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Best way to wire rewire my barn

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Gary in Indiana
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2002-01-20          34795


I'm proud to be the first post on this forum. ;o)

I'm going to try to explain this as best I can here. I bought some land with a barn on it that used to get it's electric from a run from the nearby farmhouse I didn't buy. I'm have my own drop brought in and new 200 amp service where the old box was (in the NE corner). Unfortunately, for my purposes this is the back corner of this 70W x 80D barn and, of course, I want to put a shop in the SW corner. Because of all the existing wiring for lights, etc., I'm committed to leaving keeping the main box in the NE corner. My question is whether I'm better off just running Romex lines the 130-160' to the new shop area or if I'd be better off making one run that length to a secondary box and running my Romex for the new shop lights, etc., from there? If I do go with the second option, what do I use for that run from box to box? Any other ideas or suggestions are more than welcome. Thanks in advance for any help you can provide.




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Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2002-01-20          34797


You beat me to it Gary.
I hope I understand this correctly.
The question you need to ask is where will be the greatest load. You would like to have the compressor, welder and other large load items as close to the main box as possible. Remember that the you will get voltage drop and resistance load from the line.
Lights do not require much of a load.
Here the power company will install the line to the meter therefore the it is their wire.
If you have a large load in the shop area then you will need a large copper wire 3-4 or 3-2 from the old box to the new one (assuming 100 amp). I do not have a guide handy. You might need to take a loan out to pay for the wire.
The alumium wire is inexpensive as are boxes and meterbases.
My recommendation is to if possible run the new service to the shop and then run a smaller wire back into the old box. If the old box is only running lights then you need only run 3-6 or less for ~ 35-45 amp service. You can run the service to the old box off the other box on a breaker. ....


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Gary in Indiana
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2002-01-20          34801


I'm stuck with the new 200 amp box in the NE corner. Anywhere else causes me to put in at least one and probably two more poles in an area I'd like to leave open as a site for another building or to go underground, which around here can only be done by the utility company and, hence, is hugely expensive. Have I saved with the utility company just to spend with the wire supplier? ....


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Peters
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2002-01-20          34804


You need to determine the potential load on the shop box. I had to rewire my barn and used a 100 amp service from the house UG to the barn. I suspect unless you have a lot of equipment running constantly you should be able to get by with 100 amp. My service runs at least 160'from the house, the voltage is fine.
I think you should be able to fine a small box and then run one 100 amp circuit to the old box and one to the new one. Leave space and the small box and then if you need more power in the shop you could run a third line and put in a third panel.
You do not want to run around the whole barn each time you pop a fuse or need to turn off a circuit in your shop. You do not want to run all your equipment off 160' of Romex, you need more amp potential when you start motors or you run the risk of damage. ....


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TomG
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2002-01-21          34809



One of the alternatives seems to be running a 100A branch circuit from a 200A service panel to a sub-panel in the shop area. I believe that codes in most areas allow max 125A branch circuits, so a branch circuit would work unless the shop has large requirements. However, codes probably require over-sized line for a 130' branch circuit run. A branch circuit to a sub-panel is a commonly used alternative, because it is much cheaper than running separate circuits over considerable distance. Most any standard service combination panel will work as a sub-panel provided a bonding screw between the common and ground buses is removed. What ever is used, it has to have it’s own disconnect, which is provided by the mains in a combination panel. Prices of new panel/breaker packages are often much less than equipment needed to do specialized hookups. I’ve got several 200A service panels that have mostly blank breaker slots just because standard residential equipment is much cheaper than alternatives. Supplemental grounding may be required if the barn houses livestock.

I did all the work for new services at our camp and house as well. In each case, I found the utility’s site facility planning people and the inspector very helpful. My first step was to contact the utility to get a site plan done—the alternatives suggested saved my many thousands. Then, permits were taken out for the service upgrade, renovation and new wiring. Once a permit issued, you can talk to the inspector, who often will say what they will approve prior to an inspection. That can save a bunch in equipment bought that wouldn’t pass inspection. You should be aware that any modification can require all affected equipment to be brought up to current codes, which can be very expensive. However, inspectors generally accept existing wiring unless definite safety hazards exist.

....


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B.wood
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2002-01-24          34891


gary, make sure you have space in your new 200A panel for a 2pole 100A breaker.run 2/0 typ.ser.alum.across to best point of exit.set j-box either inside or out (use rated box)then run underground w/typ urd 2/0 alum. wire to new 100A panel either in pvc or direct burial.(rated for both)I believe you will need to drive rod-rods at barn be sure to follow local codes and rated fittings check out a copy of the NEC at a local bookstore .woody ....


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b.wood
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2002-01-24          34893


gary,ido not know your load in the shop but 100A should sufice ,measure the distance from panel to panel if under 300ft you should be ok as far as voltage drop if in doubt run next size larger cable .again check out a NEC book ....


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TomG
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2002-01-25          34909


It's good to check out codes before buying materials. For example, I'm virtually certain that around here any underground line has to be direct burial rated, whether it's in conduit or not. The reason is that a 1' frost loop has to be left at each end of an underground run. For the loops to work, conduits are left open at each end underground, so loops can go 1' below the trench floors.

The main reason for running underground branch circuits in conduit is so the line can be replaced without digging an entire trench up. In addition, although conduit doesn't technically qualify as line protection, many inspectors are less particular about trenches when conduit is used. Service line must be in DB rated conduit, but conduit for branch circuits is optional. Here, most anything can be used for branch circuit conduit. I’ve had runs using 3” drain and even 4” flex drain approved. However, anything that is inside of a structure has to run through raceways of approved material.

