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JD 870 not pulling its own weight

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trentvoigt
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 10 Van Alstyne TX
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2008-11-09          157771

I just got this used 870. It worked well for a few weeks. Then I put a 5ft mower on the back and slowly but surely it would not pull it. I finally removed the mower and it now will not pull its own weight except in 1st gear.

What should I be looking for? Does anyone know what fluid goes in the transaxle in the back?


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kwschumm
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2008-11-09          157773

Diesels are pretty simple, they just need air, compression, and fuel delivered at the right time. The easiest things to check are air and fuel filters. My bet is that the fuel system is gummed up.

If it has a glass fuel bowl, what's the fuel in it look like? Is it nice and clean or does it have a milky or odd appearance? If it looks in any way dirty I'd clean out the fuel bowl, change any fuel filters, drain out all the fuel in the tank and start with fresh fuel (not something that's been sitting for two months) and a healthy does of good diesel additive (Power Service or something like that). ....

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greg_g
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2008-11-09          157774

You sure it's the engine ...... and not the clutch?

//greg// ....

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trentvoigt
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2008-11-09          157775

Definitely not engine. I am assuming clutch? How hard is it to replace? I can do just about any mechanical thing as I grew up in garages, but I don't want to go straight to the clutch if it might be a transmission problem? Are there pumps or anything else I should worry about? It seems to just not be able to pull its weight in any gear except 1st...makes for a very slow tractor.

Is the clutch fairly easy to get to and do yourself if you have a good garage? ....

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earthwrks
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2008-11-10          157777

You'll have to split the tractor in half at the bellhousing.

I have never done it before but have read about it. BTW, my New Holland hydro has a clutch too (KW: you don't have a clutch?)

I would buy the service manual if you're the least apprehensive, or go online and research it.

As far as tools go I would use two wide-footed (so they don't tip over easily) floor jacks--one for each half. It will make rolling the halves apart and together much easier than just blocking both halves up and manhandling them. ....

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greg_g
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2008-11-10          157779

Clutch replacement is pretty straightforward, if you replace the entire clutchpack. Separate the tractor into two pieces, remove old clutchpack/throwout bearing/pilot bearing, install new stuff, reassemble tractor.

If you go that route, find out from JD whether or not the clutchpack is already aligned - or if you have to do it yourself. Cuz all the post installation clutch adjustments in the world won't be any good if the stack height was wrong to begin with.

If you elect to have the clutchpack rebuilt, or simply replace the friction discs, then you'll have to align the reassembled clutchpack yourself. For that you need the tech specs, presumably available from your JD dealer. He might have a spline alignment tool that you can borrow/rent too.

//greg// ....

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kwschumm
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2008-11-10          157783

Quote:
Originally Posted by earthwrks | view 157777
BTW, my New Holland hydro has a clutch too (KW: you don't have a clutch?)


I have an electric PTO clutch pack but no pedal. If there's a clutch buried in the hydro tranny somewhere it's news to me. ....

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earthwrks
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2008-11-10          157785

KW: My hydro's clutch pedal is on the left. The PTOs have to be clutched before eng./dis. them.

The clutch is the first thing power is transmitted through before it gets to the hydro pump. From the pump power goes to a hydro motor then to a "3-range with reverse" gear transmission. Then the PTOs run off the trans. So, if the clutch is disengaged everything stops getting power.

If my machine were a gear type trans they offer a double-clutch--press the clutch so far and the PTO(?) stops, press it farther and the wheels stop. ....

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trentvoigt
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2008-11-10          157786

The PTO seems to be still working fine. However, since I still have movement in first gear that could be enough power to run the PTO.

I have noticed that even with the clutch depressed the PTO grinds a little when you engage. ....

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greg_g
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2008-11-10          157788

Quote:
Originally Posted by trentvoigt | view 157786
I have noticed that even with the clutch depressed the PTO grinds a little when you engage.
That's also a clutch adjustment. Your pedal isn't completely pulling the PTO friction disc away from the flywheel surface. Usually an easy adjustment. But from the other issues you described, it's the least of your problems right now.

