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cutter
Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 1307 The South Shore of Lake Ontario, New York
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2004-01-27          75250

This should generate a number of theories. I am trying to help my brother-in-law repair his snow blower. He has four kids, a huge old house with a heat bill to match and no $$. A few days ago he was unloading his 60's(??) era snow blower from his truck and the ramp fell, allowing the machine to drop a foot or two to the ground, but it landed on it's wheels and appeared no harm done.

The machine has a 7hp Tecumseh horizontal shaft engine that ran like new but it will not start since the fall. The most it will do is backfire through the carb. I have pulled the head, checked the valves, changed the plug, checked the points and re-gapped, cleaned and adjusted the carb settings to initial starting points and am running out of ideas.

The key-way on the fly wheel is straight and true with no play and it appears that no matter how little or much fuel the machine gets it will not fire. I even tried a shot of starting fluid with a few drops of gas after cleaning and reassembling the engine tonight. The spark seems to be adequate and I verified the firing point as being at the start of the down-stroke while the head was off.

I am puzzled and my bad shoulder is sore from pulling on the rope! Not being a fan of that particular brand of engine makes me all the more frustrated.

Any ideas would be appreciated!

Thanks,

Cutter


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Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2004-01-27          75252

What did it do when the ether was used? ....

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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2004-01-27          75257

kinda sounds like it has a stuck valve. ....

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cutter
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2004-01-28          75268

Art it back fired through the carb. I checked the valves Chief, that was my first thought. It appears they are operating correctly. I cleaned the seats when I had the head off. Still a mystery! ....

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Chief
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2004-01-28          75278

If it back fired through the carb.; sure sounds to me like a valve is not closing all the way. Have you run a compression check? That should conclusively identify that problem if it exists. ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2004-01-28          75279

I'm guessing that the backfiring was when the starter fluid was used. I'm also guessing that you think its compression is normal. Strange! Compression, fuel and spark usually equals starting unless the timing is radically off.

I imagine it's a magneto ignition. I'd try cleaning the gap and flywheel. I'd also try gapping a plug much narrower than normal. Loosening a spark plug is an old M/C mechanic's trick--especially for testing old Brit 441's. Air gap resistance is higher under compression. A weak spark that fires in the air may do nothing under compression.

Another old trick is cupping a hand over the carb bowl. I say 'a hand' because I probably wouldn't want it to my hand if was backfiring through the carb, and especially not after using starter fluid unsuccessfully. As you probably know repeated unsuccessful use of starter fluid may create safety problems and also break an engine.
....

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Billy
Join Date: Oct 1999
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2004-01-28          75283

Could it be when the engine had the big jolt, it dislodged some gunk in the fuel tank?

Dirty or old gas can make it do some weird things, like backfiring. ....

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AC5ZO
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2004-01-28          75302

I would stay away from the ether. If the spark and compression are good, a few drops of gasoline applied to the carburetor throat should get the engine to attempt to start. It may not run, but if it seems to want to start, it could be a fuel problem. If that works, then the carburetor probably needs cleaning.

As others have said, it sounds like a stuck or leaking intake valve to me. You may also have two things going on. It would not surprise me if you did need to clean the carburetor, but the drop from the truck could have done something too. Turn the engine over with the head off and see if the valve timing looks OK, but only after you have confirmed that fuel/carburetor is not the culprit. ....

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cutter
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2004-01-28          75327

Here is a list of checks I have done:

Had head off, cleaned and inspected. While it was off I watched the operation of the valves and in fact checked to see that the plug was firing on the down-stroke after the intake stroke.

I removed the inspection plate and examined the valve springs and lifter clearance in operation. All appears to be good.

I cleaned the flywheel, adjusted the gap in the magneto with .015 stock (a guess at the gap adjustment, sort of an average among various engines). I set the points at .020 after determining the timing, again a guess as there are no markings on the flywheel or block to reference.

The unit has a new plug set at .035 and the spark appears strong. I will try the gap adjustment Tom suggested.

I sparingly used starting fluid knowing of the inherent danger of this stuff. When I shot a small amount it the carb intake it backfired. After I performed all the above operations, I dripped a bit of gas into the plug hole and tried to start it. All I got is a backfire through the carb again. I am running out of ideas, the valves are no different than they were when it was running except perhaps a bit cleaner.


....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2004-01-29          75352

Dang--this is sounding pretty frustrating Cutter!

