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Misenplace
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 875 Michigan
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2003-08-15          61924

Wow, I'm back after a 24 hour heat induced black out hiatis. We are VERY lucky to be back on line as there are millions here with out power. I do have a decent generator system but it was a fuel pig. People for the most part were calm for our area. I had to drive this morning to buy fuel to another area that still had power. The gas lines were miles long. People are driveing hours to buy generator fuel. The stores were mobed on water and batteries immediately yesterday due to the quick news reports and mass speculation of terrorism. There are so many cars abandoned on the road that ran out of fuel it is tough in areas to navigate around them. No traffic lights. My next door neighbors were all nearly killed 10 minutes after the power went out due to someone running a blacked out light at 80 mph. We had to stay up all night and watch for generator theifs. Its not supriseing how fast a laser light bounceing down the driveway will deter someone who wanted to take a 4am look see. I hope all is well for our other members potentially in the black out area. I think Murf, Art White, Cutter and many others might be with out power. I neeed to sell this generator and but a diesel powered one. You could drive right up to the diesel pumps and I was VERY thankfull to have a diesel powered truck. Dave

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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
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2003-08-15          61925

Glad everything is OK there. Why not get an LP generator and a 500-1000 gallon tank? The fuel won't go bad and there is no running out for more, just call your supplier and they come out and fill it. Diesel is great but you have to store a lot of fuel for long outages and we all know the fuel goes bad after a time, so it's a use it or lose it situtation. ....

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Misenplace
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2003-08-15          61926

Gas goes bad as well. It is just a matter of keeping and rotateing a inventory. My truck and the tractor burn diesel any how. My neighborhood association would not tolerate a tank, honestly I would not want to see one in my yard. Deer camp yes, home no. Remember I live in suburbia not on several acres where I can place it strategicly or landscape around it. I wish I could though as I would go that route if it were reasonably feasable. ....

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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2003-08-15          61928

Not gasoline, Liquid Propane gas like you put in the BBQ. LP gas lasts a very long time, but not sure exactly how long. I thought it would last many years.

Ah, suburbia. You could always call the art department at a local college and have some students come out and paint the tank. If they tell you to remove it tell them they can't trample on your freedom of expression!

I detest homeowners associations. There's always at least one person involved who has nothing better to do than to make it a pain to live within the rules.
....

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F350Lawman
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2003-08-15          61929

"My neighborhood association would not tolerate a tank, honestly I would not want to see one in my yard."

The run on natural gas as well (generate alittle less KW though). DO you have natural gas?

My friend and I went shopping today and he returned that Wacker 9.7kw gasser he bought yesterday for $2795 and got the Generac Guardian propane/natural gas 12kw model for $2650 in exchange. A much better deal with its on housing, auto on and off and it's own panel. ....

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Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2003-08-15          61930

Natural Gas? ....

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Misenplace
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2003-08-15          61931

Ken, yes I understand, LPG + not for me ! lol. Just due to my home location. F-350, yeah you sure got that right friend. That is why I am going to start looking at the diesel generators though. We plan to move a little north to a sub of 2-10 acre lots verses the 90 x 130 lots here. So I want something portable. The Generac models you mentioned are very nice and cost effective. yes I have nat gas. or gas...naturally ! ....

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kwschumm
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2003-08-15          61933

Yeah, Natural Gas is probably the best of all worlds even though it does have fewer BTUs by volume. I always forget about NG because we don't have it and probably never will.

I'm curious, though, with a widespread outage would natural gas service be interrupted too? I'm thinking they might have electric shutoffs located along the pipeline as some sort of safety mechanism, and pumping has to happen somewhere doesn't it?
....

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Misenplace
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2003-08-15          61934

Nat gas goes down regularly here. Would not be my first choice. LPG was available and all the vendors were open with little to no buisiness, but then no one was in line at the diesel pumps either. The best thing is to be prepared one way or the other. Its really bizare to see a million people caught flat footed and totally unprepared. ....

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kwschumm
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2003-08-15          61935

Yeah, the only way to fix the grid is to get rid of it. Every home should be self-sufficient. Fuel cells for everyone! ....

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kwschumm
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2003-08-15          61936

OK, so the blackout is serious. There are safety and economic ramifications galore and I don't want to minimize the impact, but...

I'm somewhat amused by the whole thing. Some parts of the country and many parts of the world have outages all the time. All the sudden a blackout gets wall-to-wall media coverage 24/7. It seemed to me everyone (especially the media) should have swallowed a chill pill and taken a long weekend. ....

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Misenplace
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2003-08-15          61937

I think maybe your overlooking the small fact that it is the single largest power outage in us history. I could do with out the 24/7 nonsense, but then my tv has this nifty little button ! ....

