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 06-29-1999, 00:00 Post: 5587
Marty



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I am a little embarassed to put these questions up here, but I haven't been able to find the answer myself. What does it mean when a PTO is described as "live?" Is there another alternative? Also, when someone refers to "remotes" in an ad, what are they describing? Sorry to bother the group with this. I can take my answer directly, if others are not interested.






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 06-29-1999, 00:00 Post: 5589
Ken



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A tractor with a live PTO has a two stage clutch . Partially depressing the clutch stops the tractors forward motion , but continues applying power to the PTO. Further depressing the clutch removes power from the PTO as well as the tractor's transmission. A tractor without a live PTO can be pushed forward by the implement's PTO shafts turning and tranferring motion thru the transmission. This can get you in to a dangerous situation if you are close to a fence or a ditch, etc. You can buy an overrunning clutch from a tractor supply house that fits between your PTO shaft and the implement that prevents the energy transfer when you engage the clutch. Hope this helps.






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 06-29-1999, 00:00 Post: 5595
lsheaffer



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 Back to Basics: remotes

Remotes refers to remote hydraulics outlets. If there are two remotes then two different remote cylinders can be hooked up at the same time.






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 06-30-1999, 00:00 Post: 5610
Roger L.



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I'd like to expand on Ken's explanation. I see a live PTO as simply being a PTOthat is engaged and clutched separately from the tractors transmission clutch.Sometimes it is called an "independent PTO", because it is independent of thetravel speed of the tractor. As far as I know, A live PTO and an independent PTOare talking about the same thing. One advantage to a live PTO is that the PTO can rotate while the tractor is ingear but standing still. Now you can bring the PTO driven implement up to speedand then gently engage the regular transmission clutch and move off across thefield. Your PTO is working at full efficiency even while the tractor is just starting to move. Alternately, if you are mowing and get to a tough bunch of weeds, you can slip the clutch on the tractor while keeping the RPM's at fullspeed. Now you are slowing down, but the PTO device is moving at full speed. Sometimes this is a two stage clutch like Ken describes....other times it can bea complete separate clutch petal like on my JD. Some hydrostats use a separateclutch pedal as well, while others use a switch and a electro-magnetic clutch.I prefer a separate foot clutch so that if the PTO load is heavy you canbring it up to speed slowly. My Yanmar 336D probably has the ultimate in a live PTO, since it has a power-shift transmission. This enables it to change gear ratios under full load.As I do so, the tractor changes its speed across the field, but the PTO isconstant at 540 RPM - or at whatever RPM I've set it for. As you have probably guessed by now, when a PTO is not independent-(live)then it is referred to as being transmission-driven. Basically, this type of PTOonly spins when the tractor is moving, and it doesn't get up to speed until thetractor is moving at full speed in that gear. Additionally, most all will alsodrive the PTO when you are stationary and in neutral with the clutch out. You might use this mode for running a generator or hydraulic pump. The live independent PTO with a good separate clutch lever is the besttype. If you are going to do any mowing I would try to get this feature. Roger L






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 06-30-1999, 00:00 Post: 5612
lsheaffer



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 Back to Basicsdiff between live & independent

A live pto worrks off of the clutch. When the pedal is raised half way the pto is engaged. An independent pto is activated by a seperate control, independent of the clutch pedal. Both use a 2 stage clutch.






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 07-02-1999, 00:00 Post: 5672
Roger L.



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 Back to Basicsdiff between live & independent

Uh...maybe so. But then how do you explain my JD that has a separate controlfor engaging the PTO and a separate clutch that does nothing except controlthe PTO? Neither the main clutch or the PTO clutch is a two stage. There is no need for a two stage clutch in this very common type of system. In fact, my Yanmar doesn't have a two-stage clutch either. In its system, when the PTO lever is engaged (with the clutch in) the foot clutch becomes a PTOclutch exclusively, and the power shift lever is used to clutch the tractor. The important thing is that for most any PTO operation you want to havecontrol of the PTO independent of the driving the tractor - however you get it. Roger L






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 07-02-1999, 00:00 Post: 5694
lsheaffer



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 Back to Basicsdiff between live & independent

I'm not famialiar with what your JD set up is, but I do know the Yanmars. The Yanmar powershift transmission is hydrauliccally activated. It has a single stage clutch & does not have an independent or live pto. It has a transmission driven pto. When a person steps on the clutch the pto & transmission quit transmitting power.A couple examples of live pto would be the JD2030 & Ford960. A JD4010 & Ford8000 have independent pto. The Ford Select-o-speed transmission was similiar to the Yanmar powershift. Ford didn't call it a clutch, they called it an inching pedal, but the ones we had had independent pto.






