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I am frustrated with my loader and need advice

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matthewh
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 57 sanford, nc
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2004-07-14          90901

Here is the history.

I bought a used massey 1010 with a massey 1014 loader on it. The loader is weak.

I drained and refilled the hydro fluid and changed the filter.

I took off the relief valve and cleaned it.

No serious improvement.

The loader will not lift more than 175 or so lbs.

The loader will pick up the front of the tractor if you put the bucket flat and then tilt it forward. The loader will not pick up the front of the tractor if you point the bucket down and drop the loader and force it down. It takes weight off, but does'nt clear the ground

I have an it manual but it does not cover the loader.

I tried testing pressure from the block in between the housing (where the 3pt hitch is located) and the relief valve, and got no pressure, but I think I'm doing something wrong since there has to be pressure to lift the loader empty.

I did not alter the shims in the valve.

The 3pt seems fine.

Is there something I can do at the loaders controls. Is there a seperate relief valve in it? This is quirky. There are many things on the loaders relief valve that are tempting to take off (to see if they are stuck) etc but I don't want to end up with a yard full of washers springs etc. because I don't know what I"m doing.

PLEASE HELP.


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beagle
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2004-07-14          90923

Seems that your system is building pressure if the 3-point works fine and the bucket cylinders can lift the tractor. If you have isolated the problem to the arm cylinders, there are a few things to think about there. Normally the relief valve will relief for both circuits, the bucket and the arms. If you are having problems with just the arms, you have narrowed it down even further. Three things come to mind; bad seal on one or both of the arm cylinders, bad spool in the valve (scored or worn), or a faulty quick connect.

Try changing the lines from the the bucket to the arms at the valve and see if you gain power in the loader arms. If the bucket valve properly operates the arms, your problem is likely in the arm spool in the valve. If you still don't have pressure in the arm cylinders, but the bucket curl works fine, you likely have a bad seal in one or both of the arm cylinders. It doesn't matter if it's one or both, I would have both re-built.

Hope this helps. Try the simple stuff first and try to narrow down the source. ....

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matthewh
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2004-07-14          90930

Thank you for your reply.

Would you mind sticking with me on this?

The bucket won't curl a load up, and the loader won't lift a load up. The bucket will tilt down fast and strong and pick up the tractor. If I "point" the bucket down and drop the loader arms it won't pick up the tractor.

The relief valve I cleaned and inspected was at the 3pt hitch/tranny casing, not at the loader controls. WOuld the loader controls likely have at least one relief valve seperate from the one at the tranny? Note, the one at the tranny does have the initial hydraulic hoses coming out of it (going to the loader control box).

It does have quick connect, should I check these for debris?

What can I do at the loader control box? I wish I had a pic of it for you. I don't want to randomly take things apart, but it seems like it would be a good place for a problem to occur.

Thank you.

Matt ....

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hardwood
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2004-07-15          90934

Matt; You do have a puzzler there, Beagle has you on the right track. Sounds like you've likely found the relief valve for the whole system. You may have allready tried this but try switching the hoses in the quick couplers so that the lever has to move in the oposite diection from normal to curl the bucket. If then you're getting the same response only in thwe opposite directions the either you have a bad spool or something is restricting the return flow thru the valve spool to the sump. Quick disconnect couplers or "Pioneer Couplers" as they are commonly called do malfunction at times, normally a broken spring in a tip will cause the circut to "Slam" to a stop, a weak spring or derbris can cause partial flow, make sure they are fully coupled also. Hope we can help out. Frank. ....

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TomG
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2004-07-15          90941

I would keep in mind that the loader dump is the strongest circuit on a loader. It seems possible that the entire loader is weak but the dump circuit is still strong enough to lift the front.

I'm not sure how the pressure test was done. If it was hooking a gauge into the high-pressure line with a t-fitting then there would be little pressure unless either the loader or 3ph were used under heavy loads. If the gauge starts at 1000 psi a weak loader valve may not register on the gauge. The usual way to test the system relief pressure is to dead end a gauge (for a short time) after the relief valve. The valve should open and squeal during the test. The system relief dose sound OK though. Many loader valves do have their own relief valves but somebody would have to know the valve to say for sure. ....

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Murf
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2004-07-15          90953

Matt, there is usually a second relief valve in the loader control valve itself, if this is not set high enough, is jammed open slightly, is deeply scored, or the spring in it has weakened or broken, it will do exactly what you are talking about.