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kwschumm
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2003-08-15          61938

Please don't misread this, it's mostly tongue in cheek, but the only reason it's a story is because people are used to the power being reliable. Maybe they need to have more blackouts to get people used to the idea that it can happen.

(I'll duck and run now....)
....

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Misenplace
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2003-08-15          61939

I dont know about more black outs. Theres been a Lot of people killed and injured. But I do agree with your point. I doubt we could do much for those who were unprepared as it is their mentality at fault not the system (electrical). I was in line to buy gas at 6 am this morning and thinking to myself about all the conversations we have had on the forum in regards to generators, alarm systems etc. Even talking about it made us more prepared than many of theese people. So many people dont think that the stuff the rest of the world endures can happen to them, Stand at ground zero some day. It will change your perspective. You being those who are un prepared, obviously they were never Boy Scouts. ....

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F350Lawman
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 411 Goshen, NY
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2003-08-15          61940

I think the LP make the most sense for persons who live in areas like mine. 90% of my neighbors cook with propane and have a 100 gallon tank on the side of the house. My automatic delivery usually keeps it around 70% full. With even 50 gallons I could run the generator for 30+ hours at full power. There are several propane delivery outfits in the town who are glad to deliver and take my $$$. In a pinch if yuo run out most of us have 10 gallons right next to our BBQ and HomeDepot and Walmart have a zillion 5 gallon tanks.

Best thing is the units come with the hookup for the side of your house and a really nice panel to put next to your box inside. With the portables they want about $500 on top of the $2795 for these acesories. The other feature I like is that it turns itself on and off. If your away who's going to start your generator, hook it up and feed it fuel every 5 hours or so? I also can't see my wife lugging a 250lb generator outside and getting it hooked up without difficulty.

HomeDepot actually had the 12k Generac Guardian LP standby unit on sale at $2698 but we went with the local guy who stayed OPEN and helped us yesterday when all the big guys abandoned ship. Today some of the guys at HD were grumbling and not happy that their management closed. Granted the outage was short but nobody new how long it would last and the original news sounded bad. Home Depot is the one place that SHOULD be open in these situations. Walmart, BJ's, HD all were ZERO help. Shoprite stayed open to there credit with limited power from a generator.
I don't care if the others had only limited backup power you have 20+ workers there so you let people in say 15 at a time and escort them through the store so they can get necessary items. When you sell out of ice, water, batteries, flashlights, generators, power inverters, candles, kerosene lights, etc. THEN YOU CLOSE. I have seen it done before in similar situations and it worked fine, you just allow small numbers of people in so you can control the situation.
Heck, the local guy had no power to process the sale he just took down the credit card info. and gave my buddy a 3000 generator! He couldn't even look up the price so he said it's somewhere between 2500-2900 and charged him the average. The next day he adjusted it to the correct price.
He was willing to take it back toda with no problem even if we didn't order the LP model. Of course we did. He doesn't even sell Generac Guardians but he went online, found the model we wanted, called a distributor and ordered it for us.

Darn HomeDepot had generators galore :( and didn't sell any or help anyone. ....

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Misenplace
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2003-08-15          61941

If I lived 10 miles north of here that IS the system I would have. They are very nice and the Generacs are a GREAT bargain compared to other "name" brands. In my opinion Home DePut ranks (literally) right down there with Wally World...The Pits ! ....

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F350Lawman
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2003-08-15          61942

Everytime I go into HomeDepot I feel like Michael Douglas in Falling Down. I just want to go NUTS!

Is this wrong, do I have issues or is this just the normal reaction to a level of incompetence that is only rivaled by the Federal government? :) ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2003-08-16          61958

The power never went down here. Just a few drops and brown-outs when it happened. There's not many people or money around here so I figure there's not enough power used on out leg of the grid to be worth grabbing for somewhere.

Self-sufficiency to me is a small idea. It's being fed, warm and dry according to my wife and she considers our Honda 6500 generator a luxury. Well, it's only needed because we turfed the wood stove after the chimney became unsafe. Like most people around here we could heat wood and go to bed when it gets dark if there are no lights. Any level of self-sufficiency above that probably exceeds the value of what we can produce on our own as individuals and as such it's a trap.

Self-sufficiency then is just another dependency and goal to be chased and never attained. There'll always be another problem and another crisis and then more 'self-sufficiency' stuff is needed. Self-sufficiency to me is consuming no more than I can directly produce. Anything else is luxury that I don't need, and there always are neighbours to get ya over the hard spots (neighbours are a luxury that comes with the territory around here). Anyway, it's an idea that should greatly simplify generator buying. Most anything works and it's really no problem if it doesn't. Keeps me out of the box stores and that definitely makes me happier.