If you're pretty sure the valves are seating on the compression stroke and it's firing around TDC (and nowhere else) about the only thing that comes to mind this morning is valve timing. I don't know how it's done on this engine but I have heard of old automobile engines jumping a gear or two on seriously worn timing chains. ....

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cutter
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2004-01-29          75355

It is frustrating Tom! You mentioned firing no where else, it fires on each revolution of the fly wheel. I am going to try your spark plug trick tonight. Had to help the wife work on her homework last night, did not get much time to spend on it. I am leaning toward a spark or compression problem now, may stop to purchase a gauge on the way home.

Thanks for the help ....

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DRankin
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2004-01-29          75356

Did it knock something off the flywheel when it fell?

I am not a small engine mechanic but it seems to me there must be a magnet or something similar that tells it when to fire. ....

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cutter
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2004-01-29          75372

I have a suggestion from a friend that repairs small engines. He insists the carb is out of wack. Don't see how that would stop it from firing, but I will tear it down and look. My brother in law said he already did that, but if it looks like the rest of his engine repair, I should check it out! ....

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Chief
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2004-01-29          75377

You can always try the ole' WD-40 trick to get it running. Try starting it on WD-40 and if it starts and runs (you will have to continually goose it with a shot as it runs); you may indeed have a carb. problem. It should NOT be firing back through the carb. This is indicative of a stuck valve or severely messed up timing. Verify your timing and then try starting it with the WD-40. If it still fires back through the carb. I would strongly suggest performing a compression check. I am still thinking an intake valve is not closing completely for any of a number of reasons. Way out of adjustment? Timing off? Valve sticking? Something lodge in valve seat? I may be way off track here but I would definitely eliminate this possibility. Another thing that is gonna really make you feel stupid as it did me too is; Did the idiots at the factory or refurbishment plant place the choke, run, off stickers or markings on the carb backwards?????? This happened to me with a weed eater AND a Generac 6500 watt generator. The guy at the authorized Generac/Briggs & Straton dealer showed me the WD-40 trick. He struggled with the damn engine just like I did and verified, air, fuel, and spark. Still would not run. He shot some WD-40 in the carb. and she fired right up. That is when he figured out the choke, run, off stickers were backwards from some bonehead at the factory. Good luck! ....

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Lenarguy
Join Date: Dec 2003
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2004-01-29          75410

If all of the mentioned things are OK, I would check the needle valve in the carburetor. If it has a viton seat and it is old I have had several of them stick. If you remove the carb. bowl and let the float hang gas should run out, if it doesn't then most likely the needle is stuck. The only real fix for this is replacing it with a new one, anything else you try is a temporary repair.
Another possibility, if you used starting fluid, you might try is remove the spark plug and dump about one cap full of new motor oil in the cylinder, reinstall the plug and try it. The starting fluid has tendency of washing the cylinder wall down and loosing compression. Do this in a well ventilated area, if it does start it will be smokey for a bit. ....

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cutter
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2004-01-29          75414

Great ideas here! Just arrived home and had to dig the mailbox out again, had a nasty-gram in there from the carrier. Now I thought it was in pretty good shape, totally out of the snow bank with the door about a foot from the edge of the road, but they want the whole runway (read shoulder of the road) plowed. I clean the damn thing every weekend, don't need their form letters. We have had so much snow here my tractor will not pile it any higher, had to start moving it down the "runway". Probably should have held back a bit on all that Christmas tip!

Now that's off my chest, I will go for the carb. I just have a hard time believing that no matter how badly it is screwed up the thing won't fire up for a few revs with gas poured in the cylinder. I did check the walls, the thing is old but not much use, not even a ridge from wear. Since it is tipped forward while I am working on it, plenty of oil on the cylinder wall so that is not a concern now. This is the second time today the bowl and needle have been mentioned, hope that is the culprit. Thanks again everyone! ....

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DennisCTB
Join Date: Nov 1998
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2004-01-30          75452

I heard that WD-40 used to use Propane as one of the key ingredients years ago. I think they stopped when a couple of cans exploded by spraying onto a hot engine causing severe burns over 80% of the body.

Don't know what they use now, but it also makes a great melted Crayon remover on car carpet. I would keep it away from heat or spark, so as not to be simultaneously spraying and cranking an engine while holding the can.

Dennis
TractorPoint ....