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 07-03-1999, 00:00 Post: 5702
Roger L.



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Len, I said that I wasn't sure how people were defining the terminology oflive vs independent PTO, and I like your definition of live as being the typethat has a two stage clutch, and independent as being the type that has a separate clutch exclusively for the PTO. At least this is how I understand whatyou are saying. Correct me if I am wrong. Of the two, I prefer the independent type, because I see it as being moreversatile. In operation, I don't know if it makes all that much difference - but I sure feel better when I can clutch the PTO independently without worryingif I'm going to go OOPS! on the clutch and have the tractor suddenly take off. But now you raise the question of the transmission-driven PTO. Lets leave the powershift Yanmar for a moment, because it is wierd and different. Do youagree that the least versatile type of PTO is the type that is transmission driven in such a way that when you take off from a standing start, the PTO doesn'tget up to speed until the tractor gets up to speed in that gear? With this typeof PTO (my least favorite type) the motor has to pull the implement up to speedas it gets the tractor going at the same time. This type of PTO is a bigdrawback when mowing, tilling, or haying....and this is the type of PTO that Icall "transmission driven". Perhaps my terminology is wrong. I could have justas easily called it "ground driven". But to me that means something else again.I've had these tractors in the past, and got along with them OK, but if I werebuying a new tractor today I would pass on any that worked in this manner. Areany like this even made today? Anyone know? Back to the powershift Yanmar. It would be the ugly transmission driventype if I clutched the tractor to get going, but I don't do this. I don't clutchthe tractor in order to change ground speed when the PTO is going. It is not necessary, and as you point out, this would stop the tractor and the PTO both. What I do is to powershift into another gear or into neutral if I want to stop.The PTO is still going because I haven't touched the clutch. Then to get goingI just powershift into first and off I go. The PTO has not changed speed throughall of this. The Yanmar system is different from other compacts. Roger L






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 07-03-1999, 00:00 Post: 5715
lsheaffer



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 Back to Basicsdiff between live & independent

Internally the independent & 2 stage are pretty much alike. They both have 2 clutches attached to the flywheel. the one clutch's output shaft is really a hollow tube with the other clutch's output shaft inside of it. The only difference is how they are activated. The live is activated by the clutch pedal & the independent by an independent leyer.The 3rd type of pto is the transmission drivenI agree that the transmission driven is the least versatile for the reasons you mention.I don't know for a fact that any are made today, but would guess that maybe some of the Chinese tractors might be.Ground driven brings up a 4th type of clutch. As i remember a 981 Ford Select-o speed also had a ground priven position. I also agree with your thoughts on the Yanmar powershift. I try ordering models with the powershift, because it is can be operated like it has an independent pto. I have 3 powershifts coming this week on a load of 8.






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 07-04-1999, 00:00 Post: 5733
Gene Windell



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 Back to Basicsdiff between live & independent

The Yanmar powershift transmission works much like driving an automobile with an automatic transmission, but shifting the gears manually. You can shift up and down through the forward gears without depressing the clutch, and stop and reverse direction by shifting through neutral without depressing the clutch. This allows the implement to continue turning at full speed because the clutch hasn't been engaged. Because it is not necessary to engage the clutch to change ground speeds or stop and reverse direction, the clutch can be used exclusively to control the PTO. By use of this scheme, Yanmar achieved the functionality of a live PTO with what is essentially a transmission driven PTO.






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Discussion Boards > Active Subjects > Messages as Posted > Loaders Forum

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Gene Windell 1 | Ken 1 | lsheaffer 4 | Marty 1 | Roger L. 3 |




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