Well, this site makes me happy, or at least doesn't make me feel worse, most times if for no other reason then it keeps me from the morning news, which I can't get anyway. We never bothered with SAT TV so I sat here instead of there.

....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2003-08-16          61960

I think the reaction to box stores, TV etc. is entirely natural and the explanation isn't incompetence. I think it's just the carnival and big buz, big gov or big whatever finally found each other. Most everything seems to have turned into a carnival nowadays. Lots of noise, flashing lights, confusion, and it really doesn't work unless there's also bunch of people milling around.

While at a carnival once I asked myself, has anybody ever really wanted a cupie doll? Then why do people spend time and money trying to get one, or pay to play games that can't actually be won? It might be good to get yourself in a real fun frame of mind sometime in a manner of your choice and take a look at people on a mid-way before your fun wears off. To me they appeared like people in trances wondering around with cupie dolls. They sure didn't look like people having fun even if the sounds and sights of fun were all around. Well, hey, how else are you going to move junk that nobody really wants? The trick is how to get people there, how to keep them there long enough for the magic to work and best of all figuring out how to get people to blame something else for their failed good time. That's the second chapter of Pavlov and it works on people too.

People have the same look on casinos and to a lesser extent when watching TV etc. We've allowed ourselves to be turned into receivers of messages and the senders mostly have their own rather than our interests in mind. They really are very good at what they do and big organizations have huge resources to do it. I believe that a lot of confusion is far from accidental. I've learned to trust my sense of a good time. If I'm not having one I believe I'm about to carry off a cupie doll and then I would make somebody else happy instead. It's sort of like tractor safety, if it doesn't feel right then it probably isn't. It helps a lot to become your own censor (nobody else can be) and recognize that most stuff in messages received is to get you to pay for somebody else's good time. I'd rather have the good time myself.
....

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harvey
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 1550 Moravia, NY
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2003-08-16          61962

We did not loose power here either. Me still thinks the 65 black out was worse and covered almost as much ground 100%. Had to milk 40+ cows by hand that night and next am plus feed. No body had generators on the farm then. They where still family size.

Self suficiency would only last till the meat runs out. Treaspassers would be fair game.

I'll take my little diesel tractor and my 175 gallon heating oil tank anyday. The hours on the tractor be damed. Agood solid ice storm can shut down the north country for a week or more. I'd make it thru that ok. Anything longer and there are gonna be a lot of hurting people that have not and are gonna want something. ....

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DRankin
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2003-08-16          61963

Doc, check my pic's (#12)for Deere's answer to your emergency power needs. ....

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F350Lawman
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2003-08-16          61964

What does Deere get for that PTO generator? looks like a nice unit any idea on sizes offered?

My only NEED for some sort of power is to run the well. Six horse go through alot of Perrier water in aday :)

Actually I have solved the horse water problem as I mentioned before. I have a power inverter and can run a pump from the reservoir to a 55 gallon drum in the bed of my truck. Also have 18,000 gallons in the pool that is treated with Bacquacil(doesn't leave chlorine residue) thta could be used to wash clothes, items etc in a pinch.

Otherwise I can stay cool in the pool and have enough food for several days. No real concern in the event of a real bad emergency and looting here.... the Misses is a right good shot, pretty ornery too .:) ....

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DRankin
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2003-08-16          61966

They only have one model to the best of my knowledge.

The one pictured is designed for the X400/500 tractors with 24 horse gas engines. I don't see any reason why it won't work on a BX, 2210 or a 41xx.

I would have to do some digging on the price, but I think the list is $1600, and I think it is a 10KW output.

All of my water is 275 feet underground. Bad news in a power outage. ....

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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2003-08-16          61967

I was looking at PTO generator specs. yesterday at the Stateline Power web site and I noticed that the PTO generators they were selling required a PTO rpm of 515 rpm. Am I reading/understanding this correctly? If so what is a good rule of thumb or method to determine 515 rpm on the PTO? 2600 gives me 540 so using ration and portion calculations I come up with 2479.63 rpm. Round up to 2480 rpm. If indeed this is the case, why not just gear the generator to run a the standard 540 rpm. I put the link to the generator below so you can see what I am talking about. ....


Link:   Link to PTO Generator

 
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Misenplace
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2003-08-16          61971

Mark H, do you have one of those ? I dont know squat about them. My generac only has about 25 hours on it and I paid around $1300 for it. After this fiasco I am dead sold that Gas is NOT the fuel method to rely on in a panic. Too much demand. It is absolutely wild to see traffic backed up for miles to the gas pumps and 1 truck at the diesel. ....

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DRankin
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2003-08-16          61978

No. I don't have one. It is on my wish list.

I am debating on whether to buy a PTO generator that will run my well pump or to get a water storage tank to tap for emergencies and a smaller generator to keep the refer and the woodstove fan running.

