Loader valve manufacture help: Loaders  -- Tractor Attachments Implements 3ph Discussion Forum and Review Loader valve manufacture help: Loaders -- Tractor Attachments Implements 3ph Discussion Forum

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 12-11-2002, 20:53 Post: 46038
danfay



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 Loader valve manufacture help

Hi folks,
I could use some assistance should anyone have any ideas. I have a Ford 1710 tractor with a Dunham Lehr 120 loader. I recently purchased a Bush hog 762 backhoe and would like to utilize the power beyond plug on the loader valve to plumb in the hoe. Here's my snag. I can't locate a manufactures name for the loader valve, and can't get the power beyond fittings without knowing who made the valve.. Numbers are present on the tag, but no name. I would assume Dunham Lehr purchased the loader valves from another company, but I dont know who. Did Dunham Lehr utilize a sole supplier for their valves? Any hints? Of course they are no longer in business so I can't call the dealer. I know this is a very broad question, but any ideas would be greatly appreceated.
Thanks, Dan.






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 12-12-2002, 07:34 Post: 46048
TomG

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 Loader valve manufacture help

When you say 'power-beyond plug,' I assume that there's a hose there now that goes from the loader valve to the return port on the hydraulic manifold block. It sounds a bit like the situation I have with my 1710. The valve is British made and I haven't really tried to find a replacement or parts. The valve fortunately has a third control valve section for a rear outlet and I use that outlet with the control valve held open with a bungee cord to run my hoe.

If I want to rig up a PB connection, I'd probably pattern it after the JD PB kit for their hoes.
The kit basically is installing a removable section of hose in the PB line with quick-connectors. When the hoe is mounted, the short hose is removed and the hoe is hooked in. The quick-connectors are a bit special so the hoe can't be connected backwards, which means that the connectors on the hoe aren't standard either. The connectors also may pull apart less easily than standard types or be protected somehow. this kit assumes that the hoe valve is a two rather than three hose valve and all of the few hoe valves I've seen have only one inlet and one return port.

A hydraulics shop should be able to make this type of hook up from the existing PB hose. It should be just a matter of cutting it and adding connector fittings. The valve end would stay the same and should just screw back into the valve.

My rig works OK for my use but I would like a second rear outlet. I'd also like a regenerative fast-dump feature on the bucket circuit. There have been some pretty good sounding sales from both Prince and Cross mentioned here recently and I have been thinking about an entirely new valve assembly.






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 12-12-2002, 23:36 Post: 46075
marklugo



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 Loader valve manufacture help

There is no good answer for your problem. In training school, they discussed the limitations of the 1710 and similar series problems. You have a diverter block on the lower right hand side of the housing. It has a plug. Or should have. Depending on how it is plumbed. You should able to gain pressure there. It has a screwdriver slot to allow it to be turned to redirect the flow of fluid. It will overheat your pump and cause back pressure on your loader(lock-up) many times when you plumb it the way you suggest. Unfortunately, doing it the "right way you will have to turn the slotted head on the valve when you want to return to normal lift function. I have put more than one pump on a 1710 because of poor plumbing. This is the recommended method because of the open center system. The Dunham valves allowed a lot of seepage and created backpressure on the valve itself. No remedy available. Also there was a problem in the tthe quick couplers for the loader. One spring would get weak, presumably from working heat and allow the flow to the cylinders to be frozen. This problem was compounded when additional attatchments were added. Elimination of the couplers reduced heat and problems. Quick detatch will be lost.

The best solution is to trade the hoe for a Mazzotti type with a self contained pump and resevoir. around $4695. It is a better built hoe than a Bhog. Bhog doesn't make their own. See liink to site.Ag Equipment USA. Good luck!






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 12-13-2002, 06:42 Post: 46082
TomG

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 Loader valve manufacture help

It sounds like the Dunham valves and connectors might be suspect. However, I'm not sure if the problems described result from the Dunham valves or the 1710 hydraulics.

