer receptacle--a common but taboo practice.
....


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Murf
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2003-04-10          52913


Tom, if you have heavy enough lines from the gen. set to the transfer switch in the house it may be possible to back feed the load lines with 12v. using special solenoids (which cannot transfer if there is 220v. in the mains) to start the genny then they transfer the lines back to 220v. service.

This was the first suggestion of my electrician, but since I had so much space in the conduit I opted for new cabling, especially since it wasn't a long run and I had a couple coils of welding cable I bought at a garage sale for $20 that were the right length. I had thought about rigging some sort of heat, etc., for the battery in the shed, but by putting it in the house I figure it will be more likely (since it's easier) that I will check the water in the cells, etc.

Best of luck. ....


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AC5ZO
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2003-04-10          52928


Running low voltage 24VAC or 12VDC through the same conduits as 120/240 VAC is frowned upon by many building codes. You are supposed to run the low voltage power and control wiring through a separate conduit. If you live far enough out, building codes may not apply, but it is worth mentioning.

Any wire in a conduit has to have good enough insulation to insulate it against other wires carrying different voltage. But, you do need to be careful. This argument extends to low voltage telephone and computer lines, coax cable used for TV or radio communications, and other such "non-power" wiring runs.

I fully understand the problem of keeping the batteries warm. I keep a bank of batteries for my ham radio. I put them in old ice chests. The plastic case and good insulation works well as a battery box. I have one big Igloo cooler that will hold 4 deep cycle 6 VDC batteries like are used on golf carts. I leave the water drain open on the cooler to allow some venting. In my climate, heat from charging the battery will keep it above freezing, but in worse climates a thermostatic heat tape or small light bulb would keep the temperature high enough.

None of these "heaters" need to draw over about 20W. The heater might also be a small 12VDC lightbulb inside the cooler that is run by the batteries. My battery bank would keep a 5W bulb running continuously for about 1000 hours and would normally be run by a charger. You could even add a themostatic switch to only turn on the light bulb if the temperature got below 40F or so. ....


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Murf
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2003-04-10          52930


A friend made his own battery 'warmer' keep batteries, removed from vehicles for the winter, from freezing in his unheated (unless he's working) shop.

He made a shallow plywood box slightly larger than the 'footprint' of six batteries, the number he needs to over-winter. He then lined the bottom and (short) sides with 2" styrofoam SM (blue foam sheet) and made little wire 'stands' to hold a peice of heater cable (looks like extension cord, meant to be wrappped around a pipe to keep it from freezing) an inch up off the foam, then poured in 2" of concrete (sand mix, no stone) and trowelled to a real smooth finish inside. The cable is made of special thermo-reactive material, as the temperature drops, its resistance changes, elictricity starts to flow creating resistive heat, as the temp rises, the process reverses and the heat gradually fades to nothing. He claims the total cost was about $20, mostly for the cable, but not including scraps of material already on-hand.

What he ended up with is basically, a well insulated, thermostatically controlled, electrically heated patio slab sitting on the floor. The concrete makes a very effective heat-sink, regulating temperature fluctuations. Most importantly, it can NEVER overheat the batteries and warms them slowly from the bottom, and only makes heat as the temperature dictates, in fact he leaves it plugged in year-round.

Maybe this is something you could for your generator battery Tom.

Best of luck. ....


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AC5ZO
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2003-04-10          52931


The reason that I went with coolers is because they are acid proof, will catch any spills that might occur when checking electrolyte or adding water, and they insulate against both heat and cold for the batteries. The coolers that I use generally have been discarded for a cracked exterior, broken hinge, leaking lid or other minor problem that make their use for cold beer less than ideal.

The heat tape that you describe sounds like the same thing that I use on plumbing and it is what I was mentioning in my previous post also. These tapes tend to only produce a few watts of heat. Higher power tapes might overheat if not in contact with a water pipe or the concrete that you described. I have one mounted on my water lines that has an electronic thermostat built into the cord that comes on at 39 degrees. It makes 18w of heat. I do not know if it will stand up to a sharp bend if you wrapped it directly around a battery. Anyway, the concrete slap idea certainly has merit. ....