Like Ken, we get multiple power outages every year. ....

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Misenplace
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2003-08-16          61980

Where did you get the photo ? I can't find any details or specs on the Jd web site. ....

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DRankin
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2003-08-16          61982

Under Deere.com click on Garden tractors........then X series......and accessorize...... and you should find it there. Click on the little diamonds after "10K PTO Generator" ....

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F350Lawman
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2003-08-16          61984

I really like the price and power of the PTO generators, BUT I don't fancy the idea of using the tractor for 72+ hours at high idles speed if we have an extended outage. That's alot of wear on my baby :) Not to mention tying up the tractor when I might need it to clear snow, downed trees etc. Also is my wife going to want to be out in the pouring ran and lightning, detaching my brushog and attaching the PTO generator, hooking up the wires and fueling my tractor every 5 hours if I am not home?

What if we are both not home, the sump pump and fridge will be out for as long as we are away.

I like the standby systems that run on LP or Gas. $2600 for 12 kw all complete, turn itself on and off. For those without gas I am sure diesel units are available but may be more $$$. Might even be able to retrofit the system to run on gas, it looks to be a standard Generac unit with a diff. carb setup.

P.S. When I went with my buddy to exchange his portable for the LP standby unit, they loked it up online and we discussed the generators at length. I ended up encouraging the owner and manager to order units for their own houses. My friend went to buy a torque wrench today and the owners wife said she can't wait to get hers and they are putting the GENERAC Standby units on their next sales flyer so they san sell more units. They didn't know anything of the units until I went in yesterday...should I get commission ;) ....


Link:   GENERAC

 
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TomG
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2003-08-17          61997

Chief: The gear drive does seem an odd choice. Who knows, maybe they started with the gear box case and then couldn't find a gear set with the exact ratio needed that would find in the case. I noticed that the unit does have a freq. meter so you could tell if the rpm is off. The main issue is where the engine is on it's power curve at 515 pto rpm.

Some people who use pto generators that lack freq. meters set the tractor rpm by comparing times from AC and battery clocks that have sweep second hands. The freq. doesn't have to be right on but a little high is better than low. Low freq. increases start up surges for AC motors. They'll burn out from very low frequencies but the generator main breakers might pop first unless its a very small fractional motor. For that reason having a generator that's large enough for a load to lug the engine isn't a good idea.

All this backup generator discussion hasn't contained comments about the generator hookup to house wiring. There's a bunch of discussion in the archives and a convenient code approved hookup can be a considerable expense. Before I installed my transfer panel I used a 100A combination panel and a bunch of receptacles on a piece of plywood.

The panel has 100' of 100A flex line and I used it in my sound buz days. I replaced most of the 20A 220V twist lock receptacles used for lights with standard 110V receptacles, wired in a stove receptacle and a few common ones found on construction sites. The panel is still useful for sites where there is no AC. Dragging the panel into the house and running extension cords where needed worked fine. People who intend to do something like backfeed a stove receptacle should understand the issues very well.
....

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Misenplace
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2003-08-17          62000

It seems that deere has resolvd that problem Tom with the meter. It will vary a lot regionally with the cost of electricians but labor was $500 to install a proper generac 6 panel switch at the breaker box and then make a major run all the way across the house so I could have my plug in location inside my Garage. Parts and switch were another $500. This allows me to set mt generator just out side my garage door when I run it. So I did consider that costly but worth the expense. The JD Generator uses different plugs. I am currently useing a 20' 30 amp cord into a 120/240 volt recepticle. I think the JD is 20 amp. As far as Ideling the tractor for extended periods I personally do not run my gereator 24/7 when the power is out. Maybe 12 on 2-4 hours off. I would certainly do the same with the tractor. My use will be less than 100 hours a year on my tractor so if we can for conversation sake if we use the plug number of 4k hours to rebuild that seems get tossed around here I have roughly 40 years of use in theory. lol, I know its comeing now ! lol. So I dont see that in my case the generator will be much of a burden. The tractor is also a heck of a lot quiter than the Generac. I would think this is all relative to how often your power goes out and your "needs". The big power outage here would have been small potatoes if it wouldn't have been 90 degrees out. The biggest problem was people not power. That is my catalyst for switching to Diesel power. Mark H, Thanx for the tip on the generator and the site. It never would have occured to me to click the diamonds. I have contacted my dealer for a price. ....

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DRankin
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2003-08-17          62002

Here is a little preview of what you are likely to hear back from Deere through your dealer:

"The unit is designed for the X series only and not recommended for any other tractor."

Their reasoning is that the base of the unit is designed with the correct height to sit flat on the ground (the recommended running position) and have a level, horizontal drive line relationship with the rear PTO.

