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 01-27-2007, 08:17 Post: 139198
harvey



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 PTO 6X6 dump trailer

Need some thoughts on my next project. Have a old 1955 GMC dump truck.

Thought is: cut it down to the frame git rid of cab, motor and steer axle. Mount the transmission in the frame, closer to rear axle, use the PTO to power the drive line for a 6X6 effect to move thru steep or soft areas. Plus will have the hyd dump box. Will have hyd brakes for down grades.

Still have to look at all rotations. May have to use 2 transmissions to slow down ground speed.

ANY THOUGHTS? TIA Harvey






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 01-27-2007, 10:26 Post: 139200
earthwrks

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 PTO 6X6 dump trailer

Harvey--clarification:

If you remove the steer axle then you really don't have a 6x6 (it's a tandem axle right?)---you have a semi-self-propelled trailer "steered" by the tractor, right?

The biggest problems I see are 1.) If you remove the ballast weight of the cab etc. there's a greater chance to either overturn the rig (front to back and side to side)and what it's attached to--you lose a tremendous amount of stability removing the front axle.

And the bigger problem: Matching ground speed perfectly between the tow vehicle and the trailer. Otherwise, whichever has the most traction will take over, and that could be disasterous going down hill if the trailer is pushing the tractor--it WILL jacknife. Uphill the tractor will tend to slide to whichever side of the road is lower or looser--like being on ice. Minimally, you will spin tires--which equates to lost traction on loose dirt. OR bind up AND break something in the driveline due to driveline buildup.

If money isn't a big deal, sell the dump and buy a newer military dump a true 6x6--they can be had for about $10,000. Or find a 6wd chassis cab from a wrecked utility truck or concrete truck and swap the dump bed.

Or just buy a 6wd dump.

The whole exercise seems like a big job from any angle. And what will it be worth when you're done? Hint the new "owner" will be paying by the pound. Smile






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 01-28-2007, 06:39 Post: 139219
harvey



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 PTO 6X6 dump trailer

4X4 tractor plus pto driven trailer axle = 6X6

Yes I understand matching the ground speed. That is why I may have to add a second trans. The trailer only has to assist in soft or steep going so some mismatch is no problem.

Biggest concern at the moment is rotations is all are the same it's easy if not reverse gear boxes, reducers etc.

Can not buy to my knowledge a trailer that has ground driving wheels.

The 55 has a 2-3 yard box its a perfect size for the small tractor, 7.5' wide and 4' to top edge of box when finished. A old 6X6 military truck would never work in some of the places I go.

It will be a good exercise to build something that makes my life easier. It will keep me from having a bunch of extra spare time, chasing wild neighbor women...

I'll have less than $350 in it plus a whole bunch of time.

When I'm dead I don't think I'll care what it sells for.






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 01-28-2007, 08:40 Post: 139220
earthwrks

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 PTO 6X6 dump trailer

Okay, I didn't realize this was a small dumper. I got that from you saying a 6x6 effect (two axles in rear one in front)--but basically you have a 2wd, single-axle, dual-tired rear axle truck if I understand?

That's fairly easy to power it if that's the case. Propelled trailers have been around for probably 50 or more years especially in the UK. Some die-hard fourwheelers out west build/use them too. But these are not dump trailers where they have to worry about overturning. I think it's Unimog that uses a PTO drive shaft that is part of the trailer hitch---it runs right through it.

If you're not loading it to the max, overturning shouldn't a problem---but I will tell you that I have a 12,500 GVW 5yd dump trailer that I filled with broken asphalt and dirt while it was on level ground and off the truck. I stood on the tongue while I raising it to operate the raising control to get the tongue off the pavement to block under the jack which it slipped off earlier. The box was raising but the tongue wan't going up---all of a sudden I'm standing on the tongue 8' in the air and the back of the trailer in reast on the ground with one set of tires off the ground. Even when done properly connected to the truck and dumping lik I should, I can lift the rear wheels of the truck off the ground enough that I have to put it in 4wd to pull away. But I'm jis' sayin'

I would leave the front frame the way it is without the cab etc and remove the front cross member then bend the frame horns together to form the tongue. I see a lot of that here in 'sippi--utility trailers made from a truck they found.

That said, your drive situation may be easier than first thought. You don't even a PTO-drive assist. A simple hydraulic motor powered by the remotes or any adequate hydraulic source. You have to determine how to plumb it so that when it's not actuated that it doesn't become a brake.






