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wigglybridge
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 82 Vermont
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2004-02-05          76047

So here it is, early February and I'm finally deciding chains *would* be a good idea while clearing snow with my JD 4110 on our steep 700' gravel drive with drop-offs on both sides...

I've searched the area dealers/autostores, etc high and wide and can't find any chains that anyone thinks would fit. The search wasn't helped by the committee to make umpteen different standards for tire sizes. So it looks like tirechains.com.

But does anyone have any feedback on what's the best chain for R4s? It would look like either 2-link or what tirechains.com calls 'duo-grip' which keep the cross links from falling in between the treads.

It may be a moot point since they're out of stock on the 2-link, but anyone have any pointers for me?

Thanks!


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Murf
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2004-02-05          76048

I'm going to offer 'plan B' instead.

If you arethinking of chains purely for the safety factor on an icey driveway and not for traction in deep snow then I have another suggestion. It is faster, easier, and based on 20+ years 'practice' a better all-round solution.

Good old-fashioned tire studs.

We use the ones designed for ice racing and normally used on motorcycles, quads, and ice-racing or rally cars.

They look sort of like sheet metal screws except the flanges around the hex head are very tall and sharp. They are usually made of carbide steel. They are installed with a nut-driver tip in a screwgun or cordless drill.

They work VERY well on ice, especially with hard rubber tires like R-4's although we use them on turfs too. The nicest part is they don't take away from the ride quality and they don't move around or come loose.

Best of luck. ....

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wigglybridge
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2004-02-05          76049

Murph, that is an interesting alternative, and I remember doing a search and finding some info you had posted on this sometime back. This tractor is 1.25 miles from the nearest pavement, so that could work.

But while less important, traction in deep snow *is* also a factor -- I'd like to be able to move around a bit better on my land in general. Would they help me at all with that?

Right now we don't have any ice here -- just 10" snow, and I'm not getting much traction. The R4s are at 17psi front and 31 rear. That seem about right? ....

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kwschumm
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2004-02-05          76050

My opinion is that R4s, like most compromises, don't excel at anything. Well, maybe they're OK if you do all your work on pavement or hard, dry ground. I'd recommend either R1s or, if you mow, turfs with chains. R1s do pretty well in snow around here without chains and they do very well in muddy conditions without plugging, unlike R4s. ....

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Murf
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2004-02-05          76051

The studs will help, to a point, with plain 'ole snow.

You run into a problem known as 'snow-shoeing' when you are driving in anything soft enough for the tread bars to penetrate into. It works like this, the bar sinks in causing the casing to compress the material as well. If the bar keeps settling in until the material between the bars is packed enough to support the weight, like a snow-shoe does, then the bar doesn't actually connect to anything and all it has to push against is more mush. At that point you're not going anywhere fast. If the studs make contact with frozen ground you will DEFINITELY get more traction, if not they will do almost nothing, then only chains will help, and again only marginally. It doesn't matter what tread you have if it can't grip anything. That's why Ag. tires are so good in the soft stuff, they really bite down through.

R-4's are notoriously bad for this because of their low profile tread style.

On the other hand I am running R-4's on my 'Bota and was working in VERY deep snow at my cpottage this past weekend without any problems, although it was unseasonably mild, low 30's and so the traction was good because the snow was packing, powder would have been different.

The pressure you run your tires is VERY variable, the best way to do determine it is to load the machine to the point it will operate under then slowly lower the tire pressure until the entire tread, side to side, is just touching the ground. As an example, when I have my boxblade in the air the entire tread touches the ground with 35psi, and a pretty good bulge beyond even. When there is nothing on the 3pth and the rear tires are at 25psi only the center 8" - 10" touches the ground.

Best of luck. ....

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wigglybridge
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2004-02-05          76056

Ok, been doing some research on the ice screws -- how do I tell what size to get? Do I try bigger and bigger ones until I puncture the tire? ;) ....

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Murf
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2004-02-05          76060

I believe the length we use is either 5/8" or 3/4" length.

But I do like your testing procedure, when guys in the shop ask me how tight something needs to be I tell them to tighten it up until just before it breaks.... the young ones sometimes even ask how they'll know when that is. I reply "experience".

Mark is right about the tire pressure on R-4's, I wouldn't run them any less than 20psi, 25psi would be safer.

Best of luck. ....

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wigglybridge
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2004-02-05          76073

Yes, Mark, studded tires are legal here, not sure if there's a month limitation, but I know people run studded tires on cars here.