That may not be an issue for you as your tractor has much the same stance and wheel size as the X series. Besides, it would be real easy to add some height to the base to compensate for taller tractors.

Near as I can tell the X series uses the same PTO shaft dimensions and has a Cat 1 hitch. There maybe a difference in the lower arm length between models so I probably would not buy the drive shaft they offer.

It would be easier and probably cheaper to wait until you get the unit and measure the distance and cut a drive shaft to a perfect fit. All it takes is a tape measure and a hacksaw. I have a printed procedure for doing that in my BX manual I would be happy to share.
....

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F350Lawman
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2003-08-17          62003

I would probably just use another shaft from another implement and leave it alone. I could always just bolt the PTO generator down on a wooden pallet and drive the tracor up to it and connect the longer PTO shaft of my rotary mower for instance. I'd add a few weights on the corners of the pallet so it doesn't walk I suppose.

I see they sell units mounted in such a manner only with a more permanent base.

NorthernTools.com has a $999 PTO unit thta makes 12KW. It doesn't include the shaft or mounts but most of us already have a PTO shaft we could use and one could buy or make the mount easy enough.

$999 for 12KW is pretty darn cheap and plenty of power for MOST homes to run everything. ....

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Misenplace
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2003-08-17          62005

I am a little confused about the shaf measurements. I know The PTO shaft is not the same as the 2210 as I waited for weeks to get a new shaft shipped from Japan when Mine broke. They actually had one in stock for the X series which they had initially thought was the same. Both the X and the 2000 series are limited catagory 1 which as far as I can tell is only relative to lift weight and height. The shafts I have gotten with other stuff I had left the full length and cut myself so I know I got the proper fit due to the iMatch which sets everything a little further back. It will be interesting to see any how. My current genset is 5500 7500 surge. At the time (2000) Generac was the only one rateing their sets which such liberal margins. They now Have changed my model from the 5500XL to the 7500XL and the new 5500 is pretty small. Anyhow I can power about 1/2 my house. No dryer, No Ac. I run The Kitchen, Master Bath, Master Bedroom, Liveing room, Sump Pump and furnace. Initially I thought most power outages would be in ice storms. The opposite has turned out to be the case. I Think The JD one is 10k but that is already more than enough for me. I just dont want to get stuck in those gas lines in a pinch again. It does little good if I cant get fuel. ....

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Misenplace
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2003-08-17          62006

I was looking at the Voltmaster brand PTO generators. What I am missing is that none of the gensets I am seeing except the JD seem to have any hitch points. I see some have a small trailer option sort of like you might expect to see with a wood splitter. Do theese operate with the shaft at a angle ? I'm a little puzzled but thats nothing new. ....

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DRankin
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2003-08-17          62008

The Northern Tool generator is listed as needing 24 PTO horses for full output. That's good for a 790 but not so good for the 2210/BX/41xx crowd.

Doc, you are right. If you price out the NT unit (assuming you had the HP to run it) and added a trailer and other missing elements, plus shipping, it pencils out more than the Deere unit.

What I was saying about PTO shafts is that I think the X unit uses a common shaft in terms of splines and diameter. But you would know best as you have actually seen one. ....

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Misenplace
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2003-08-17          62022

I think you are right, but certainly not positive that they are a standard shaft in that regards. I am not sure if the differences were interior where the bearings are due to the X series PTO essentially being a bolt on option. The JD genset has 3 pth couplings to lift it, move it etc. I understand what you are saying about leveling and the shaft on the deere unit. I am puzzled about the others. If the NT model or any of that type are on a trailer and you back up to it with a telescopeing shaft how do you get the height correct to run a level shaft ??? Also the NT model says 24 pto hp for maximum out put. I dont need that much out put so my thought process, although often flawed is that 17 pto HP would produce the 7500 Kw I need, although at a higher price. I like the JD unit just trying to understand the mechanics of the other systems. ....

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F350Lawman
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2003-08-17          62034

I read that within reason, using a tractor with lower PTO HP is not a problem with the PTO generators, it will just make less power. Now I am not suggesting a 100KW /200 PTO HP generator would make 12KW with my 24 PTO HP tractor cause I probably couldn't spin it. I would however, think that your 17hp PTO tractor could work a 24 pto HP generator with a little less output. ....

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TomG
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2003-08-18          62041

That's an idea that may work reasonably well for fairly fixed loads such as lighting that aren't subject to appreciable surges after startup. Surges stress the pto drive and large surges would shorten the drive life and particularly the clutch.

I suppose it's obvious but the tractor and generator have to carry whatever load is placed on them. A large generator on a small tractor doesn't just produce less output unless there's load limiting circuitry, which isn't found in ordinary equipment. A situation where the generator is capable of sustaining loads in excess of the tractor's HP can create problems. Even for lessor loads, it isn't a good idea to run an engine against its governor for extended periods.