/greg/ ....

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earthwrks
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2008-11-10          157789

Greg, so that is to say the clutch is still suspect? ....

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greg_g
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2008-11-10          157792

Absolutely - unless Yanmar slipped in an 870 hydrostat model I've never seen before. Every JD870 I've encountered (admittedly few) was a geared tractor with a 2-stage clutch. But if this one does turn out to be a hydrostat model, I'll gracefully back out of the discussion.

//greg// ....

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kthompson
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2008-11-10          157793

Quote:
Originally Posted by greg_g | view 157792
Absolutely - unless Yanmar slipped in an 870 hydrostat model I've never seen before. Every JD870 I've encountered (admittedly few) was a geared tractor with a 2-stage clutch. But if this one does turn out to be a hydrostat model, I'll gracefully back out of the discussion.//greg//


Greg, don't gracefully back out with EW..do it loudly and complaining if you ever must. Let him know you were there! :) Then you may be trying to show him how a Southern Gentleman acts. Oh come one EW, you are still invited for Thanksgiving. Still need a turkey. OK will lay off.
....

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trentvoigt
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2008-11-10          157794

The JD dealer told me it was a diaphragm clutch. 2 Diaphragms $40 each, Discs $525, PTO Disc $$355 and throwout bearing $42.

So I am assuming it is a standard clutch replacement, what are the diaphragms?

....

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greg_g
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2008-11-10          157796

I'm not sure what "diaphragms" means in JD-speak, but it sounds to me like the Belleville springs. But those parts and prices seem to account for all the major parts that MAKE UP a clutchpack. That's sorta like paying for all the individual parts to build your own clutchpack. Can't they give you one price just for one complete/assembled (and aligned) clutchpack?

FWIW, an entire clutchpack for one of my tractors runs in the vicinity of $500 complete (less alignment and bearings). Prices vary depending on how the dollar is doing in the Asian markets.

//greg// ....

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trentvoigt
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2008-11-10          157797

Yeah they want $2215 for the clutch pack, It includes the covers and everything aligned. Called 2 different dealers, same price. For $1000 and can align it.

I am assuming it is not any different than aligning a truck clutch, just shove the tool in, get it all in place and tighten it down (twice) once for the drive train once for the pto? ....

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earthwrks
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2008-11-10          157798

Kenny, I haven't been alive as long as you have, so I'm not as edumacated on mechanical tings like farm tractor clutches like you--buddy ol' pal. What time's dinna?

Greg, I was being honest and sincere. Admittedly I have limited exposure to mechanical transmissions.

That said, looking at my New Holland service manual they show a double-clutch that has two "diaphragm springs"---think: a belleville washer the size of the flywheel or the clutch disk.

I have a hunch that if the dealer is telling him he needs two of the "x" parts, he's maybe got a double clutch, perhaps without knowing it.

Might be such a things that something has failed (obviously) but maybe only itself neds to be replaced if there's double the quantity of parts.

I'm going to see if there any psrts diagrams on the net. ....

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greg_g
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2008-11-10          157800

Quote:
Originally Posted by earthwrks | view 157798
think: a belleville washer the size of the flywheel or the clutch disk.
Belleville springs, not Belleville washers. My 35hp clutchpack has a pair of 9" Belleville springs, the clutchpack in my 45hp has one big 11 incher. And if by "double clutch" you mean 2-stage, they both are; one for the drivetrain, one for the PTO. So is the one in the JD870.

Not counting fastening hardware, there's really not much of a parts list. The main components are simply one pressure plate, two friction discs, one or two diaphragms (Belleville) springs, a few stack height springs, and the clutch fingers. The bearings I mentioned are not considered part of a clutchpack, but should be replaced anyway.

//greg// ....

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greg_g
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2008-11-10          157801

Quote:
Originally Posted by trentvoigt | view 157797
I am assuming it is not any different than aligning a truck clutch, just shove the tool in, get it all in place and tighten it down (twice) once for the drive train once for the pto?
Well, if the alignment is already done, that's about it. Except the two clutch stages are ganged inside the clutchpack, so you only have to "tighten" once. Pilot bearings and throwout bearings should be changed at the same time.