I will lower the tire pressure and see how it's sitting with the blower on the back, that's about 400 lbs. And there's a couple of good cycle shops in town, I'll check them for ice screws tomorrow -- denniskirk.com is out of stock on the 5/8, next size up is 7/8.

Thank you guys! ....

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wigglybridge
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2004-02-05          76087

You've definitely got my attention, Mark, since I'm already doing a lot of driving backwards with the blower, reducing the potential for 'bone-jarring shock' is high on my list!

So, sorry to be thickheaded, I've never run chains on anything before -- how does using car tires with chains reduce that a lot?

And I guess you mean swap the tires on the rims 2x a year. I guess most people do that anyway -- I've got an extra set of rims for my snows on the car.

And this will get me more traction in deep stuff? But it sounds expensive unless car chains are cheaper.

Hmmm. Now I've got options from Murph's ice screws at $17, to chains for $175, to new tires AND chains. ....

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grinder
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2004-02-06          76099

Wiggly
If you stud your tires what are you going to do in the spring?
You will need another set and the job of changing them.
I think you would be way ahead of it by putting on a
set of ice chains. The ride issue should be min. with a set
of chains with enough chain. In other words very little
space between the loops. I don't think studs will give
you much in packed snow. I think they do best on glare ice.
Guy's that work in the woods around here put on Ice Chains.
Call this company and ask your ?'s, They are a first class
operation. I'm not sure about shipping, but if it's a problem let me know. They are in the next town and I will
help you if I can.
If the link does not work,
Wallingfords.com BABAC tire chains ....


Link:   http://www.wallingfords.com/Babacfeatures.htm

 
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wigglybridge
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2004-02-06          76127

Whoa, Mark, I see it in pic #11. Thanks for explaining how and why it all works. So your thought is I might not even need the chains, ergo, for the same cost or less I'm better off. I'm thinking about it, but also wondering how much car radials will like stomping around in the woods when I'm logging. So you just store your radials, or sold them? ....

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wigglybridge
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2004-02-06          76130

Grinder, thanks for the link and your offer to help -- much appreciated, I checked out the site and will give them a call.

I don't see the studs as a problem here in the spring -- as mentioned earlier, I'm 1.25 miles from the nearest pavement, and if I get down there once in the next few years I'll be surprised. So I don't see a reason the studs couldn't stay on year 'round.

Besides, in spring here the mud's so deep the tractor won't care whether it has studs or not -- last year there were cars so deep in the orad that the grader operators were talking about just tamping them down a bit more for fill!

But now I gotta get on the phone with wallingfords and to the cycle shops about studs, and think about Mark's idea a bit more...

thanks again, guys, it's amazing the resources here. ....

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Murf
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2004-02-06          76137

Grinder, you guys must have chains made of much softer steel than we have up here because ours will rattle the fillings out of your head. The more chain idea doesn't make any sense to me, in fact my experience has been the opposite, more crossbars mean more bumps, not less.

Bush work is different from what we are talking about here, first of all your dealing with uneven ground, rocks and roots, a couple of chain bars are nothing in that mix of bumps, besdies, they need the chains for traction since plowing or blowing a forest is rather impractical.

For many years, until customers put a finacial 'gun to my head' and forced me to run R-4's, all we ran was full turfs all year-round. What gives you the most grip is the edge of a tread block, turfs have many hundreds more little edges to grab with than do R-4's. Unfortunately the customer is always right.

On smaller units Mark's concept of running Light Truck Radials (LTR's) is a good way to go, I wish I could find a set of 24"ers for my 'Bota, one the other hand maybe it will match up to a big truck tire size.... hmmmm.

Best of luck. ....

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Murf
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2004-02-06          76146

Heyyyyyy, you may be on to something, I could have the very first 'Bota LOW-RIDER......

I could 'cruise' and cut grass at the SAME TIME......

I can only imagine what the Mexican farm-labourers over the back fence would say about that......

Wow, mang, where did you score that bustin' ride? Thats really phat, gringo....


ROFLMAO, Best of luck. ....

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grinder
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2004-02-06          76154

I thought the orig. question was about chains on a steep gravel drive with drop off's. Sounded like a little safety
concerns to me. No the chains are not softer,but there are drawbacks to all solutions. I figured he was leaving some
snow behind as he is blowing a gravel road. Don't see where
studs would do much. If I was concerned about taking a ride
down over the bank I would put up with the ride. A set of chains with loops every 2-3 inches will ride better than
every 10-12 ", you are constantly on chain,instead of bouncing from tire to chain. He also wanted something for the woods. Just my opinion from my experience.
There are many different chains for different applications
and maybe some may not be aware of that,just my 2 cents.
well maybe 3.
....