An example of a problem from high surge loads is that it can lug an engine. When rpm falls off, AC frequency decreases. Current through motors and transformers increase, which further increase the loads. The engine will kill, or motors just won't come up to speed and will overheat if branch circuit breakers don't pop. I suppose it'd be possible for a small fractional motor to burn up without popping any breaker. Anyway, an oversized generator a bad idea unless there's certainty that only surges within the tractor's capacity are possible, and even then it's still hard on pto drives.
....

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Murf
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2003-08-18          62064

I'm back, lights and A/C on, in fact I never lost them, the new backup system worked flawlessly, when the grid went down the automatic transfer switch rolled everything required onto the gen-set, lots of capacity, I even watched the satelite TV, although my ISP was down until Saturday am.

I however was required (actually I bribed my cousin to phone the Head of Domestic Affairs and fake it) at the farm since none of the employees that live off-site could get in, there was a travel ban imposed even if you had gas.

Here is a couple of observations from the black-out area experience;

1) there is NO LPG available during a black-out, if you don't have enough on-site when the lights go out, tough.

2) the use of Natural Gas was strictly curtailed, in most areas it was switched off completely for safety reasons.

3) there was NO black-out induced crime (in Toronto & area), the closest thing to a 'prowler' we had was the wife said the dogs went crazy about 11pm Thursday, when she flipped the yard lights on see what the problem was there were 3 coyotes standing there bewildered.

4) line-ups for gasoline (and to a lesser extent for food) were long, about 2 hours in most cases, as Doc mentioned, diesel was usually readily available. Oil dealers were delivering diesel, colored and 'normal', to regular customers and keeping up with demand easily (they even called to see if we wanted a top-up on the gen-set).


All in all the only serious repercussions may show up in the maternity ward sarting around the middle of May 2004, LOL.

Best of luck. ....

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F350Lawman
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2003-08-18          62068

"1) there is NO LPG available during a black-out, if you don't have enough on-site when the lights go out, tough."

Huh?
You could get propane here at the propane dealer of your choice. They are all over the place in suburban/rural areas. Home Depot,Lowes,Walmart,Bj's,gas stations and local hardware stores have as many propane tanks as you needed.I could have bought or exchanged a hundred if I wanted. Sure they will only last 5 hours but we're talking last resort if you ran out and the suppliers (for some reason?) were unavailable. Also my 100 gallon tank (used for cooking) is filled on a schedule so it NEVER gets down below about 70 gallons, that means I am good for about 3 days of continued running without a refill. Not to mention thatjust about every one of my neighbors has 50- 100 gallon tanks of propane for cooking and if I am the only one with power for days on ened I am sure their tanks will be offered up real quick :)

"there was a travel ban imposed even if you had gas."

Was not a problem in this country. I have never seen a travel restriciton other than the fact that you can't go TO the site of the "disaster". Even on 9/11 travel wasn't restricted in the manner you are describing.

....

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Misenplace
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2003-08-18          62071

most of the stores you mentioned were closed here during the outage. In fact they all were includeing the gas stations. You had to drive N and fight hours of traffic to get fuel. Most of the stations here just outside suburbia do not sell the mini tanks you are reffering to. I did however see a couple of LPG places that appeared to be open but I doubt they were filling w/out power and for safety reasons. Buisinesses that were in the outage area were asked not to open by our wise and all knowing governess. ....

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Murf
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2003-08-18          62076

F350, the 'propane is not available' comment is because, with the exception of pre-filled cyclinders which were sold out in the first 5 minutes, the only LPG available was at refill stations that are powered by ELECTRIC pumps, no electricity no pumps, this was the case in Toronto, the gas stations which had gas and propane were unable to pump it. If you have a yard tank that is another case, few people relatively speaking, have bulk LP tanks, most are on natural gas where it is available because of the cost savings.

The travel ban was imposed for two reasons, neither of which had diddly to do with security, first, there was a shortage of gas, because of the above situation, but most importantly because without electricity there are no traffic lights, can you say 'traffic jams'? They were also concerned that if they din't keep people off the streets the hospitals could become overwhelmed quickly.

My neighbour, who NORMALLY has a 1 hour commute from a downtown office left for home at 4:30 on Thursday and got home at 8:30pm.

Best of luck. ....

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F350Lawman
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2003-08-18          62097

I can only go by my location as we all do, our service stations were not pumping due to lack of power they would gladly sell you a 5 gallon tank of propane or a pack of gum for that matter. Here even many supermarkets have the tanks for sale. There was no run on them because not many people have propane generators, everybody goes for the cheap $500 HomeDepot generator and the farmers have tractor driven PTO gens. Because MOST people have propane stoves their was no run on small propane tanks for cooking on the BBQ. In your area as there would be in any area with mostly natural gas or electric stoves,I would guess everyone neede tanks for the BBQ.