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kubotaguy
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 360 Shepherdstown, WV
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2004-01-30          75475

I'm at a complete loss as it appears everything has been gone over. Load it back up in the pick-up and drop it out of the back again. Maybe it will knock everything back right and run!!!! That's about the only thing left to try. ....

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shortmagnum
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2004-01-30          75477

kubotaguy, that sounds like a plan. He'd better turn it upside down though before he drops it. ....

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cutter
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2004-01-30          75498

Not quite everything, I have not rebuilt the rebuild job the BIL did on the carb prior to my getting involved. Never got to it last night, will be done tomorrow, and if it looks like his other engine work will take me longer to fix what he did than rebuild it.

Now Kubotaguy, if it will not start after that, I will drag it over to the boat launch, push it onto the ice and pleasure as it slowly sinks each day as the weather warms.

Never have liked that brand engine anyway! ....

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Art White
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2004-01-30          75503

Try opening the points. That will retard the spark. what color is the plug turning? It could be a hung valve but you wouldn't pull hard at all as it would have no compression! ....

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cutter
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2004-01-30          75517

Art the plug is new, that was changed by the BIL before I got the machine into my shop. I see my thread has moved, I did not see a topic for small engine repair prior to this! ....

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TomG
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2004-01-31          75539

I was wondering about plug condition myself. The longer this goes on the more obscure and unlikely my ideas are likely to become. This morning's inspiration is wondering if tilting the engine forward to work on it might be putting a bunch of oil on top of the pistons. Our neighbour has a permanent yard sale. He buys 'well used' small engine stuff and trailers it back here to sell. I remember he bought too many once and had to tip them on edge to get them all in his trailer. He had real problems starting one of them and it made huge oil smoke clouds when it finally did start. The sooner we get this solved the sooner my mornings will be free of obscure theorizing.

A lot of my motorcycle buz was rescuing bikes from long histories of 'my friend knows how to fix them.' I wouldn't underrate the BIL factor. ....

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cutter
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2004-01-31          75602

You are something Tom, enjoy your coffee tomorrow morning! I got it started today after tearing the carb apart. Don't ask me what was wrong because I don't know for sure, although I did find a small (minute) amount of debris in the jet tube. What puzzles me the most is why it would not fire with the bowl drained and a dribble of gas in the cylinder. Why the backfire every time, have never seen this happen before. I have had some other strange experiences with the Tecumseh engine, not this however. The BIL showed up today and hauled it away, all smiles. Sometimes money does not mean all that much when you can do something for someone that has very little and works like a dog all day.

Thank you all for the help, you are a great bunch.

Cutter ....

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TomG
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2004-02-01          75646

Whew! Happy that's over and there are smiles all around--me too. I almost never run out of theories about most anything, but I was starting to get pressed. Who knows what today's version might have been. ....

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kubotaguy
Join Date: Nov 2003
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2004-02-02          75780

Glad you got it running Cutter, although I was really looking forward to seeing the pics of the thing sink in the lake!!!! I hate those Tecumseh engines as well. It sees like everything has to be almost perfect for them to even want to try and start. Not to long ago my uncle gave my dad an old mortar mixer with a Wisconsin engine that hadn't been started in 20 or more years. Put a new set of points on it, checked the time, put some fuel in and it fired right off. ....

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cutter
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2004-02-02          75795

Plenty of ice on the bay, plenty of snow to blow and it's an old machine. Slight possibility you may see it sink yet. Just drove by some of the marinas, two storage buildings with the roofs inside now. If I were building new in this area the incline would be greater than what is currently accepted on these homes, let alone the huge outbuildings. One new storage facility that is still intact has not much more than a flat roof, must be cheaper to build that way yet the owner is very well off. Probably how he gets it. ....

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TomG
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2004-02-03          75828

Around here most everybody has roof-rakes to manage high snow load problems but it'd be better to build structures with higher load ratings. I use ours even on pitched roofs because the snow pack near the eaves is thicker than the rest of the roof. It turns to ice in the spring, which damns the runoff and runs back under the shingles. For one low pitched section it'd been real good if the roofers would have known about low-angle shingles. Oh well, that roof raking is better than a trip to a gym. Last week my wife and I snowshoed in to our camp and raked the roof on our construction trailer. Snowshoeing plus roof raking--even better than a trip to the gym. My BIL built a snow roof over his construction trailer so he doesn't have to rake it--good thing since getting to his camp on snowshoes may take several days.

