FEL Leak Down: Loaders  -- Tractor Attachments Implements 3ph Discussion Forum and Review FEL Leak Down: Loaders -- Tractor Attachments Implements 3ph Discussion Forum

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 02-01-2011, 12:26 Post: 176655
AbbasChild



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 FEL Leak Down

I have a NH T2210 with FEL (240TL) (146 hours) that has had problems with bucket leak down while operating the tractor at working rpms. It only affects the bucket, which if held in the fully curled position, after 20 minutes will have un-curled (dumped) by about 3-4 inches. This occurs loaded (manure or rocks) or empty. Much more noticable (may occur quicker) when going over rougher terrian. I had the tractor back to the dealer for some other issues and they "made some adjustments" to the FEL. That seemed to help for a day or 2, but within a total of 10 hours of operating the tractor, it seems to be back to where I started.

It does not necessarily affect the functioning of the tractor--although it is annoying to have to curl the bucket full of manure so it does not drop out all over. The dealer spoke to NH and was told that there is "normal/tolerable leak down." This being my first tractor, I do not know what is "right" but I would think that operating the tractor at 2400rpm, that bucket should not move.

Any thoughts? What information can I take back to the dealer that may help solve this issue for me?

Mike






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 02-01-2011, 13:17 Post: 176657
greg_g



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Well, it sounds like cylinder bypass. And it only takes one of the two cylinders leaking down to cause this. But is it really an issue? I mean, will losing 3-4 inches of bucket curl over a 20 minute period actually affect your work?

What I'm trying to say, is that it may not be worth pursuing aggressively at this point in time. You have officially recorded your concern with the dealer, they have officially recorded "corrective action".

If it is cylinder leakdown, it always gets worse - never better. So keep an eye on it. When it gets to the point of affecting your work - but BEFORE the warranty expires - take the issue back up with the dealer

//greg//






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 02-01-2011, 14:20 Post: 176660
AbbasChild



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Greg, thanks for the input. Your response is exactly what I was trying to figure out--how much to persue it. Moving sand/gravel this past summer it was not an issue covering short distances. I am trying to be sure I am not missing a bigger issue. Like you said, other than being annoying at times, it really does not affect my ability to do the work I bought the tractor for. Thanks!
Mike






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 02-01-2011, 15:13 Post: 176661
auerbach



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The engine speed is irrelevant for holding position; it will self-dump the same even with the engine off. It's an internal leak in either the controller or the bucket cylinders. They all do this; the questions are how much is acceptable and is it worsening.

For the answers, standardize the conditions, like the arms and the bucket-top horizontal, shut down, and using a level and a ruler measure the drop after, say, 30 min. That's your reference to compare in the future. Try to get a similar model, maybe on the dealer's lot, to compare.








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 02-02-2011, 11:34 Post: 176666
AbbasChild



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 FEL Leak Down

Thanks, Auerbach. I will try that. And it will give me a reference point. If "they all do it" I feel a little better, than accepting something that is not suppose to happen and just tolerating it.

Great ideas--thanks again!
Mike






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 02-02-2011, 14:03 Post: 176667
greg_g



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Quote:
Originally Posted by AbbasChild | view 176666
If "they all do it" I feel a little better

In my experience, they don't "all do it". I've got a 7 year old Koyker 160 loader (60" bucket) on my 35hp CUT that holds pressure as good as the day I bought it. And I'll still hold to the position that it shouldn't on a 146 hour tractor either. Keep that dealer honest !!

//greg//






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 02-02-2011, 20:46 Post: 176671
hardwood

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 FEL Leak Down

I don't want to take sides here to start an argument but I'll have to agree they dont "All" do it. With enough use and normal wear yes then they all will. Whether it is enough to be a problem is up to the judgement owner.
My 430 loader boom or the bucket curl on the 4310 Deere doesn't settle.
Anytime something else isn't on the three point my box blade is, I have a bad habit of leaving it up. I think it could sit for six months and never settle.
My Deere No. 48 backhoe attachment is a different story. It goes on the same tractor but has it's own set of hydraulic valves. The boom has settled since day one, warm day, cold day, full bucket, empty bucket, it don't matter. While using it it isn't enough to even notice, but leave it sit with the boom up and it goes all the way down in probably ten minutes. I don't know if the others do it or not, I just never bothered to see what was wrong.
Frank.






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 02-03-2011, 11:49 Post: 176683
earthwrks

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 FEL Leak Down

If your tractor is anything like my NH, it has what is called a regen(erative) bucket curl system. Basically, according to the service manual, fluid that is on one side of the cylinder is added to the other side to increase flow i.e. curl cycle time. This allows quicker cycle times (at the cost of loss of usable hydraulic pressure) since the pump is lacking enough flow to prevent cavitation when the bucket curls or uncurls. The diagram in the manual shows a check valve, but typical NH poorly written texts and pictures it doesn't show where it is--I have a hunch it's on the loader control valve and may look like a cap head bolt or fitting. That could be bad. Worth a try.

I would call Les the service tech at www.messicks.com at extension #123. Sorry I don't have Messick's no., but go to their site and it's at the top of the webpage.






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 02-03-2011, 14:07 Post: 176684
Murf

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 FEL Leak Down

It's been my experience, at least in our fleet, that the leak-down rate has more to do with hours of operation than anything else.

That is, the more hours of experience the operator has, the less likely leak-down is.

In every case I've seen it was a seal issue. There is no pressure relief valve in the plumbing of the FEL. Things like aggressive digging into a pile of material puts enormous pressures on the system and the weakest link is the seals

Now that's not to say that things like OEM tolerances and such don't enter into it, but I've seen lots of machines with no leak-down for years like Greg's. Then a new operator gets on it, in a month it has a leak-down issue.


Best of luck.






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 02-04-2011, 12:28 Post: 176687
AbbasChild



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 FEL Leak Down

Thanks again for all of the interest and input. Thanks for the name at messicks (I have not yet called there).

I have conducted the little test that auerbach suggested. Here are the results:

Time Bucket Lift Arm Difference (Bucket only) 0 0 0 0
30 -2 -0.5 -1.5
60 -3.25 -1 -2.25
120 -5 -1.5 -3.5

Time is in minutes; distance in inches from baseline. "Bucket" is the total drop of the height of the FEL meassured from the from "cutting" edge; "Bucket only" is subtracting out the drop of the lift arms. The three point lifts arms did not move. If I heard correctly, this should not change if the engine is running, correct?

Mike






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Discussion Boards > Active Subjects > Messages as Posted > Loaders Forum

Thread 176655 Filter by Poster:
AbbasChild 10 | auerbach 5 | BoonvilleKid 2 | crunch 1 | earthwrks 2 | greg_g 7 | hardwood 1 | Murf 1 |




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