I imagine that my loader has been plumbed from the block and using the block return port for the entire history of the tractor and I've never changed the diverter valve from the auxiliary system position. The loader valve is a PB type with a TANK or low-pressure return to the sump for cylinder exhaust oil. This type valve assembly, or a valve with exhaust galleys rated for system pressure, should be used since there is the possibility of simultaneous use of the loader and 3ph.

I suppose that running the PB flow through loader valve and then through the 3ph to the sump does have more orifices etc. for the oil to flow through than a straight return to the sump from the loader valve. Extra parts in the line would create more back-pressure but I haven't had any heating problems. I did have a few odd lockup type problems when till I jiggled valves etc. but those haven't happened since I changed hydraulic oil.

Powering my hoe from a valve controlled outlet that is held open is a quick and dirty solution. However, my 'poor man's' PB hook up has worked for me for almost 5-years. Maybe a bigger hoe than I have would produce heating problems. Incidentally, with my particular loader valve, return oil from the hoe would flow back to the sump through the loader valve TANK line rather than through the 3ph.

Even though my plumbing has worked for me, it does sound like there's learning with reference to maintenance statistics here. Perhaps I am riding on a thin-edge before failure in terms of the stats, but I really haven't seen any problems.







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 12-18-2002, 19:55 Post: 46274
danfay



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 Loader valve manufacture help

Thanks for the reply guys!
When I refer to the PB plug in the loader valve, that's exactly what it is, a plug in the PB port. I was wishing to follow the plumbing instructions supplied by Bush Hog which supplies pressure to the loader valve first, utilizing the PB pport from the loader to supply the hoe, installing a "T" in the return to sump line, but without the PB fittings for the valve, kind of hit a road block.
At the present, I'm having to hook up hoses to which ever item (loader - back hoe) I'm using. Pain in the rear, and plays heck on the gloves !!
I've checked on self contained (pump-tank) units which they are avalable, but being the poor boy I am, I need to check all options. I guess at last resort, can A diverter valve be used to direct flow to the item being used while shutting the other off?, or how about ball pressure valves? Heck , I don't know, what do you guys say ?!?






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 12-19-2002, 06:33 Post: 46292
TomG

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 Loader valve manufacture help

I'm still trying to get my mind around the PB port plug. The one thing I've come to understand is that valves come in endless variety and it may be a feature I've never heard of. It is of course best to follow manufactures' instructions, provided they can be understood. Maybe the following long ramble will help understanding but maybe add to confusion.

My problem is that an open centred system link most compacts (including 1710's) circulate oil continuously, and there has to be a return path to the sump. For an operational loader that path goes from an outlet port on the valve directly to the sump or to the return port on the manifold block.

Many valves have 'power-beyond' capability and there are two return ports. Normally one is called the PB port and it carries the open-centre oil flow. In both type valves, there would have to be a hose connection to all outlet ports for the system to work because there wouldn't be a return path for the pump flow, cylinder exhaust oil (TANK) or both. That's why I can't understand the idea of a plug in the PB port. Some after-market valves are supplied that can be used with either open or closed systems and probably have plugs in the PB port for closed centre use.

In general, t-fittings for power-beyond lines don't work because there's always side open to the sump so pressure can't be developed. T-fittings do work for lines that go directly to the sump such as TANK lines because there's no valve downstream to close the line and create system pressure on an upstream valve's exhaust galley.

The basic plumbing is to find which hose on the loader valve carries the PB flow and splice the hoe in series with that line. The loader side goes to the hoe input and the hoe output goes to the return side. Connected in this way, the hoe has to remain in the system to complete the return path or be replaced by short length of hose.

However, there is an issue here. Many hoe valves only have one return port. If the return goes back to the manifold block, then it is upstream from the 3ph and could be damaged by high pressure were the 3ph lifting a heavy load. Some single return line valves are rated for this application and some aren't. Ones that aren't should return directly to the sump, although they could be t-fitted into an existing TANK line. An alternative is accept some risk by assuming that the 3ph will never be in lift mode while the hoe is in operation.

