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TC33D New Holland breaking in 2 at engine block

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Stephen Brewer
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2002-10-11          43716

My TC33D has a NH loader (7308) and backhoe (757C). The tractor was 3 years old in August. I bought it specifically for what it is doing. I am a landscaper and that is what the tractor has always done. I ordered the tractor from the dealer in June of 1999 and I told him I had a 955 JD and I wanted the same machine specs except a NH. I was very happy with the machines capabilities and performance until the other day when, for no known reason it just broke the back completely off the engine block. The studs/bolts between the transmission and the engine were all still tight and intact, according to the dealer, upon inspection. The engine block itself actually broke. I was wondering if you ever heard of this happening before?? Also my email address is ashjon@nbnet.nb.ca if anyone is interested in emailing me directly on this. Thanks.


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jeff r
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2002-10-11          43719

Stephen,

Was your backhoe 3 point mounted or mounted on a subframe?


Jeff R
....

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Stephen Brewer
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2002-10-12          43732

Re; My TC33D Breaking in two at the engine block. My Backhoe had a subframe mount that did not connect at the top link of the tph. In fact thge tph had to be removed in order for the backhoe to be installed. There is a whole seperate bracket. The bracket is bolted under the drawbar to the rear houseing and then the drwbar bracket is placed under that. The backhoe has a cross member in the subframe which slides into this bracket. The subframe also has two blracket which are bolted under the loader brackets to the block. The backhoe is quick attach but only to this frame and has nothing to do with the tph. Please reply. Thanks. ....

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TomG
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2002-10-12          43733

That's an unfortunate one that I haven't heard before. I can easily see how the attachment of the bell-housing to an engine could end up being stronger than the block and that would be the result.

Unfortunate as it is, I think it also points out something very important. Despite the evolution of compacts into smallish 'do everything' equipment, a tractor still is designed mostly to pull things. They just aren't structurally anything like a dedicated backhoe.

Even more important is knowing that sub-frames don't make a tractor 'bomb-proof.' Sticking a couple of clamshells either side of the cases may spread the stress away from the top-link mount, but it doesn't necessarily spread the stress across the engine/bell housing joint. However, I believe that some sub-frame mounts do that. The design would be a little tricky though because cast parts don't deflect under load while mild and tempered alloy parts do. Mixing and matching cast and alloy parts for wide load ranges over time would be quite an engineering feat.

From some perspective, anything other than draft on the 3ph is alien to tractor design and might be considered abuse. Big powerful hoes (sub-frame or not) and big loaders which need heavy 3ph ballast to maintain balance all have potential for breaking a tractor in half.

I'm sorry it happened and I'm not suggesting that there was abuse of the tractor in this case or even excluding that there may have been a manufacturing defect. I am suggesting that maybe the uses of compacts have been inadvertently over-sold a bit. It's sort of similar to light truck commercials I used to see. 'BUILDS TOUGH TRUCKS' you'd hear and then see a 4wd 1/2-ton bouncing down a cliff. 'Lord' I used to think, I wonder how long they'd last if anybody actually drove them like that.
....

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TomG
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2002-10-12          43741

Steven: I didn't see your description of the sub-frame before I replied. The sub-frame does sound like a type that tries to distribute stresses across the bell-housing joint.

I suppose there's little help now that it happened other than condolences. But my comments about mixing and matching alloy and cast parts probably apply. I’m reasonably certain that the engineering of such a thing would be very tricky. There are people with mechanical engineering backgrounds here and maybe we'll hear some educated opinions.

I was writing mostly for other readers who might not be aware of tractor limitations and that sub-frames don't guarantee invulnerability. I have a fairly small and weak 3ph hoe for my Ford. It does what I want and I'll happily contract out anything the puny hoe won't handle.

I suppose your situation is a tough call. Many dedicated backhoes are small skid-steers. Their uses aren't as generalized as a tractor and they do make a mess of lawns.
....