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blizzard
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2004-02-06          76167

WigglyB
I have some experience with chains and studs on F150-F250 plow trucks and passenger cars. There is absolutely no fair comparison, v-bar chains will win hands down every time on snow or ice. I run the 'Duo-grip v-bar' type on my R1 equipped Kubota, and though the lugs mask the chains somewhat traction is still very good, would be even better with the shallow lugs of the R4's. The guys with ATV's mention putting 200 or more studs per tire, I don't know what that would work out to on your size. As grinder says, more cross chains do make for a smoother ride, in my experience. One thing you have to have, for safety, is cross chains close enough so one is in contact with the snow/ice at all times. Applying the brakes with a sparse chain will result in the tire stopping exactly where there is NO chain, that is at the point where there is the least traction.
To me it seems your drive may require the best, not easiest or least expensive, traction aids. But these are all traction aids, it is always possible to get into a skid.
Good Luck, and drive safely. ....

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wigglybridge
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2004-02-06          76170

Bliz, how much do the v-bars bring to the party for traction vs plain duo-grips?

I ask because the duo-grips for my 4110 are $177 shipped, the duo-grip v-bars are $288 shipped. But I hear you that the first time they save my fanny they're paid for.

Other extreme is Murph's ice screws, which the local cycle shop had this morning for $13.95 and I can get them tomorrow. ....

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blizzard
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2004-02-06          76173

On snow, not much. On ice Everything! Plain chain tends to slide on ice, scuffing up the surface a little. The v-bar lugs really cut in. They may slide, but I would say they stop/go 300% better, at least. Here's my non-scientific ratings:

.........................On Snow..............On Ice
--------------------------------------------------
Tire Alone ................1....................1
Tire w/Studs ..............1....................3
Tire w/plain chains........4....................4
Tire w/v-bar chain.........8..................10-15

In my experience, the wetter the snow the more chains,
v-bar especially, out perform regular tires.
( sorry about the formatting... )
Here's a link to another chart. ....


Link:   4x4chains

 
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wigglybridge
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2004-02-06          76180

Bliz, that's a pretty impressive link, the charts are convincing. My drive's not 22 degrees (!) so maybe the results won't be so extreme, but it certainly makes its point. And your data, while a little more subjective, sounds good too.

The owner's manual says no on front chains. So I'm now thinking I should get the duo-grip v-bars for the back and stud the fronts. Make sense? ....

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blizzard
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2004-02-06          76187

WigglyB,
Once again I'm guessing, but I bet there is a clearance problem that precludes chains in front. So... go for the studs.
Looking around I found some screw info here:
www.ronnies.com/store/page1641.html
I bet the screws bite a lot harder than the regular snow tire studs because of their size. General consenus is they tend to come out over logs, etc. Inexpensive to experiment with, though.
bliz
Here's a link that mentions ice screws and studs. ....


Link:   Cold_Kutter

 
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MYbota
Join Date: Jan 2004
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2004-02-06          76206

Hi guys.My handle last year was MEY. Thought wiggly might like another opinion. I started out last winter minus chains. The first big snow we had I had a rough time getting up over a short but fairly steep knuckle from the barn to my driveway. My kubota is equipped with R4's. So I got hold of a set of truck (big rig) tire chains with the v bars and cut them to length. What a difference that made! This year, before winter got here I added an extra crosslink between each of the existing ones to close the gap to 4-5 inches. The result is smoother ride and even better traction.....in snow and on ice. Not much problem getting up that knuckle now ! ....

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grinder
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2004-02-07          76214

Wiggly
I think you will find that chains on all fours is not
a good idea because of the strain on the running gear.
....

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TomG
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2004-02-07          76226

Yes, picking up a load of slush with the loader or hitting section of dry pavement can transfer a lot traction to the front drive. Sometimes you hear of people who avoided the price of rear chains by running fronts only. That would seem to be a problem waiting to happen but I've heard of people doing it for years w/o problems. ....

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wigglybridge
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2004-02-07          76232

Bota, thanks for the additional info. I'm going to get the chains for the back and put the ice screws Murph suggested in the front since chains won't clear there.

Which brings us back to one of my first questions: tirechains.com has either duo-grip v-bars or 2-link ladders for this machine. Which is better? ....