As far as Canada, you must be used to it, a travel restriciton here would spark paranoia and they'd be forming militias by day 2 :)

Bottom line is that we need to choose the power source that makes most sense in our areas, for some it's gas, others choose diesel and still others choose propane.

Maybe the ultimate solution is to have a second propane tank left just for the propane generator then I will have 100 hours of steady running before I need to go and use my 50 hour supply that is in the "cooking" tank. Now I am good for almost 7 solid days before I need to scrounge 5 gallon tanks. I could always alternate tanks every year just to keep it fresh. Now I think that we all can agree, only the most "doom and gloom" would approve of that level of preparation.

Hey, I just saw an add for a wind powered generator, you guys have wind in your locale?? :) Canadian government didn't halt the wind did they? ....

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DRankin
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2003-08-18          62100

If it is anything like our gummint, they probably create a lot of wind. ....

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Murf
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2003-08-18          62109

F350, your right on the money about the locale being the key to it all.

We don't have stores with much in the way of pre-filled propane tanks in stock around here, our Fire Code, and some Occupational Health & Safety Reg.'s limit the amount of LPG (or other flammables) that can be stored in one place without an inordinate amount of safety equipment (blast shields, etc.) in case of fire, etc.

As for the travel bans thing, as Doc has mentioned a few times, the distance between USA & Canada is only a few hundred feet in places, but a world away in attitude, crime statistics, etc. Case in point, the Greater Toronto Area has a population of over 5 million people, there was not even one case of looting reported and grocery stores and bakeries gave away free food rather than have it spoil.

Wind restrictions, hardly, we're gearing up for a soon to be announced provincial election, there's all the 'wind' you could possibly ever want....ROFLMAO.

Seriously though, there is a big interest in wind genrators around my place, we are on top of a glacial ridge 'above' Toronto so we are seldom without at least a breeze. They are also starting to build micro hydro-electric plants on many of the historic mills and dams in southern Ontario because of significant tax reductions on revenue made from electrical generation.

Besdies it's easy to alieve fears of 'big brother' by saying "everybody stay home & have a 3 day weekend".

Best of luck. ....

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Misenplace
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2003-08-18          62111

Now Murf I gotta say with 50 states plus me I think we got you guys with just a few provential terratories beat all to heaven on the gas bag count ! lol. Speaking of wind driven electricity Mackinaw city Has incorporated two wind mills on the Bluff over the sraights of Mackinaw. The next time your out running that overpowered dingy murf you just come around the bend for cocktail hour ! Nice Marina in Mackinaw city or on the Island. I'll buy. ....

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StephenR
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2003-08-18          62114

What's that about your neighbor almost getting killed by "someone running a blacked out light at 80mph?" ....

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Misenplace
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2003-08-18          62118

My neighbors recently started driveing a truck. They had asked me about them for the last several years and I guess they finally decided to take the plunge. Right after the lights went out many of the intersections were either dark or gave false signals from some temporary power source for several minutes. Many people through out the Detroit area were killed in auto accidents over the outage which is a topic the news seems to have avoided searching for the sole looter to boost the media hype. Any how they were brodsided in the front quarter panel. Dad has a broken arm in two places, daughter has a broken collar bone, mom has several broken ribs. We were trying to talk over the genset which is not exactly quiet. Sounds like they were all out for a few minutes and dont remember anything. They said the witnesses estimated the other drivers speed at 80 mph and I think he was DOA. I think they are sold on trucks as he said several times if they had been in the car they would all be dead. When the power is out every intersectionis to be treated as a four stop. Most people understand this but I personally saw several drivers blow right through intersections, The trouble was not electricity it was the me first mentality. Again. ....

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Murf
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2003-08-19          62183

I just got a call from our farm, they in turn had just got a call from the local office of the provincial electrical service, commencing about 5pm Toronto time they will commence a series of rolling, RANDOM blackouts. They will likely affect ALL of southern Ontario. Each INTENTIONAL blackout will last approx. 2 hours.

The point of their call was to ask us to be prepared to switch to our own backup generators, and to switch back into the grid slowly when the grid does come back up in our area so as to not overload the grid on start-up.

Ahhh, modern technology, ain't it grand.

Somewhere Mr. Edison is rolling in his grave....laughing.

Best of luck. ....

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2003-08-19          62191

Thanks for the note Murf. I did my little part for Earnie and turned off the water heater around 4pm. Without your comment I certainly would have forgot to turn it back on and my wife likely would have something to say about the bath.