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Stephen Brewer
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2002-10-12          43755

It looks like the tractor is going to be warrantied as I have the 5 year extended warranty. The problem that I have is that the JD 955 which I had with a 7 hoe and a loader had a full frame and also a subframe. When I went to the NH dealer and requested a NH machine equivalent to the 955 JD this is what I received and they sent it this way. I ordered this machine to be dedicated to backhoe work and this is what happened. My problem is that the dealer misrepresented this machine as its seems now that it cannot stand up to the tasks that it was sold for and represented to handle. The machine that broke came from the manufacturer already assembled with the hoe, subframe and loader. The dealer was aware and cautioned as to the use of this machine. I do not use this or any other machine abusively. I have had 5 other machines of the same size and smaller and never had any problem like this. It seems to be a problem with the casting of these blocks. The dealer stated that this is the smallest tractor that New Holland puts this block in so it doesn't seem right that it would have broken. Also the implements that I have on the tractor ie:NH Backhoe and NH loader are the smaller size for this machine. NH makes the 757 and the 758 both to fit this machine. I have the 757C on my machine. If anyone has heard of this happening to someone else let me know. I always thought that boltys could come loose or something of that nature but for the back end to just break off the engine block with all the bots tight this is just mind boggling and frustrating.
Thanks.
....

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Peters
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2002-10-12          43758

I would look closely at the casting on the block. Although QA/QC should have determine this there may have been a defect in the casting. There used to be a lot of blocks that would break/crack due to defects, but they are less common with better casting techniques. ....

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RickB.
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2002-10-12          43759

I understand your frustration and anger, but lets review the facts. You asked for a New Holland tractor that met the specs of your 955 Deere. I believe the TC33/7308/757C does that as closely as any combination in the NH line. New Holland does not sell 955's painted blue.The 7308 is the ONLY FEL NH makes for installation on the Class II Boomers. There is simply no other choice. I won't argue whether a 758C hoe can be fitted to a Class II tractor with factory mounts, but I will state that any dealer that does it is not doing his reputation or customer any favors; the 758C is simply too big. There hasn't been a 757 (no suffix letter) in the NH line for many years. Therefore the 757C with subframe is the only SANE hoe option offered by NH for a TC33. Your tractor did not leave the factory with a backhoe mounted. Dealers install backhoes, period. Recently, the factory began installing loader mount kits and valves, but the dealer still hangs the loader on the mounts, and may have installed the mounts and valve too. The dealership where I work sells several dozens of TC's every year. Some with Bradco hoes, some with New Holland. Breaking engine blocks is not something we have seen or heard of, although I don't doubt it can happen. I am glad to hear this failure is covered under warranty, and you should be, too. It isn't too difficult to find compacts of any color you choose with this kind of failure, they all do at times. We have a Kubota bellhousing used as a planter. The owner high-centered a mid mount mower, and knocked the attachment mount pads off BOTH sides of the housing. We have it because we did the repair: Kubota did not warranty the failure, but I do not know the particulars. ....

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TomG
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2002-10-13          43771

It's good to hear that it was a manufacturer/dealer recommended configuration and that they are going to stand behind it.

I worked in statistics and probability with some applications to QC and risk assessment. I think of failures as inevitable, but within the engineered life expectancy of a system, failures should be statistically rare events. However, to virtually eliminate them would require overly conservative designs--sort of like old BMW motorcycles.

To get useful work from a machine is to accept risk of failure, and of course some acceptable configurations accept more risk than others. There is no way to avoid playing the odds. It is good to hear that when the odds fail the customer/dealer/manufacturer (we're all in the same game) that the manufacturer makes it right. They dealt the cards after all, but I guess that's what should be expected from a manufacturer and that is what’s paid for in big 3 or 4 machines. Of course all this abstract stuff is beside the point when the failure happens to you, but it is good to hear that it'll be made right.
....