A few years back a friend & I went to an auction, he was looking for an old tractor for a chore machine at his cottage. They were offering one, an old MF65 tractor, the auctioneer stated that the PTO was shot and the FEL could barely lift itself and then would drop down as soon as the control was released, but the 3pth was fine. I whispered in his ear that was the one he wanted.

He thought I was nuts but bought it for $500, a few people chuckled at him.

It had a broken relief valve spring ($16) and a broken shift fork ($29) which took an afternoon to fix.

Everything worked perfectly after that, or at least as perfectly as can be expected from a machine the same age as he was.

Best of luck. ....

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matthewh
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2004-07-15          90960

If I switch the quick connects, the loader control box has no hydraulic line from the tranny going to it...........................?

I think it may be the relief valve in the loader. What do I look for from the outside of the control box, so I know where to start taking stuff off?

Thanks again, I'm chipping away daily.
Matthew ....

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Murf
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2004-07-15          90965

Matt, there are two main types of adjustment screw on those kind of valves.

The first is a threaded rod that comes out the side, it has a slot in it so that it can be turned with a screwdriver, it is normally locked by a jam-nut which must be backed off to allow adjustment.

The second is a large plug that looks like the head of a big bolt, when you unscrew it the valve will be in the hole, some are adjusted with a screwdriver, some a hex-driver.

A BIG word of caution here. You CANNOT safely adjust the relief valve without a dead-ended gauge on the circuit so that you can determine the setting. You might get really lucky be 'seat-of-the-pants' experimenting, or you might get 'dirty-seat-of-the-pants'....... Be safe.


Best of luck. ....

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matthewh
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2004-07-15          90970

THANK YOU!!

I am getting more and more confident.

I took pictures of the loader control box. How can I post those. I'm still in my trial membership.

Thanks
Matt ....

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matthewh
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2004-07-15          90980

I unscrewed the threaded rod you are talking about with the lock ing nut. It contained a valve with an internal spring. I cleaned this and put it back in and noticed MORE power, but the loader still won't go up with its bucket over half full of gravel. It does however lift the front end now, and would'nt before I did this.

I need to do more tweaking.
Matt ....

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matthewh
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2004-07-16          91156

Murf, what does the threaded rod adjustment that you speak of. I'm getting close to 100% strength.

Also, how do you drain the fluid out of the loader hoses for a change.?

Thanks.

Matt ....

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TomG
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2004-07-17          91168

The swapping of hoses idea was the two cylinder hoses to the bucket for the two going to the lift. They are in the centre of the valve assembly. There would be one hose at one end for the pressure line and one or two hoses at the other end for the return. Those aren't swapped and would do damage if they were. Sounds like swapping may be unnecessary though.

There is a possibility if the valve is a single return hose type. In many setups, that type of valve puts the cylinder exhaust oil when the loader is operated into the line going to the 3ph. If the 3ph were in lift mode when the loader is operated it the load would be the the combined weight in the loader and on teh 3ph. A heavy implement on the 3ph would definitely limit loader power. Some valves of this type aren't rated for that type use and could be damaged if they were operated at the same time as a heavy 3ph lift.

Sounds like you found the loader valve relief and maybe adjustment isn't required. I wouldn't worry about draining oil for the loader. Normal operation does a pretty good job of it. ....

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oneace
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2004-07-18          91238

What you want to do to adjust the relief valve with out a gauge is loosen the jam nut and turn the threaded rod 1/16 to 1/8" of a turn at a time test the strength of the loader with a pre weighed object of some sort but since you do not have a manual for the loader you do not know what the rated capacity is. So it will Be a judgment call, continue to adjust the rod in or clock wise until desired performance is achieved. Make sure you only turn in small increments then test turn and test turn and test ect. If you turn it in too much you can damage the whole hyd. sys. ....

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beagle
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2004-07-18          91260

Have you tried swapping the bucket curl and loader arm lines? You seem to going after the relief valve pretty hard, but normally the relief valve at the loader control is for both circuits. If the bucket curl is fine, I wouldn't think the relief valve is the problem. Unless your set-up doesn't allow it, I would try the swap and see how the loader lift acts. Start simple, work your way to the complicated. ....

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matthewh
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2004-07-18          91265

i've done some shade tree adjusting on the valve already. I haven't swapped the lines, but thats my next step. I did get the loader stronger.