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blizzard
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2004-02-07          76243

I don't know your tire size, but I would choose the V-bar type. If the 2-link ladders are available in V-bar style, then I guess it's almost a toss-up; I'd go for the most economical solution. I'd guess that the price difference wouldn't be much.
My 12.4X24 R1 Duo-grips were ~$375, which I feel was well spent.
bliz ....

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wigglybridge
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2004-02-07          76260

2-link ladders aren't available in v-bar (and in fact are out of stock altogether).

Given that, would you choose the duo-grip v-bars? ....

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blizzard
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2004-02-07          76294

Mark and WigglyB
Even the few studs in passenger 'studded tires' will reduce traction by 3-5% on clear pavement; chains, V-bar or plain, are dangerous at highway speeds on a clear road. I totally agree that steel does not have the high coefficient of friction tire compounds have.
There is no single solution that will result in maximum traction under all conditions.
Years ago I slid through a toll booth at the start of a light rain, the approach being well oiled from all the leaking trucks and cars. Do I think chains would have helped? Yes! Would they have been appropriate for the other 88 miles of my trip? NO!
Around here we usually get 2-3 freezing rain events per winter, sometimes just a glaze, sometimes 3/4", and sunny days, milder temps, and a little wind can make turn a driveway (or the road) into a skating rink in an afternoon.
If WigglyB has concerns about skating down/off his drive, I stand firm in my recommendation of V-bar chains as the best traction aid. Go for the Duo-Grip V-bars Wiggly.

Snow has ended here, no freezing rain, Gotta go clear the drive. Good discussion here!
bliz ....

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wigglybridge
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2004-02-07          76297

Actually, Mark, my wheels following the blower might be in a very different environment than you're imagining.

This is a rough, steep gravel drive. The blower skid shoes have to be set for clearance of almost an inch to avoid excavating at inflection points in the drive, which results in actual clearance of more like 1.5" most of the time. There's a LOT of packed snow on the drive even after I'm done. And while today I (hey, let's have some cheers for the newbie from the crowd, here, please!) learned how to float the bucket and scrape it [YAY!] there is STILL a lot of packed ice/snow on that drive. I slid off into the ditch AGAIN.

That said, I don't quite follow the bar floor analogy, although it's a great image! But if it was comparing to a clean paved drive after a close-shave snowblower job... well, that sure ain't here. And I don't see a comparable situation here where chains are going to cause me LOSS of traction, probably especially the v-bars.

By the way, I think one CAN question that study. The conditions were totally unrealistic: very few people try to drive up a 22 degree slope on packed snow (even fewer succeed). I think an experiment on a more normal slope would have yielded quite different results -- not in the sense that the order of preference would have been different, but the performances would have been much closer.

Anyway, please don't bow out, Mark, and stay off those barroom floors! ....

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wigglybridge
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2004-02-07          76298

Thanks again to everyone who has helped me out here, I truly appreciate it! I think it's inevitable that the different conditions we all encounter bring out different solutions, and that's a Wonderful Thing.

If there is ONE RIGHT ANSWER, my experience is you usually find out what it is after trying a lot of wrong answers, and what this group does is allow us all to share a bunch of RIGHT answers and weed out the complete losers.

I'm going to make the guess from all I've heard that the right answer for me in my environment with my tractor and my job mix is the duo-grip v-bars on the back and ice screws on the front. That's MY guess from all of the great solutions and experience you all have given me. If I wasn't running around in the woods most of the year, I'd probably have given Mark's LTR tires a shot.

And if I later end up using the chains only to help extend the logging season, hey, that's great too! ....

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blizzard
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2004-02-07          76300

Have fun WigglyB and all participants.
bliz ....

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grinder
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2004-02-08          76314

Wiggly
You probably know this but I will mention it anyway.
Old timers trick jack uo the tractor, let most of the air out of the tires. Install chains as tight as you can and
blow the tire back up.
have fun, I think you made the safe choice. ....

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grinder
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2004-02-08          76315

Wiggly
You probably know this but I will mention it anyway.
Old timers trick jack uo the tractor, let most of the air out of the tires. Install chains as tight as you can and
blow the tire back up.
have fun, I think you made the safe choice. ....

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grinder
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2004-02-08          76338

correction:
"let SOME air out of the tire" ....

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blizzard
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2004-02-13          76760

WigglyB,
I hope you'll let us all know how your chains/studs work out.

bliz ....