Anyway, codes in other areas may be different. However, it's good to check them out. For example, if I bought overhead line and wanted to go underground, I'd be out of luck. Suppliers don't usually take back line that's been cut.
....


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Mike A
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2002-02-01          35169


I am an electrical contractor and above messages all have a little truth but none are correct.If you can find a good contractor to give you advice thats what you need, a little money spent getting correct way to install your sub-panel will save you truoble ahead. ....


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Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2002-02-01          35186


Mike;
Yes and no. I checked around and tried to find a good contractor, I had him wire my barn and then rough the house. Then I had to rewire the barn and restring the house after dry wall was completed. Neither are what I would term correct, it is difficult to correct someones mistakes. In this area the inspection is less than complete.
Although I know some about electrical. I assumed I did not have to go behind him and trace all the circuits.
I bought the house off someone that owned an electrical contracting company. The house burned due to an electrical fire.
The old barn is a rats nest of wire. Another task on my list of tasks.
An electrical contractor does not necessarily mean it will be done correct. Believe me. ....


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TomG
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2002-02-02          35201


Another 'yes and no.'

The yes is that if I didn't have substantial past electronic and residential wiring experience, contracting the work might be a good idea. It takes quite a bit of study to have much of a chance of getting work passed. I’ve done the work as a homeowner more than once, and all my work gets inspected.

My point is that what is correct is not absolute and objective, it’s what an inspector will pass. Codes vary a bit in N.A., but codes also are interpreted by inspectors who often have choices of which codes to apply or to allow variances. Electrical and building inspectors are the closest thing to absolute monarchs left in the west. A good relationship with the inspector is everything. What I've found is that inspectors like homeowners--provided a homeowner's work is basically sound. You don't want to waste an inspector's time with poor work or dump questions. An aggravated inspector can make life unbearable.

My contractor story happened to a neighbour when I was still in the city. A new owner converted the house to rental and wanted to upgrade the service to 200A and divide some branch circuits. The guy took an astoundingly low bid and had the work done. Somebody came out and did the branch circuit work, and replaced a 100A panel (wired behind an old separate main breaker) with a 200A combination panel) and called it a 200A service. A week or so later an inspector wasn't at all happy. The job wasn't as bad as it sounds because the old breaker with its cartridge fuses was still there. However, the inspector said 'no way 40 breaker slots on 100A service line will fly.' The guy was lucky the inspector didn't shut the house down. The panel couldn’t simply be torn out and replaced with the 100A panel because the branch circuit work used more breaker slots. Instead, the guy to'd 'n froed' with the contractor trying to get a deal on the real 200A service. I don't know exactly how it turned out, but I'm certain he spent some money unexpectedly. I wouldn’t have had the problem, because I would have call the inspector beforehand and told him what I wanted to do, and he would have said ‘NO!’
....


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Peters
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2002-02-02          35207


What I am trying to point out is that Gary is doing the right thing trying to understand the job before he needs to have it completed.
I have always done this with the small amount of auto mechnics work I pay for. People have tried to flim flam me about 40% of the time.
Electrical contractor are no different. If there is a good insector and codes are tight then there is little that they can get away with. If not or he is over worked the look out.
As a home owner we do not normally know the inspector or his reputation.
Believe me my new house was not wired correctly, nor was the barn, nor was the old house nor is the old barn. None of these are even close. As these were all different electrical contractors in the area. What do you conclude?
I say you need to have a working knowledge of what needs to be done and then call the contractor and watch him. Bravo Gary. ....


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TomG
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2002-02-03          35233


Yep, pretty much my point too. Everybody can make mistakes through ignorance or just cutting corners. Homeowners doing wiring, contractors and even inspectors and ‘wiring made simple’ books make mistakes. Inspectors are the good guys in my experience, and I'd include most contractors along with the good guys too. If I had to make some bad guys, I'd say it's the homeowners and friends who do their own wiring without permits or inspections. There's some incredibly bad stuff around here, and I'd guess Peter's barn etc. probably was done by amateurs.

The main thing about contractors and codes is that contractors are going to make more money working to code than by cutting corners, because more materials and labour is needed. There's really not a motivation (other than just plain fraud, which I don't think is all that common) for a contractor to do sub-standard work.

Even so, it's good for homeowners to know a bit about the work. Some of the 'wiring made simple' book are pretty good. What works for me is to take out permits, and then plan using one of the 'simple' books. The permit means I can call the inspector for clarification (just not too many questions or dumb how to's). I figure the inspectors have saved me money by pointing out that some things in the books are based on outdated or excessive code interpretations.

What is important to realize is that ultimately homeowners have responsibility for condition of their property and liability for damages resulting for sub-standard or poorly maintained equipment. Contractors and the inspection agency share in that liability, but ultimately owners or their insurance pay first. Owners who were aware, or should have been aware, of hazards on their property can find themselves in uncomfortable chats with their insurance companies. Actually, I view inspections as cheap insurance. There’s every reason to take out permits and get work inspected whether a homeowner or a contractor does the work.

....


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Gary in Indiana
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2002-02-03          35255


For what it's worth, I've personally always been a fan of the various building trade inspectors. I've done a fair amount of work in the various trades myself over the years on my homes and rental properties I've had.

I even recall an inspector examining a new meter box installation and pointing out one small piece of wire that was the wrong gauge. He asked if I had the right wire there and, when I told him I didn't even have a screwdriver with me this inspector went to his trunk, got a screwdriver and small piece of the right wire and put it in for me except for the last quarter turn. He handed me the screwdriver and told me to to that because he wasn't "allowed to do this." He saved me another trip there and a $25 (back then) 're-inspection fee.'

For my money, those guys are a tremendous asset. Personally, I like the idea of having my work checked out by a professional before I close it up. ....


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