Even if $2215 includes installation, it's an absolute rip-off. I'd remove the clutchpack and bearings myself, toss the bearings and send it to a clutch repair shop for a rebuild with generic parts. There's a good one about 100 miles from me, down in Nashville.

Or, try Endurance Power in Nebraska (800-467-5545). Their catalog (below) says the AM877476J clutchpack (complete) fits the 870, 970, and 1070.

//greg// ....


Link:   catalog

 
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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2008-11-10          157806

Quote:
Originally Posted by trentvoigt | view 157797
Yeah they want $2215 for the clutch pack,It includes the covers and everything aligned.Called 2 different dealers, same price.For $1000 and can align it.I am assuming it is not any different than aligning a truck clutch, just shove the tool in, get it all in place and tighten it down (twice) once for the drive train once for the pto?


trentvoigt, the clutch assembly is listed under John Deere part # LVA801352 and list price is $2150.00. The labor to install it would probably be at least 10 hours labor at whatever shop rate the dealer charges. $80 per hour may be the norm nowadays.

You might try asking your Deere dealer parts manager if Deere sells a rebuilt/remanufactured clutch assembly for your 870.

I take it you have already looked into adjusting the clutch and it will not develop proper clamping force.

Typically it is considered best to replace both the pto and main clutch disk and most other items in the clutch assemble while the tractor is split. Less chance of having to go back in again a split the tractor a 2nd time.

If you burned up the main clutch disk, I would think you would have smelled it burning significantly. Could it be a seal inside the bellhousing has failed and oil soaked the clutch disks? This will still likely require splitting the tractor. If you have the tools and shop equipment, this is something you could do with a shop repair manual. If not, best to either take it to the dealer or a local mechanic who can probably do the job much cheaper.
....

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candoarms
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2008-11-11          157816

Trentvoigt,

There are some good discussions on this subject on the various internet boards. Several folks have replaced their own clutch packs and aligned them in their own garages.

One fella gave a complete rundown on the process, explaining most every detail. He mentioned that there's a bolt above the starter that's difficult to find and get to. They also discussed the fact that the shaft tends to come out with the front half of the tractor, possibly resulting in a PTO part that falls into the transmission. They talked about clutch fingers, aligning the clutch pack, and the various other challenges involved.

If you're interested in doing this job yourself, you might want to do some reading on the net, and then get yourself a good repair manual.

Joel ....

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candoarms
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2008-11-11          157818

Discussion involving John Deere 870 clutch pack replacement.

See link below.

Joel ....


Link:   JD 870 Clutch Pack Replacement

 
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trentvoigt
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2008-11-11          157819

yeah I had seen this on my search for info. I ordered the big shop manual from JD, got it off ebay.

I am curious from an earlier post of whether it has oil/fluid on the disks? I never had a smell and it would just make sense the way it is acting. If you let out the clutch in 2nd with no throttle it will take off, but as soon as you put a little throttle to it, it just slows down like it is slipping.

So $2K for the pack is pretty pricey.. do you think that Endurance or a clutch rebuild place in Dallas would be reasonable and produce a "pack". ....

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greg_g
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2008-11-11          157820

gotta be cheaper than John Deere, but you won't know till ya call'em. I'd go for a rebuild first, but make sure whether or not it's aligned and ready for reinstallation. That said, if your JD shop manuals include the alignment process alighment is a non-issue. You can do it yourself.

//greg// ....

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kthompson
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2008-11-11          157827

take it you have already looked into adjusting the clutch and it will not develop proper clamping force.

Trent, Chief asked this question and I did not see any reply to it. I would be sure there all is adjusted properly and no linkage binding or anything else preventing the clutch to fully release before spending any such amount of money or work. ....

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jdkid4890
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2008-11-23          158086

this may be a dumb question but are you sure that its the clutch? does the engine pull down when you are trying to pull the mower? these are great little tractors and very tech friendy. if you do split this tractor i would put some blocks between the front axle and the frame to keep the front end from rolling and makes it so much easier to go back together.
kris ....