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kubotaguy
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2004-02-13          76766

Grinder:
Letting air out of the tires may sound like a good idea but great care should be taken especially with the R-4's (if their loaded). You could end up losing all of your fluid. I had my front tires low on air pressure for traction and it almost came all the way off the rim!!! I realize you wouldn't drive it like that, but the side walls on R-4's are so stiff, the seal on the bead seems to break fairly easy. ....

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blizzard
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2004-02-13          76767

If I remember correctly, the instructions for my chains (from tirechains.com) warned against adding pressure once the chains were installed. It is best to get them on tight and keep them tight. Tirechains.com has reasonably priced rubber and spring-type tighteners.
You may have to shorten the side chains. The cross chains should be correct for your tire, but they don't make a custom length for every tire diameter.
bliz ....

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wigglybridge
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 82 Vermont
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2004-02-13          76770

The tires in this case are not loaded -- yet another thing I got here from either Mark or TomG, one of y'all suggested EZ-Weights, and I love 'em!

The latest is that I ordered duo-grip v-bars from tirechains.com, they're supposed to arrive today (ironically UPS hasn't been coming up our road due to conditions!).

When I went down to the cycle shop to get ice screws for the front, the ones they had were 1/2". They had _very_ broad flanges around the head, which I liked, and the heads were large and sharp, so that all looked good. But the threads were not as coarse as I'd have liked, and with only 1/2", I took a pass.

So I went to the Harley shop -- they didn't have any in stock, but could get them the next day. But a combination of the guy there talking about people losing them and then horses picking them up (we don't have horses, but the neighbors' draft horses are here all the time) and my worries about strain on the front end in 4-wheel has me postponing that part of it. I'll probably end up getting them for steering, but one thing at a time.

So when the chains get here, I'll see how it goes with those -- it's snowing right now, and there's plenty left from previous storms. I have a couple of woodpiles to try to get to through some snow, and I'm outta wood due to the cold January we had. That and normal snowblowing/scraping will tell me a lot in the next week.

Thanks for your continued interest in the saga! ....

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grinder
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 677 central Maine
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2004-02-14          76827

Another thing that will pick up those broken off studs is
your car in the summer.
The logging companies up north have been arguing this one
with the snowmobilers and four wheelers for a while.
Seems though the trucks are picking up the broken off
studs and puncturing tires. These are private roads and there is some talk of banning them.
I don't believe you will need anything on front, just tap
the brake left or right if your having trouble. You won't
believe where you will go with chains. ....

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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2004-02-14          76833

The studs you are referring to must be the sheet metal screw type.

Standard automotive ice studs would not cause problems like that. ....

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bmlekki
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 185 Upstate, NY
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2004-07-21          91576

Wiggly,

How did you make out with those duo-grip v-bars, chains?

If you check out my pic #11 you'll see my logging path, is almost impassable, and I wonder if you've gotten in to any mud with those chains. Not to mention it sounds like I have about the same kind of driveway.

Check out my post for the scoop....
Thanks,
Brian ....


Link:   Use R1 R4?

 
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wigglybridge
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 82 Vermont
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2004-07-21          91584

Brian, I have not gotten into any mud with the chains -- I took them off at the apparent end of serious snow (luckily I was right!) and just as mud season was starting. I decided that getting around in the soft ground was not worth tearing up the meadow I'd have to go through to get to my road, so I just did work around the house until it firmed up.

My driveway is steep enough and crowned properly so that mud is just not an issue. Even when the "main" road is totally impassable, my driveway is dry and firm. That sorta says Murf is on the right track -- better material may be your answer.

Unless someone else can chime in with mud/chain experience... ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2004-07-22          91623

It's one of those things most people never give a second thought to, us wacky engineer-types analyze the heck out of everything.

Mud is simply two things in the same place, at the same time. Water and soil capable of retaining the water. Eliminate either one (or both) of those ingredients and you have no mud.

Drainage will go a long way, but even a good rain or snow meltwater will put enough water in the ground to mix up a first class batch of gumbo.

If you can change the soil in that area you have to drive in it will be the most effective in the long run. The more you churn up the soil the worse the mud gets. Eventually the ruts will be so deep and rough that you will never get through there anyways, especially the areas that will turn to standing ponds of water.

Best of luck.

....

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bmlekki
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 185 Upstate, NY
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2004-07-22          91626

True True...

I been thinking from Murfs last post on the Use R1 R4s( the gumbo) if I scrap out that black muck and fill with dirt fill a bit higher so can make a little drainage trench to keep it drier. Now I need to find stone or fill... ....

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