This is the funny thing. It seems like every time I take the valve out to inspect or clean, and put it back in the loader is stronger. This is WITHOUT any adjustments. I'm not convincing myself of this, it is happening.

I can hear the valve shhhhhhhhhhhhing when the loader tries to lift the front of the tractor. Three days ago the loader lifted the front of the tractor fine. NO adjustments and about 3 hours of use lader (running pto, little loader use, and running 3pt up and down w/ various implements) and now the loader won't lift the front of the tractor again. It seems like to me something is getting stuck somewhere. This is why I want to drain ALL the hydro fluid and start new. I was going to let the loader rest int he up position against a tree to take the pressure off and open the drain plug???

Thanks for sticking with me.
Matthew

PS i have a 4000psi guage but don't know where to test it on the loader or how or at what psi etc. since I don't have a manual. ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2004-07-19          91285

I had some hydraulic mystery problems the first summer I had my used tractor. They disappeared after changing the oil and filter and that seems a good thing to do on general principle.

Another good thing to do might be to eliminate the cylinders as sources of the problem. There are several ways without doing pressure tests. One easy but not completely adequate way is to lift big weight on from the front, disconnect all cylinder lines at the valve and see if either the bucket or lift leaks down.

I'm not sure how much good a pressure test would do in itself. They test not only both reliefs in the system but also all other components including the pump. If readings are low, diagnosing a particular problem can be complicated especially since the specs aren't known. On the other hand, you already know the pressure is low because the loader is weak. There also are some safety issues to know about.

It might be good to try to ID the valve and find a parts supplier. If Oneace's 'eyeball' method doesn't produce reliable improvements then parts likely are needed (the number of 'eyeball adjustments' should be remembered so the adjustment can be reset). It won't do much good to spend a bunch of time and aggravation diagnosing a valve problem if parts for it aren't available. ....

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Murf
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2004-07-19          91297

Mathew, you need to completely remove anything downstream of the valve except the gauge itself. Whether you include the lines or not is rather moot.

After the gauge is connected start the machine and move the valve until the gauge reads the highest point. Shut down the machine, cycle the valve fully to release any residual pressure, then adjust slowly to increase (or decrease as required) the pressure, then restart and retest, repeat the above steps until the pressure is as per the manufacturers specification. If you do not have a manual contact a dealer, or the manufacturer's tech. dept. directly, they should be able to tell you what the pressure should be.

That little threaded rod merely puts more or less pressure against the back-side of that spring, it in turn holds pressure against a valve, when the pressure behind the valve exceeds the force of the spring holding it shut, it opens releasing the excess pressure.

Best of luck.

....

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matthewh
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2004-07-19          91336

Murf,
I don't understand your first sentence!!! Do i disconect the hoses to the loader from the valve and plug the holes at the valve?

I can get the pressure specs from a dealer.

Do I connect the guage where I took one of the hoses off?

Thank you.
Matt ....

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oneace
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2004-07-19          91362

hook your gage directly or as close to directly to the valve. To check for leak by of the cyl. fully retract the cyl. then hook your gage into the base end of the cyl. with the tractor running stoke your boom lever to the lower or down position. As long as the cyl are fully retracted the gage should remain at a fairly low to no pressure. If it does move to a high pressure say 200 psi or higher then you have leak by and your cyl need repact. ....

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TomG
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2004-07-20          91414

I'm not against pressure testing so much as thinking about 'what then' questions. Murf and Oneace make good 'how to' comments. I think I drew too fine a distinction in an earlier comment. There are no components down-stream of a dead-ended gauge except through a relief valve.

For pressure testing, I'd add that a quick-connect on the gauge would enable it to be plugged into the work ports although it'd be good to shut down the tractor and relieve the pressure after taking a reading. To test the cylinders, the gauge is connected on the low-pressure side of the cylinder. The low and high-pressure sides swap depending on the direction a valve is operated. If there's doubt as to which is the high-pressure hose, a hose can be grabbed beforehand and the loader operated. The pressure hose should stiffen.

I wonder if there's a chance that some quick-connect lines were disconnected each time the relief valve was cleaned and then the loader worked better for awhile. If so, then maybe a quick-connect is the problem. ....

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Murf
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2004-07-20          91432

Sorry Matt, I left out a word, I have edited it to make a little more sense now.