Since we don't seem to have blackouts in the North I must be a hero for doing my little part. I wonder how Earnie's $100 million portable diesel generators are working out as a substitute for the out of commission nucs.
....

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Murf
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2003-08-20          62239

Well, so far nobody has thrown the big switch, at least not in our neck of the woods.

As for the $100 million generators he paid his friends for (the company that supplies them was created by one of his party's biggest for the sole purpose, and got the contract as a "direct award contract" without it going to tender) came up in an article in our local newspaper after the blackout.

What follows is that article from Sunday August 17th;

"Think you felt frustrated Thursday? Three hours after all of Ontario went dark, Larry Moffat was standing beside emergency generators in Markham that could power thousands of homes -- and he couldn't turn them on.

"This is unprecedented right now," Mr. Moffat said with a wave at the 19 trailer-sized turbines his Vaughan-based company, Toromont Industries Ltd., had lined up along 14th Avenue in Markham.

The province recently ordered the natural gas-fired machines and seven smaller engines beside Toromont's Hwy. 7 headquarters in Concord to stand ready for the rest of the year, able in 15 minutes to pour power into the grid.

But when the whole system failed, it was not safe to turn on any of the generators, at least by Thursday evening.

"We're ready, but until they get some power into the grid to allow these things to operate, these things are on standby awaiting their call," the Toromont vice-president said at about 7 p.m.

Mr. Moffat expected the machines to be turned on as the grid was pieced back together in sequence but said that decision belonged to Ontario's Independent Electricity Market Operator, not Toromont or Markham Hydro.

"Otherwise, you have a risk of damaging a whole lot of valuable equipment," he said before boarding a motor coach that headed west.

Yesterday, the company was finally told to start its generators at 4:30 a.m. and keep them running.

"They continue to operate," Mr. Moffat said."

Now they are saying the present spell of hot humid weather (high 80's & lw 90's with 90+% humidity), which will be with us until at least early next week, will certainly push the electric system to the breaking point unless loads are reduced. The 'state of emergency' continues and the electrical authorities are inspecting large users and telling them to reduce usage drastically or they will be cut off.

The big fear is a collapse in a portion of the grid taking everything else down again, each time that happens it is harder and more costly to put it back up.

Best of luck.
....

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TomG
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2003-08-21          62291

Murf: The first I heard about those generators was from a Hydro guy when I was filling gas cans for my generator. I asked him if I really needed the gas. He told me about the $1-million portables but said the gov should have been able to get them for 80-million. Guess that's the nature of untendered contracts.

Well, perhaps it's not a brother in law factor. The way things are done in big gov/business, maybe a tendering process really would cost $20-million. Or, maybe tendering would take the whole summer, or at least until after they got the cranky nucs that have been shut down for years back on-line.


....

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Murf
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2003-08-21          62310

Actually Tom it wasn't squat to do with the cost, Uncle Ernie was gearing up for an expected election call at the time the decision to RENT these gen-sets was made, I guess he didn't envy having to campaign in the dark.

Then SARS hit...

Then the lights went out...

Then his Energy Minister fired the just-hired "Commissioner of Energy Conservation"...

The electric workers union is allegedly poised to release a scathing report that says if the 'big guys' had been on the ball Thursday around 4pm they could have kept Toronto & surrounding area lit up NO PROBLEM, but they left the grid intact hoping to keep the whole thing up for POLITICAL REASONS...

Now the FERTILIZER is hitting the fan...

Should be an interesting campaign after all.

Best of luck. ....

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Ducati996
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2003-08-21          62336

DocsNotIn,

It might be hard for the people who were not effected by this blackout, to understand the bases you thought you had covered were not and were venerable. This blackout was so widespread and effected all resources, that if it was a prolonged event (thank god it wasnt) everybody would be in trouble. Most stations did not have generators to pump fuel (diesel or gas), Supermarkets which I cant believe didnt have generators (food went bad). The list goes on !!
Luckily I have a generator ( Coleman 5500 w/6500 surge 9HP)
It was more fuel effiecient than I thought it was running over 10 Hrs on 5 gal. tank. I was lucky to get in line and fill up on gas jugs for 3 days worth, after that what happens? scary thought however and since I'm too close to NYC and sitting on an island, I'm forced to think of different scenerios. Anyway to think of a doomsday scenerio all the time is not healthy or productive. For people out in the country who really have been Insulated by the true effects of 9/11, you are lucky and should be greatful.
You might have enough gas, or enough food but for how long?
How much is enough? If communications are down, how do you contact love ones? If you get hurt which hospital is running? Food? where do you go when the supermarkets are spoiled?? This stuff happened and much more in that 24 hour period. You will not have every angle covered throughout this ordeal.
Just something for all to put in perspective...I know Doc knows what its like for this brief period. The rest should hope they never see it..

Ducati996
....

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