NH 758C Backhoe Installation: Back Hoe  -- Tractor Attachments Implements 3ph Discussion Forum and Review NH 758C Backhoe Installation: Back Hoe -- Tractor Attachments Implements 3ph Discussion Forum

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 05-21-2003, 14:28 Post: 55291
userid



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 NH 758C Backhoe Installation

Todd here from AZ. Recently purchased a TC33D w/758C BH. With my BH manual I received installation instructions on the hydraulics much the way Tom G. discribed installing a BH for "kfutavon". The loader valve does have PB, and there is a port in the tank in which the instructions point out very clearly how to connect to. However, the dealer set up is very different then the above. One line comes somewhere out of the loader valve which is different then what the instructions describes as Power Beyond and the other line comes out of the hydraulic manifold. This all works until you disconect the BH. Unless you reconnect the two lines into each other you don't have any hydraulics to the 3pt. This is very difficult because now the lines are lose under the tractor and you have to bend them at 90 degrees to connect them. It was explaned to me that the factory's and Tom G. way would not allow me to use the loader and controls with the BH hooked up. Can this be right? I'm very new to compacts and don't see to many in this part of the world to compair. Dealer says they've been doing this for years and it's never been an issue. They also said I shouldn't have got hold of the instructions. I do like the dealer a lot and feel they will work with me on this. Would like to know everybodys thoughts on this and if I can turn this around to make it a little more user friendly. Thanks, Todd






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 05-22-2003, 07:32 Post: 55328
TomG

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 NH 758C Backhoe Installation

I guess the BH is using the tractor hydraulics and reservoir, and connection is made from a manifold block on the side of the engine that is similar to my Ford 1710. A picture may help a bit. Click on the link below and then click on 'hoses.' The pic shows the manifold my 1710's mainifld on the right and the loader valve outlet section on the left.

I'm not sure if the loader works or doesn't work when the hoe is mounted. Generally it should work because it's common practice to dig in the blade to help stabilize the tractor when the hoe is in use. That's another way of saying that the loader and hoe can both be fully functional (but one at a time) and that is a common hookup. It's also common for loader, hoe and 3ph to be fully functional but again one at a time. With this type hook up there should be two hoses connected to the manifold block.

It's a little tough to figure out what's happening. You seem fairly certain the loader's PB port doesn't go to the hoe's inlet. However, description of the problem is what would happen if a PB line were disconnected. In such a case, there would be no return for the pump flow and the system relief valve would open and it's not good to run a tractor for long in this condition. The loader would work since the valve would be receiving pressure but the 3ph wouldn't work. The JD power-beyond kit sold for some of their hoes contains a short hose to connect the PB line together when the hoe is dismounted and it has to be used.

I'm not sure what port on a loader valve other than the PB could be used to power a hoe. Most valve assemblies have control sections with two ports each for cylinder lines that are sandwiched between an inlet and an outlet section. I suppose some valves could have ports I don't know about. On the other hand, I run my own hoe from a 3rd valve controlled section on my loader valve rather than from the PB line. The hoe lines connect to the cylinder ports and I hold the valve open with a bungee cord to run the hoe. I do have to make sure I don't pull the valve the wrong direction or I damage may do a lot of damage.

A bunch of things are possible and I hope this helps sort things out a bit.






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 05-22-2003, 10:03 Post: 55352
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 NH 758C Backhoe Installation

Thanks Tom - The pictures do look a lot like my Tank Port and Manifold. The part that has me puzzled is the loader valve. It does not appear that they rerouted any existing hoses, just added new ones. My next move is to pull the cover from the hoe valve to see which hose is the inlet. The one coming from the loader valve (which I think it is) or the one from the manifold. I'm guessing the manifold is not under pressure and would be the return, therefore no harm will come to the relief valve? Todd






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 05-23-2003, 07:25 Post: 55405
TomG

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 NH 758C Backhoe Installation

This is sure tough trying to figure out the connection by word. First, I'd say to be very careful with the connections. There's really little risk of damaging a relief valve. The risk is that running a tractor too long when the relief is open over-heats the oil and damages the pump. However, connecting a hoe backwards can ruin the valve or the pump too if a relief valve is bypassed.

Almost all valve assemblies have 'IN' or 'P' stamped on the inlet section body to identify the inlet port. JD PB kits for hoes use different connectors on the hoses so they can't be connected backwards. Mine can be and I use plastic tie straps to identify the inlet and pressure hoses.

I wonder if you would count the lines connected to the loader valve when the hoe is connected. I'd expect to find four lines to the loader cylinders connected to two control valve sections at the center of the valves assembly between the inlet and outlet sections. In addition, one line should connect into one end of the assembly and one or two lines connected to the other end. I'd expect this number of lines whether the hoe is mounted or not.

If the loader valve assembly has one end where two lines connect, that is the outlet section. The other end with a single line would be the inlet section. I'm curious where the inlet line runs. If it goes to the manifold block on the side of the engine, that would be the auxiliary system pressure port. If one of the two lines on the outlet section goes to a fitting on tractor cases, that is the low-pressure or tank line and the other is the PB port. I'm also curious where the PB port line runs.