As Tom mentioned, if your loader is connected to the valve by a series of quick-connect fittings you may want to just put a similar fitting on the gauge and replace the line to the FEL with the gauge.

Oneace makes a very good point, while you are at it you may as well check the cylinder operation and seals.

Start with the pressure set to factory spec. and then make sure that the cylinder seals are not allowing fluid to leak by then see if you still have a problem.

Best of luck.

....

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matthewh
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2004-07-21          91526

Thanks to all. I've got it working by adjusting relief valve?!?!?!

When I get the extra time, I'll check pressure for accuracy.

Again, thank you,
I will become a premium member.

Matthew ....

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TomG
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2004-07-21          91530

Good it seems to be fixed. If you do pressure checks by hooking a gauge into the work ports, I'd be sure to shut the tractor down and work the valve both directions before disconnecting anything. If there's pressure in either the gauge or the loader return hose when they are disconnected it'd give you a bad time reconnecting the hoses..

If you're checking with a dealer for pressure specs, you might ask about the loader valve. I'm assuming it is a single return hose type; that it is in the system ahead of the 3ph and it is a power-beyond rated valve. Some single return hose valves are PB rated and some aren't. If it isn't PB rated then the loader and 3ph shouldn't be operated at the same time. A heavy load on the 3ph could ruin the loader valve if the loader was operated during a 3ph lift. ....

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matthewh
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2004-07-23          91706

New developments. Is seems like i'm having to adjust the relief valve in more and more to keep up with the load over a period of time. I can't adjust it much more. This is getting scary.
Matt ....

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beagle
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2004-07-23          91708

I still think you are blowing fluid past a bad spool valve or seals in the cylinders. The more you crank up the pressure relief, there more degredation you are going to see. My first guess is still the cylinder seals. Probably should stop cranking the pressure relief and test the cylinders and spool valve. Good Luck.

Re-Packing cyliners isn't hard to do. ....

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oneace
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2004-07-23          91726

sounds like beagle is right the more pressure you are putting to it the4 more you are wearing away at it. ....

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matthewh
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2004-07-23          91739

Ok, I agree. Is this something I'd be able to do with out a press etc?, or should I hire a mechanic to do it. The cylinders are leaking down SLOWLY. I watched it earlier with a load in it. We're talking a 32nd of an inch per minute.

Matt. ....

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oneace
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2004-07-23          91741

I know you probably don't want to hear this but I would suggest taking your whole tractor to a reputable repair shop. They will be able to pin point exactly what is wrong with your system and replace the needed part. That may in turn save you money in the long run instead of playing hit and miss with parts. Believe me hydraulic parts are not very cheap to be replacing parts that do not need it. ....

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beagle
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2004-07-23          91747

Not sure you need to take the whole tractor to a dealer, but I would suggest taking the hydraulic arm cylinders into a reputable repair shop. They can test the cylinders and tell you if there is excessive leak-by before you have them rebuilt. If either cyliner is bad, the circuit won't hold pressure. If it is just one cylinder, they can tell you that, but I would still have them both done.

If I understood your problem correctly ealier in the thread, you have good pressure at the three point and the bucket circuit. This would usually mean that the pressure relief is ok, and you other hydraulics check out. The two most likely sources of trouble fron there would be the cylinders and the valve spool. If you were able to switch the valves between the lift and curl circuits, you could further narrow it down to the cylinders or valve by elimination. Start simple, work towards the complicated. Most often, it will be the seals in the cylinder(s), since they are exposed to abrasion from soil and grit build up on the shaft. If the shaft is scored or shows signs of corrosion, you may need to replace the cylinder. Any good hydraulic shop would be able to tell you if the cylinders should be rebuilt.

I agree you don't want to spend money on parts you don't need, but by carefully eliminating possibilities, you should be able to narrow down where the problem is.

Good luck, if you can offer some information on the condition of the shaft, type of storrage the tractor gets, and hours on the loader, it could help diagnose the source. I still suspect the cylinders and or seals. ....

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matthewh
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2004-07-23          91762

The shaft seems solid and clean. Up until I took ownership of this tractor, it sat outside..............

I don't know about the type of valve. All I've been able to find in the control box is the relief valve (which i've been adjusting), two BIG cylinders that come out of the opposite end of the threaded rod, one of which controls the joystick play when you adjust it, and the other ?????? I haven't been able to turn yet, pretty solid and looks to be made out of a dif. type of metal.