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cutter
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2003-04-10          52946


The old cooler idea sounds like it would be safe and efficient. I have electric dehumidifiers in my gun safes, they are about 3/4" in diameter and a foot long. They are extremely low wattage and generate enough heat to move the air inside the safe. They are warm to the touch, last indefinitely, and are not likely to break or cause a fire as a bulb can. One of these units inside the cooler battery box would be a simple solution, and they come with a bracket that can be mounted almost anywhere. ....


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TomG
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2003-04-11          52956


It'd be good if the cooler tops didn't seal very well. Hydrogen from the battery would go to the top and a water drain at the bottom likely wouldn't dissipate the hydrogen.

When I was a kid, we used to punch a small nail hole in the bottom of tin cans, put a little Draino in a pop bottle with water and hold the open end of the can over the bottle top. Hydrogen would displace the air and fill the can. Then, the can could be set on something (usually Popsickle sticks) and a match held to the nail-hole. A small flame would stay over the hole. As the hydrogen burnt, air comes in from the bottom of the can. The ratio of hydrogen to oxygen decreases as oxygen comes into the can. Sometimes but not always the ratio becomes critical and a small explosion pops the can off the ground.

There may be a chance that an old cooler and battery could be a slightly larger version of my former entertainment. Kids like that sort of stuff but there's no recommendation here to try or teach it.

Codes always should be considered and work inspected. There's a good chance that around here low-voltage wiring could run through under-ground conduit along with AC line but all line should be direct burial type. When conduit is used for branch circuits with DB line it's not actually considered a formal electrical raceway anything can be used. I've used 3" rigid drain and even 4" flex drain in inspected work. However, anything that attaches to and enters a structure is a raceway and would be treated differently under code. Even if it's permitted under code, whether it's a good idea or not is another question.
....


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Murf
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2003-04-11          52968


That's funny Tom, we used to do something along the same line, albeit on a larger scale, as a kid.

Our version involved a propane tank a gopher hole, a spark plug soldered to a LONG length of wire, an old car coil & a 6v. battery. I'll just leave it at that for now......

I personally don't like the idea of a battery on charge or even mechanically warmed in a confined space, but that's just personal taste I suppose.


Best of luck. ....


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DRankin
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2003-04-11          52977


Tom. I envision you as the kind of kid who had a shirt pocket full of pens and pencils and a set of glasses patched with duct tape.

That kid next to you wearing his big brothers pants, dads old belt, a holey T shirt and one toe sticking out of the canvas sneakers would have been me. ....


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AC5ZO
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 928 Rio Rancho, NM 87144
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2003-04-11          52986


I have never had a problem with hydrogen buildup, but I tend to use old coolers that do not make a perfect seal. Some of the coolers have cracks or holes that caused them to be retired from beverage service in the first place. Hydrogen is a pretty small molecule and will leak through most rubber hoses like helium on a TIG welder, so I doubt that it will stay confined easily, but the points made are good.

I think that I might consider drilling a hole in the top of the cooler lid and installing a couple of L pipe fittings to make a splashproof vent. That combined with the open drain vent should ever keep a problem from happening. My battery boxes are outside. Being outside, the boxes keep the batteries from getting too cold during the mild (20F)winters or too hot in the desert sun.

I use the rod type heaters in my gun safes also. I think that they may put out too much power for a well insulated environment. I have never tested them, but I believe that they do not have thermostats, but I could be wrong. Where I live, the humidity doesn't often get much above 25%, so gun rust is a minor problem.

Earlier in the thread, someone was talking about air cooled motors not heating up. When I was growing up on the farm, I used to ride a dirt bike for checking cattle and so forth even during the winter. Snow kicked up from the front wheel would cool the cylinder and the two stroke would not run well. When the temperature was very cold, I would wrap the fins loosely with aluminum foil to limit the air flow and cooling from snow. This worked well. You have to experiment to find out how much air to restrict. I also notice that diesel tractor trailer rigs use a cover over their radiators in the winter. I suspect that it helps to maintain a proper engine temperature. ....


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