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AG vs Industrial tires

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woodguy
Join Date: Jun 2008
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2008-06-26          154830

Hi,
I'm going to be a first time tractor owner and would like to know which would be best for me. Ill mostly be hauling out cordwood on sloped lot as well as snow removal on paved driveway. I may rototill a small portion (1/2 acre).
The dealer's setting my tractor up now and says I want AG. Is that what I want?
I'm purchasing a Kabota L2800 w/fel & 3pth.
Anyone have an opinion about this model?


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kwschumm
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2008-06-26          154834

The downside to AG tires is that they leave tracks and tear up soft surfaces (including turf). The upside is better traction in snow (your case), mud, and soil. That's not to say you'd never need chains depending on conditions.

I had R4 industrial tires for a few months and replaced them with AG due to traction problems on sloped lots, softer and muddy soil, snow, and even dry, powdery clay soil. They're mostly good for hard surfaces, which is what they were designed for.

Some guys recommend turf in snow but it doesn't seem that they would do well in rough woods country. ....

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auerbach
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2008-06-26          154835

Your dealer's right.

Tractors can tip easily, so when you're on those hilly areas, keep that bucket low. ....

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Art White
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2008-06-26          154836



Your dealer is right on his recommendations. The ag tires are the best for grabbing the ground on a side hill or is mud from continual travel. This is the worst of your conditions to deal with and they will work well with the tiller or as good as any of your three choices.
On a paved driveway you would find it hard to beat turf tires for snow removal! I put the ag's second there do to the inflexability of the industrial tires.
The industrials seem to be moving to the wayside a bit on the compacts as we just had two come in with industrials and the new tractors went out with turfs! Good feed back on the ride from the owners! ....

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woodguy
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2008-06-26          154842

Thanks for the input. Unsure on a lot of the finer points and appreciate your help. thanks again. woodguy ....

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auerbach
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2008-06-27          154865

Two posts above suggested turf tread gives more traction on snow. Where did that idea come from?

....

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Murf
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2008-06-27          154866

Not "on snow" but for doing snow removal on hard surfaces, hard-packed gravel, asphalt or concrete nothing will give you better traction than true turf tires will. Period.

In our case we have to run R4's because it says so in the contracts, but even the customers agree that they are a poor choice for the job.

IMHO the reason a lot of people want R4's is the same reason they 'need' a TLB, because it has that 'baby bulldozer' look. I've seen quite a few people buy that setup and within a few years trade it for a compact or sub-compact with turf tires and just a FEL.

Best of luck. ....

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earthwrks
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2008-06-27          154877

Murf: "baby bulldozer"---do you mean "baby backhoe"?

The theory behind turfs on hardpacked snow or ice is the same as passenger car/truck tires: It's not the contact area or rubber on the road but the tread lugs' ability to capture and hold snow; in car tires it's referred to as siping. The captured snow creates adhesion resulting in traction.

IMHO rubber compound for these tires in this scenario isn't really an issue or a factor compared to car tires made for ice and snow, which can make a difference. ....

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Murf
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2008-06-27          154880

EW, IMHO the rubber compound is a huge part of the equation.

R4's are made from a very hard compound to make them better resist cuts, punctures and wear. Turf's on the other hand are made of a very soft rubber to allow them to flex and fold and to conform to a surface so as to exert as little force as possible on the ground.

In the winter R4's are as hard as nails. We performed an experiment as part of trying (unsuccessfully) to convince some of our customers to allow us to run tires other than R4's. We hooked a scale (designed for measuring a weight on a crane) to a chain, then to the pintle hook of a truck and measured how many pounds force the tractor could exert before the tires slipped on a smooth concrete floor in one of our storage sheds. The first try was at 75°, both with R4's, and with turf's, on the same tractor. The second at 30°, again with both types of tires on the same tractor.

The second test measured significantly lower readings with the R4's, more than 42% less force exerted in cold weather, compared to 8% less traction with the turf's on.

However, tire pressures make a big difference too, just raising or lowering the air pressure in a tire can make a huge difference in traction too.

Best of luck. ....

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woodguy
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2008-06-27          154887

Hey Murf & Earthwrks,
You guy are truly dedicated tractor guys! All this info is great and being a carpenter by trade myself it still proves that no one tool is perfect for every situation or job. I'm going to stick w/ AGs for the woods stuff and take my chances in the snow. There's always chains and probably cheaper than changing tires for winter.
Thanks, Woodguy ....