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bmocad
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2008-12-17          158633

I have two jd 870's And replaced the clutch on one about 3 year ago. It is just about the same as a truck except you must have a way to keep the front end stable when you separate the two halfs. As far as aline go's I just made the tool simple towel to fit the hole and some tape to enlarge the towel to fit the clutch spline. this center the clutch while I bolted it back together.
It only took me about 3hours to get it apart and 5 hours back. The hardest part was to come up with the tool.
Your will aso need a tool to set 3rods that ride on throw out bearing this is done so you get even presure and the clutches properly. This all in the jd tech Manual I have it on cd form. The you got off ebay should have it in . If not let know. If you have any questions email me. ....

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trentvoigt
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2009-02-01          160029

OK, I know most of you are watching the superbowl, but I have a tractor to fix, my wife is going to kill me if I don't get this thing moving.

I have it completely apart... but I can not get it to separate? Is there any left but the 4 bolts that connect the engine to the bell housing? I even took the 4 long bolts out on the bottom of the bell housing, but it still would not separate. ....

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earthwrks
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2009-02-01          160030

Typically there is a locating/alignment pin(s) that mate the castings together before you install the bolts. You'll need to carefully tap a thin prybar between the castings--you'll need to go back and forth from each side and top and bottom otherwise you'll bind up the separation. And you have consider that the halves will have a shaft that has to slide out too--but once it's separated they halves will drop if not supported properly or adequately. And the better you support it in the position that's in now, the easier and quicker it will go back together. ....

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greg_g
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2009-02-01          160039

Quote:
Originally Posted by trentvoigt | view 160029
I have it completely apart... but I can not get it to separate?Is there any left but the 4 bolts that connect the engine to the bell housing?
I may be misreading your words, but are you trying to break the tractor between the engine and the bellhousing? If so, why? It's been a long time since I sold my YM240 (equivalent to a JD850). But I'm pretty confident that - to get at the clutchpack and throwout bearing - you have to split between the bellhousing and the transmission.

Or have I misinterpreted ?

//greg// ....

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trentvoigt
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2009-02-01          160040

You are correct I am trying to split between engine and bell housing. I was following the shop manual. I did notice the next section was removing the bell housing, but I would have thought it would have been like a truck and when it pulled apart the clutch would be attached to the flywheel?

Am I wrong? Also would it be easier to break at the transmission? Either way do you have to pull it apart at the engine and then remove the bell housing? ....

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earthwrks
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2009-02-02          160042

I'm not familiar with your machine, so I don't want to make up stuff. Wish I could help. ....

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greg_g
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2009-02-02          160044

Quote:
Originally Posted by trentvoigt | view 160040
I would have thought it would have been like a truck and when it pulled apart the clutch would be attached to the flywheel?Am I wrong?Also would it be easier to break at the transmission?Either way do you have to pull it apart at the engine and then remove the bell housing?
Well, like I said - it's been a long time since I sold mine. But I believe there are oil seals between the engine and the bellhousing. If true, you'll likely have a mess - and end up needing new seals and gaskets, and have gotten no farther in the clutch job.

Yes, the clutchpack should be bolted to the flywheel. But I'm pretty sure the bellhousing stays on the tractor while you separate at the tranny. Then unbolt the clutchpack from the flywheel. Give strong consideration to replacing both the pilot bearing and the throwout bearing while you're in there. Inspect any roll pins and return springs you may find - for damage and/or rust - especially those related to the clutch fork. May not hurt to replace them just out of principle.

But keep in mind that I'm comparing my old YM240 to your JD870. There could be some differences of which I'm not aware. In any case, the shop manual should take precedence. Maybe it's just a matter of there being more than one way to interpret the shop manual.

//greg// ....

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trentvoigt
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2009-02-14          160301

OK got this beast apart and like many said the shaft came with the engine. I quickly removed it and put it back in the transaxle. There was comments about something falling into the transaxle when you pulled the shaft? How do you know? I put the shaft back and it seems tight and it turns the PTO shaft. Am I good?

....

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