On top of the control box are two bolt heads that are identical and about 9/16. They house a spring and a valve looking object each, but don't look like serious parts (not heavy duty or anything).

The other side has a BIG bolt head that seems to be just a plug in case something else is added.

If I took the arms off, would it need to be a massey dealer that serviced them or are these things fairly universal.

I don't know about the operation of the three pt and the loader at same time, although I have used the loader while hauling around a scrape blade and a disc/harrow for ballast. I thought that this was fairly common practice.

Again, can't stress the thanks, I paid to become premium member tonight thanks to the help and the education I've received. ....

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TomG
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2004-07-24          91786

If I was doing it, I think I'd test the tractor's system relief valve without the loader in the system. But then I have a procedure and specs for my tractor, and the work shouldn't be done w/o knowing the work and safety procedures. I'd get the system pressure spec from a dealer.

If the test were done and it passed, I'd do pressure tests on each work port of the loader valve. It'd be good to know the relief pressure spec for the particular loader on that tractor, but it may be less than the system pressure spec. The loader valve specs for Ford CUT's range from 1200 psi to 2050 psi. If one or more work port pressures are low then the valve likely has a problem and the cylinders may not need to go for repair.

I don't think I'd fool much with the valve assembly unless I had a parts drawing and some background in hydraulics (The JD FOS-hydraulics manual is a decent introduction). A typical valve assembly contains about 40 parts. ....

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matthewh
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2004-07-24          91827

I've taken alot of stuff off of the control box and want to clean it out. WOuld wd40 hurt anything if I squirted it in for a while to clean out gunk?

Also, the loader was on the ground after I loaded it with 160 lbs at about 4 feet. At 3 am i was halfway to the ground. Is this bad enough to cause the weakness?

Thanks.
matt ....

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TomG
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2004-07-25          91844

I don't think I'd use WD-40. Oil contamination is a problem. There are solvents used but I don't know what works. Steam also is used. Cleaning usually is done on a disassembled valve body. I haven't had to clean valve parts but I change the oil regularly, which is important.

I wonder if you have a poorly maintained tractor. I change the oil every couple of years even though the hours usually don't call for it. Water gets into the system from condensation and it can cause pitting and scoring. You might notice if the oil is dark, rusty or has an odour. That's a sure sign it needs to be changed, and probably should be anyway.

If there's sludge in the valve body I might put an inexpensive but approved box store oil and run it for awhile and then change it again, but disposal of used oil is a problem someplaces. If there's been significant corrosion, a fair bit of work and parts may be needed to get the system up to snuff.

The leak-down (with the cylinder hoses connected to the valve?) seems a bit high, but it also may be within spec for some new JD's. I don't think the leak-down in itself explains the extreme weakness. However, it's not a definitive test and not a substitute for pressure tests. Some professional attention may seem like a bargain since many hours of tinkering might be required to figure it out. ....

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I am frustrated with my loader and need advice

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matthewh
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 57 sanford, nc
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2004-07-25          91852

I don't mind hauling it to someone, but I don't trust the dealer guys here. They seem dishonest and uncaring. Tried to sell me an oil filter for $25.

Actually......did sell it to me for that since I needed it that day.lol

I'm just trying to get something done on my own to hopefully get it right.

I thought of spraying simple green in the front side and flushing it out of th back side. It won't get in the hoses because the only hoses still on are the ones to the loader, and they come up fromt he valve.

I am just scared of blowing it dry with compressed air as I don't know what loose parts are in there.

By the way, what do you use (if anything) of hose threads to prevent leakage?

Matt ....

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I am frustrated with my loader and need advice

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oneace
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 1490 south central pa
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2004-07-25          91871

$25 is not out of the question for an oil filter from a dealer especially if it has the factory name on it.Some times you can get lucky and find an aftermarket filter like fleet guard for less.

For sealing fitting the only time you really need to use sealant is for pipe thread fitting. You can tell if it is pipe thread by the tapered threaded area. If it has a 37 degree flare fitting or jic no sealant is necessary. ....

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I am frustrated with my loader and need advice

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matthewh
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 57 sanford, nc
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2004-07-25          91887

What is jic and if I do need sealant would teflon tape work???? ....

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I am frustrated with my loader and need advice

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oneace
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 1490 south central pa
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2004-07-26          91977

a 37 degree flare fitting IS. jic TEFLON TAPE WILL WORK ....

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