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jeff r
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2002-10-13          43776

Steven,
I'm trying to visualize your set up via your explanation as compared to my setup. My Woods subframe integrates and bolts into the frame connected Wood's 1006 frontloader bracket via a bracket pinned with a 14 inch pin and U bracket that slides into the subframe crossframe bar. Since the Kubota B-2150 has a steel ladder frame type construction and at no time does my backhoe/frontloader mounting set-up bolt into any critical drive-line components other than the bracket under where the drawbar hitch was removed squarely under the tractor's whole back axle. I think if I stress anything it will be on the steel ladder frame and not on a weaker driveline housings. Does the NH Boomer tractor line have a steel ladder frame type construction? I can't remember. If I understood you correctly, you said your hoe does not attach to the tractor with a TOP link to the 3 point attachment hole??? If your hoe is just attached to the subframe I find that "ODD". The WOOD's subframe has No physical connections to the 3 point top link even though the Wood's mounting kit included a heavy duty replacement adjustable top link that is connected to the top link of the backhoe and to the top link bracket of the tractor. The Wood's and Kubota Backhoes mounted on a SUBFRAME, REQUIRE A TOP LINK BAR TO BE USED and I would presume all others do too. Seems to me your explanation on your subframe mounting is that it bolts into your weaker drive (engine block) components and while that is better than 3 point mounting, all the subframe did was tranfer Load/stress to the weaker engine block. The simple question remains, does the NH have a ladder frame design. If they don't, the the subframe attachement point to the engine block may have been the only choice left. Somebody correct my theory if I'm wrong. ....

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stephen brewer
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2002-10-13          43781

The TC33D Does Not have a ladder type frame as did the JD 955 and when I oredered it from the dealer I showed him this feature. When I received my NH TC33D 2 months later it did not have this ladder type frame. I spoke to the dealer about this and he asured me that their setup was as good if not better than JD and not to be alarmed. Here I am!! ....

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jeff r
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2002-10-13          43784

Stephen,

I thought it didn't have a ladder frame design but I didn't know. At least it is covered under your extended warranty and now you are better informed for your next tractor purchase.

Jeff R ....

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ryan
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2002-10-13          43786

In regards to anyone in western PA looking for or having questions about a NH or a JD, please contact me we have several dealerships in Western PA and i would be more than happy to help you any way I can.

Thank you ....

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TomG
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2002-10-14          43796

I'm not sure that a ladder frame is the whole answer. I seem to recall a discussion where a particular tractor that has a ladder frame isn't as strong as some conventional tractors of similar size and power, but this is a pretty fuzzy recollection.

The engineering difficulty as I also recall with fuzzy recollection is that when load is placed on a cast member like the cases, it's pretty difficult to distribute it away from the cast structure (which includes the bell housing and engine). Cast absorbs load almost instantaneously since it doesn't deflect. Mild and tempered steels do deflect and have to flex before load is absorbed. So, simply connecting a mild or tempered steel part from a cast structure to something else may not get a lot of load on the connecting part and away from the cast structure. Perhaps this is an overly technical issue or maybe my recollection is so fuzzy that I misunderstood the whole thing.
....

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jeff r
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2002-10-14          43829

TomG,
You may be right that subframe may not be the answer but having a NH subframe bolt into a driveline componet surely isn't the answer either. Replacing a bent ladder frame is a whole lot easier and cheaper than replacing a broken engine block IMO. I will put my money on a subframe bolted into a ladder frame design anyday. Anything man can create can be broken but some things break harder than others and a subframe bolted into a ladder frame by-passing driveline components is harder to break. ....

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TomG
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2002-10-15          43842

Jeff: I mostly agree, but I wish I could recall which ladder frame tractor it was that somebody characterized as pretty weak.

A guy who operates heavy equipment was visiting the other day and the discussion here came up. He said that last winter somebody was plowing snow with (I think it was) a large wheel-loader. Hit something buried under the snow and broke the loader. The guy said: 'I wouldn't have believe that you could break that casting--it really is massive.' Yes anything can be broken. Frames probably are cheaper than casting to replace and they are a lot easier to straighten than trying to a weld broken casting as well.

I was more interested in theoretical ideas here, and probably self-indulgently so. I really don't know if sub-frames used on tractors with ladder frames attach to the cases or to the frame. I suppose some could be either way. My theoretical interest is how can load be distributed from a structure that doesn't deflect by connecting it to members that do deflect? A casting basically has to break to move while mild steel can't take load unless it does move. It seems like bracing a casting might not make it much stronger.