I guess that swapping connections would be messy without quick-connect fittings, which PB lines don't usually have. I think the JD kit approach of splicing a hoe into the loader PB line with quick-connects would work and so would my approach of running the from a valve controlled circuit. However, in either case there are power-beyond pressure from any down-stream valve and some heat/flow issues.

There are things called hydraulic-multipliers that can divert flow to two or more valve assemblies. They are fancy diverter valves that come in either manual or electric control. I don't think they're exactly cheap though.






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 12-19-2002, 07:52 Post: 46297
slowrev



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 Loader valve manufacture help

In reference to Toms post above. Northern Hydraulic has a manual selector valve that swithes both supply and return. 1/2 inch = 79.99 3/4 inch = 99.99. According to the specs the 1/2 inchone is rated for 20 gpm and the 3/4 inch one is rated for 40 gpm, that should handle almost anything. Just remember if you tap/divert the supply before it has gotten to the pressure relief valve, you will have to add one on the new circuit.

This would seem to be a good way to tap a log splitter or the like into an existing hydraulic system.

Happy hydraulicing Smile






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 12-19-2002, 19:03 Post: 46313
danfay



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 Loader valve manufacture help

My goodness!
What a can of worms I opened here.
Well, I'm getting some ideas, and I'd rather bug you guys than burn the pump up on my trusty old tractor!
Tom, thanks for the patience ! Let's see if I can do better. Basicly the loader is plumbed as so.... I belive you too own a 1710, so I'm sure the output point on the tractor is about the same, lower right somewhat in the area of the right foot board. From there the pressure line goes into the loader valve. On the valve itself there are four hyd. hoses that operate the loader functions, and lastly, the return hose that returns right next to where the pressure line originates by the lower right foot board. So what I have is a pressure line, a return line, and the 4 loader function lines. Now (hope I explain this right) on the side of the loader valve is a plug, (approx. 1/2"Wink yeah right. This plug is in an additional port and is labeled "PB". I was told by an implement dealer that the PB port is where I should originate the pressure line for the backhoe. (I hope that made sense!!) Once I heard of the PB port, I investigated the plumbing instructons supplied by Bush hog, and it also showed to originate the pressure line from there. The whole PB thing is new to me so if I sound like an idiot, (well my wife may agree).
Thanks again guys, I did get some scetches via email regarding some plumbing ideas, so I need to look those over, and check into the northern hyd. valves. So many choices, so little time !!






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 12-20-2002, 05:55 Post: 46330
TomG

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 Loader valve manufacture help

Most valve assemblies have codes stamped or cast into their inlet and outlet section. Typical codes for a PB valve inlet section are 'IN' or 'P.' One of the two ports on the outlet section is coded 'PB' and the other often is 'TANK' but may not be coded.

On my valve, it's the PB port line that goes to the return port on the manifold block. The other port is not coded and goes directly to the sump.

I think my valve is basic and conventional, and as I noted, the system wouldn't work unless the PB port is connected to a return path. I can speculate that your valve has convertible capability and could be used in a PB or non-PB application. I've never heard of such a feature but that doesn't mean much. If that's what it is, then I assume that attaching a fitting to the PB port reconfigures the valve and the unlabeled port becomes the TANK return port. If so, then it probably would take a special fitting for the PB port. This is pure speculation on my part.

It's a good suggestion and the diverter from Northern bears checking--especially since the company that marketed their valves as 'Hydraulic Multipliers' may not be around any more. I would find out the physical dimensions of the valve from Northern before leaping. Valves rated at 20 - 40 gpm can be very large.






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Discussion Boards > Active Subjects > Messages as Posted > Loaders Forum

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danfay 3 | marklugo 1 | slowrev 1 | TomG 4 |




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