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hardwood
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2008-06-27          154888

I'm still a hold out for the R-4's as a general purpose tire, but I have noticed more of thr small compact's 30 hp and down at the Deere dealer have turfs now, a few years ago he would hardly take a trade in with turfs, nobody wanted them here. ....

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Murf
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2008-06-27          154890

To a certain extent I agree with you Frank, I must admit, we're not getting as many R4 tires ripped up or punctured as we used to, but there not as nice as the turfs are in many ways, not the least of which is ride quality.

Woodguy, I would use the analogy of a Swiss Army knife & R4 tires, they'll do many jobs, it's just not the best tool (or tire) for many of those jobs, but will do them.

FWIW, I wouldn't even try getting on frozen a frozen forest floor without a good set of V-bar style chains on the back wheels regardless of what type of tire I had.

On another point, be VERY careful about HOW you haul that wood out. Bear in mind that if you pull by the 3pth with it in a raised position, such as with a skidding attachment connected there, a snag can easily result in a rollover. Whenever possible, pull from the drawbar, and even then only while traveling slowly.

Best of luck. ....

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earthwrks
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2008-06-27          154895

Murf, that test you did was it cold and ice-covered? What I'm getting at is the test surface drastically affects the empirical results. And what were you eferring to with the angle degrees?

Rubber composition IMHO with regard to tractors, is moot only because you really can't "order" any particular tire or type of tire by the compound--what you git is what you git. And like you touched on, air pressure will affect any tire's raction. A tire that is too low will tend to fold into itself with traction onlyu around where it intially contacts the ground. Turf tires are more flexible by design in that the separate lug blocks lend themselves to be able to articulate or conform individually over an object---sort of like finger tips gripping versus a large, inflexible, lug like an R4--sort of like wearing a punching glove to grasp something (poor analogy, I know--me tired--pun intended)

....

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harvey
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2008-06-28          154909

For the original problem ag tires are the answer. Ags are very usable on all types of terrain. My old tractor had them I mowed my yard with them, used them everywhere. They probably not good on lawn. However this 35hp tractor has turfs I use them doing everything. Woods, mud, backhoe, snow, grading, plowing ground etc. Yup sometimes I need chains. I'll probably never go to another tire for all around use. ....

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DRankin
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2008-06-28          154917

Quote:
Originally Posted by Murf | view 154866
Not "on snow" but for doing snow removal on hard surfaces, hard-packed gravel, asphalt or concrete nothing will give you better traction than true turf tires will. Period.


Well...... there might be one tire that exceeds the traction of turfs when clearing snow........ A similar sized Mud/Snow Radial SUV tire. ....

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Murf
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2008-06-30          154960

Angle? Jeff'ry ole son, you sure were tired.......

Mark, point taken, I just didn't include them since it's only the sub-CUT's that have small enough tires to be swapped out for SUV tires.


Best of luck. ....

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earthwrks
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2008-06-30          154962

(CLICK!) Murf--DOH! You meant degrees as in TEMPERATURE. I was thinking of pull-tests at an (degree) angle-of-pull.
Yeah, I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, although I have been told I'm a tool hahahaha thought I'd say it before you did :P ....

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Murf
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2008-06-30          154963

Quote:
Originally Posted by earthwrks | view 154962
You meant degrees as in TEMPERTAURE.


No, actually I meant "temperature" .......

Something about Kenneth's fingers & spelling you keep bring up comes to mind here...... LOL.

Best of luck. ....

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hardwood
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2008-06-30          154969

EW; You touched on the density of the rubber used in tires. A few years ago Deere had a problem with rear tires on some of it's bigger ag tractors. Corn stubble or soybean stubble would push thru them causing leaks. I don't remember the tire brand involved, but the rubber was just too soft. Frank. ....

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kthompson
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2008-06-30          154974

Quote:
Originally Posted by Murf | view 154963
No, actually I meant "temperature" .......Something about Kenneth's fingers & spelling you keep bring up comes to mind here...... LOL.Best of luck.


Murf, I knew it was just a matter of time before the ole boy's eyesight would fail him and those fat fingers would hit. :) kt ....

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earthwrks
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2008-06-30          154979

Murf that was for our French readers.

Spelling: I figure if you can't beet 'em, joyne 'em.

Oh yeah, and while you were pulling that proverbial wood splinter from my eye...was that "mini-bulldozer" or "mini-backhoe"? tehehe

Touche', eh?

Signed,

Fat Fingers Jr. ....

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