I'm waiting my turn for the walk-behind blower problem. It just keeps hanging in there but it's something called an OSC blower and I haven't identified the engine--probably a '60's vintage. OSC stand for Ontario Small Engine Cooperative--probably something lost in the mists of time.

....

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cutter
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2004-02-03          75876

You know Tom, my mother in law has a saying "you never catch up with your work until you die". She says it in
German, sounds especially immortal. So now I look at my hour or so of trimming with the hand mower as my Saturday at the gym. Funny how as we age, we have such a different perspective on things, isn't it. ....

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Murf
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2004-02-04          75936

The common trick around here for dealing with snow sitting on a tin roof is to put a big propane burner in there for a few minutes with all the doors closed up. In very short order the snow nexts to the steel melts to form a layer of water. The combination of water lubricant and heavy snow causes the snow to slide right off.

Other people use a long pole with a lrge padded end on it to thump the underside causing an avalanche. This doesn't work too well if the snow is frozen to the steel though.

Best of luck. ....

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cutter
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2004-02-04          75977

Hi Murf,

The snow slid nicely off the back side of my barn, the front side has ice dams so most of it is still there. Not worried about it, the pitch along with the sound construction should withstand quite a load. These other buildings are marina storage units. There is never a lick of attention paid to them during the winter, let alone someone bringing a salamander in to defrost the roof! So they get what they get,unfortunately one of my friends has a 39' Silverton that ended up being the victim of the neglect. ....

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TomG
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2004-02-05          76014

I'll have to try this steel roof raking from the inside. That's the way I rake our arctic shelter tents. Generally I just let some old steel roofed sheds fend for themselves as they've done for many years. We do have a steel roof on a screen porch at our camp that I rake. I think that it melts from the bottom on warm days when warm air is under the steel, and then it freezes. That and the ridges makes raking pretty challenging.

We have to leave for town soon so I can get back and rake the eaves of the last couple days of snow before tomorrow's storm. Don't want any more snow than necessary to contribute to the ice build up. Melting the lower sections of roof with heating wire in the spring to cure the ice damns isn't exactly a good time. ....

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Murf
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2004-02-05          76043

Cutter, that poor Silverton deserved better than that, even for a tub, LOL, just a little 'fast boater' dig...

Tom, based on what the weather dept. is telling us you had better plug in that Ford and wax your roof rake, as of this morning they are saying "Significant amounts of snow are possible with this storm especially over northern and central sections of the Province and into the Ottawa Valley. Freezing rain may last a few hours over many areas before changing to rain.".

Best of luck.
....

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popabear
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2004-02-12          76727

Have not read the whole post to see if you got the engine to start. If not did you check the gap between the flywheel and the coil? The drop could have let the flywheel hit the coil and move it out of range? ....

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cutter
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2004-02-12          76744

Ya know Murf, it's the old age that makes you a bit more conservative in your boating desires. From my early childhood, all I wanted to do was fish. The next logical progression was to a radical vee for slicing and the most I could stuff into the bilge for dicing (then I would take her for a ride on the boat:>). Been there done that, now I stop and smell the roses. I have to race on the job all day so during my down-time I appreciate the slow ride with a glass of wine and good company. Of course, if I could afford what I have plus what you have and throw a blow boat in for good measure, you would have to call me Fast Cutter the stink-box blow-boater man! ....

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Murf
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2004-02-13          76775

Err, uhhmmm yeah OK Cutter, bit of a mouthfull but we'll try that handle.....LOL

It's funny that you mention the co-relation between age and boating tastes. I seem to have a differnet take on that philosophy.

While wintering in Florida or summer boating on the great Lakes I started with the fishing boat, then moved upscale to the express cruiser so that I could fish in comfort, travelling north to south was a pain, then I moved up to the 'tub' for full on luxury, and travelling north to south was nearly impossible.

Then I got smart. I got the big fast stink boat. Travelling anywhere is a breeze, it sits behind my dually quite happily. Now when I want luxury I can be at the finest resort in just a few hours, if the little lady wants to go to Florida (from our base in Nassau) it's only a 1.5 - 2 hour ride. If I want seafood there are over a dozen other islands within a two hour radius. Cuba is only a few hours away also.

Best of luck. ....

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cutter
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2004-02-13          76808

Sounds like the life of Riley Murf! Sort of an upscale Miami Vice without the Lieutenant telling you what to do. ....

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