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 01-28-2007, 10:22 Post: 139222
harvey



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 PTO 6X6 dump trailer

I got the idea while in Korea watching the farmers there. They have all kinds of improvised things to make their lives easier. But they are still some of the hardest working people I have seen.

Their little tractors and pto powered carts were the cats butt in the paddies.

It is something to keep me off the streets and away from the wild neighbor ladies Wink yeah right

Thanks for the input. I do not expect it to be to complicated. Just gotta get started. The truck has been here for a year now...

PS. You will get that very light front end thing when you do not open the tail gate. Worst case I've ever seen with our big dump trucks is box stuck in air and WILL NOT come down with out the help of other equipment.






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 01-28-2007, 13:41 Post: 139268
earthwrks

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Harvey---funny you mention the bed in the air thing---when I was 15 and had a learners permit, it just that--except I had the front end off the ground so high (near vertical) I could not open the door or get out. I had a load of wet sand that wouldn't come out (I got pulled over for being overloaded and was told I to unload at a dump--flustered, I forgot to open the tailgate) Up and over it went. The sand slowly spilled out after what seemed to take forever. Then all of a sudden it came smashing down--all I remember was seeing seeing the sky, then tall treetops, the ground---back up to the tree tops, the ground--lower treetops, the ground and finally one last bounce. I about crapped my pants. That little side trip put me about 2 hours behind to the job for my dad. Being a new truck I thought I was going to get the s--- beat out of me. Instead, he laughed. Two weeks later he got the real ticket in the mail. Then the feathers flew.






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 01-29-2007, 10:37 Post: 139295
Murf

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 PTO 6X6 dump trailer

Harvey, we used something similar on a remote job a few times.

PTO powered will also severly limit your turning radius.

The two big differences were that the trailers were a) hydrostat drive, powered by a stand alone engine, and b) it drive was push only, it went through a sort of ratchet mechanism, using theose free-wheeling Warn hubs on the drive axle so if you drove faster than the trailer was set to, it would free-wheel instead of drag.

This second part was important, it allowed you to point it into some really nasty stuff and not have to fumble with controls when it started to bog down, if the speed dropped below the set point of the drive, the trailer would automatically start to help until you sped up again.

The only other comment I would have, based on doing these types of trailers at the farm, is be sure the box is well back over the axle, like the old municipal 3 ton work trucks were, otherwise you will have so much tongue weight it will be a real problem. You don't want more than about 10% tongue weight on a rig like this.

Best of luck.






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 01-29-2007, 12:50 Post: 139299
harvey



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 PTO 6X6 dump trailer

Thanks Murf

There is nothing quite like a project. Nothing is locked in stone.

Expect to use lots of gas and rod, coggering it together.

If it works great. If it does not we'll cogger at it till it does.

I like the idea of the overruning hubs/clutch. Will ponder on that some more.






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 01-29-2007, 21:52 Post: 139317
earthwrks

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Murf what do you think of a hydraulic motor on the input shaft of the trans (for a gear range) coupled by a standard PTO overrunning clutch? Wouldn't that solve any locking hubs/clutches issues?

My mid-size General-brand backhoe uses a hydraulic motor coupled to a 4x4 truck, 2-spd, transfer case which direct-drives into the rear axle pinion. In between the transfer case and the rear axle is a disc parking brake. The rear axle is a limited-slip, narrowed, Dana 60 with a 6:1 ratio. I hear this was a common set up with hi-los in the 70's and early 80's. It's quite effective. This backhoe shared lineage and parts with Case, and the ScatBack loader.






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 01-30-2007, 08:25 Post: 139325
kthompson



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As Murf pointed out the turning radius sure will be affected by a spinning pto shaft. The double pto jointed pto unit would help. Have no idea if it would be enough. You may wish to hook up to a hay baler or such and test the turn radius with that set up. Or just read the manual for it.

The second item is pto speed does not remain constant. It does vary with engine speed and of course ground speed varies with engine speed and gear.

EW, the overrunning pto clutch came to my mind yesterday. That probably would solve the trailer pushing the tractor due to going down hill. (I only am talking about speeding up the pto shaft here and thus the engine.) I don't think it would prevent the trailer pushing the tractor due to tractor say bogging. Do wonder how the tractor's built in over running pto clutch would hold up for that.

I would assume you would be hitching to a fix draw bar and not the 3 pt hitch. Another question I have and have no idea, does your tractor's hyd have the fluid capacity to operate the dump cylinder.

Harvey, sure not saying you can not do it, find it interesting. Keep us posted.






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Discussion Boards > Active Subjects > Messages as Posted > Tractor Projects Forum

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