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 05-23-2003, 08:55 Post: 55420
AC5ZO

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 NH 758C Backhoe Installation

If the dealer hooked the hoe up properly, you cannot put it on backwards. The sex and size of the couplings is different.

I will look this up on my 758 manuals when I get a chance. I do remember that there is a different hookup depending on the style of loader and valving. My dealer gave me all the manuals. There is no reason why you should not have them if you use the information safely.

I have a TC45, so there may be some differences, but there are more similarities.






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 05-23-2003, 11:32 Post: 55432
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 NH 758C Backhoe Installation

I still haven't got around to pulling the cover off of the loader valve to take a look inside. I did however cause an up roar at the dealer. Being this close to the border there seems to be only two ways of installing a hoe: There way and the NH way (wrong way). Upper management to there memory has never set up a hoe the NH way. Under great protest the new guy (new service manager's hire, both being of US decent)set up a new TC33D w/hoe the NH way yesterday for all to see. It's great! All connections are in easy reach, everything works, the hoe runs smoother with the 3/8 input hose, you don't need the extra jumper rapped around the pto shield to make the 3pt work, there's no ties around the loader lines or rear axle, it's clear the input came from the PB and the output into the tank... My tractor is scheduled to be replumbed next week. I'll sleep a little better and so will TomG. I learned a lot, Thanks! Oh, the dealer said they have a new policy at the dealership called
"The Todd Policy". I wonder what that means?






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 07-13-2003, 02:00 Post: 59394
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 NH 758C Backhoe Installation

I was reading your thread here and I seem to have the same problem as you did. I wonder if you could look at my pictures and see if the set up looks like your dealer originally did on yours.

I have two problems with it

1) When the BH comes off, one of the lines coming down out of the FEL valve enclosure, which is disconnected from the BH line at the front of the BH subfame, has to be connected to the hydraulic block near the engine dipstick. As shown in picture 1, this line is not long enough and must be stretched really tight to be attached. Then it blocks the bottom plate that has to swing down when the FEL is to be detached, so I have to remove this line every time I put the FEL on or off.

2) When connecting and disconnecting the BH, The hose at the front of the subframe is in danger of getting sheared off or pinched by the mounting brackets under the tractor. Then you have to lay on your side to connect this hose, and then you have to coil the hose and tie-wrap it to the subframe. I have an injured shoulder and this procedure is a royal PITA, as well as in the shoulder.

I can't believe this is the way it should be done.

I had trouble uploading my pics, got a couple of duplicates I can't get rid of, but hopefully you can acess them well enough to see what I am talking about.






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 07-13-2003, 04:42 Post: 59396
AC5ZO

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 NH 758C Backhoe Installation

I see a couple of differences between your installation and the way that the dealer installed mine. The hose going toward the front manifold on mine exits out of the side of the frame behind the point where the quick mount pins go. I cannot tell on your pictures, but mine has excess hose coiled up near the main swing pivot at the BH operating platform. I get some extra length on the hoses by uncoiling there. These are held in place on mine with a rubber bungee cord.

It is still not easy to make front connections, but I do not need to lay on the ground to do them. I leave the extra length uncoiled when the BH is off. When reinstalling I pull the extra hose through the frame and coil it up near the pivot like my dealer did originally. There is no extra hose to coil near the front hydraulic manifold.

PS. Mine has a FEL also. This does seem to require connecting the hydraulic feed line for the BH back into the hydraulic manifold when the BH is not mounted. I have never traced the hydraulic circuit to see why.






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 07-13-2003, 05:32 Post: 59398
TomG

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 NH 758C Backhoe Installation

Most likely the hose has to be reconnected because the BH valve is spliced into the loader valve PB return line. When the BH is removed the loader PB line must be connected to the manifold return port to provide a return path to the reservoir. If it's not, the loader would work normally but the relief valve would open whenever the loader wasn't active and the oil would over-heat.

It sounds like the installation needs some attention. Quick connectors to pull apart on lines that have to be stretched to connect them. Lines should not be exposed to mechanical damage and there should be no sharp bends, loops or excessive length. There is no problem with an inactive line that is coiled, but if it carries pressure it flexes against bends and coils every time a valve is operated, which shortens life of the hose. To see how a hose tries to straighten itself under pressure, grab a loader cylinder hose and operate the valve.

A hose may carry 2000 lbs. pressure, and one that develops a pinhole leak can be dangerous. Elbows or swivel fittings are sometimes used to improve routing of hoses. Bungee cords used to keep hose from flopping around in use are good. Excessive movement under pressure doesn't do hoses any good.






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 07-17-2003, 04:28 Post: 59660
jeff r



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 NH 758C Backhoe Installation

Mike D,

Another thing to think about to solve your problem and would be easy on the shoulder would be to just connect up your loader properly and just add a PTO mounted hydro pump to power your backhoe. Slipping a pump on a PTO shaft is a whole easier on the shoulder than messing around with what you are going through.






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Discussion Boards > Active Subjects > Messages as Posted > Back Hoe Forum

Thread 55291 Filter by Poster:
AC5ZO 2 | jeff r 1 | MikeD. 1 | TomG 3 | userid 3 |




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