It's sort of ironic that cast cases are consider weak when I believe that cast actually is stronger than most mild or alloy steels (that's probably pound for pound). Heavy load bridges or docks are sometimes built from cast iron as are heavy machine tool beds. Perhaps the main reason is that mild steel bends when it fails while cast breaks, and the results of breaks can be more catastrophic than bends.
....

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L. C.
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2003-01-05          46970

Thanks everyone for the info. I just bought a TC33D with 7308 loader and am contemplating a 758C backhoe because it is the biggest available for this tractor. Now it seems a lighter unit might be a better choice? I was told by a NH dealer that putting a 3-point backhoe on the tractor would void the warranty and could break it in half. I thought he was exaggerating - maybe not. I was also told that compact tractors use lighter castings than ag tractors so they won't tear up peoples' lawns. It's scary that this could happen with a factory subrame unit.
Thanks,
Leonard ....

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TomG
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2003-01-05          46973

Far as I know the dealer isn't exaggerating, although the stories I've heard about hoe breaking tractors have been 3ph hoes.

I don't think I'd worry too much about having a big but recommended hoe. Using equipment always runs the risk of breaking it. It just not reasonable to design it to be bomb-proof and still do useful work. It always is possible to abuse equipment. The thing is that it's very easy to abuse a hoe-equipped tractor.

I believe all hoe manuals have a drawing of the hoe stretched out and the bucket curled down with a caption 'Warning don't dig like this.' Stretching out a hoe tremendously increases leverage of forces applied to the tractor. In practice, not stretching out the hoe means not being able to dig a wide excavation without terracing or having to move the tractor frequently when trenching. It's very tempting to stretch it out, and if a rock is encountered in the head of a trench, it's really tough to say 'OK I'm not going to dig that rock, I'll move the tractor closer.'

It takes a bit of discipline to avoid abusing the tractor, but you'll probably appreciate the extra reach of a big hoe when digging in soft stuff. Extra reach also may mean that dirt can be dumped far enough from a deep trench that the pile doesn't get so high that you have to start pushing it back with the side of the bucket. That's also not great for a tractor.
....

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marklugo
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2003-01-06          47070

Poorly designed sub frames can actually concentrate the stress on the bell housing area. I know this is contrary to popular opinion, but a 3 point hitch is where tractors are designed to take stress. Branson and Century have had the same problem. Kubotas as well. The problem, thin fly wheel housings, blocks and automotive engineers (not tractor engineers)making tractors for looks and not function.
More than likely, it was the loader that broke the tractor and not the hoe. At least the mounting brackets are closely connected with the affected area. ....

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hardwood
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2003-01-07          47078

Steven, I haven't heard of a tractor breaking from a rear mount piece of equipment, altho I can remember a few around here being broken with front end loaders, and also a few being broken while trying to pull them from a stuck situation. Altho I've had several in the past and my 4300 Deere is the same I've never liked using the engine block as a frame member especially for loader mounting. My #48 hoe has a subframe mount, and I try to make sure the stabilizers allways have the rear tires off the ground and the loader bucket is supporting the front of the tractor. The things you broke sound expensive, I hope it don't happen again. ....

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DK35vince
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2003-01-07          47086

hardwood,
I also never liked the block and bellhousing being the frame (seems like a lot of stress for those parts).
Manufacturers have a long list of opptions you can get on your tractor.
Maybe a full frame should be an option . ....

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Stan
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2003-01-07          47089

TomG -

Read you comment on how not to dig w/ a hoe yesterday, and agree completely w/ your advice. This morning I was "drooling" over a brouchure for a popular compact tractor, and there's the smiling old guy w/ the hoe stretched out, starting a trench about as far away as he could reach. Had to chuckle over that one. ....

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slowrev
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2003-01-07          47093

Stan,
I seems that the sales persons are always promising more than a product is designed for. I have worked in several technical positions where the customer bought an item and called up support because they could not get it to do something that was was not designed to do, but the salesperson had told them it would !###!. Let the buyer beware, they can promise you anything but it is what is written on paper that counts. Unfortunately there are large gaps in the written specifications of most tractors and other products out there. Which leaves the buyer holding the bag, and the dealer in the middle of an unpleasant situation.

....

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DRankin
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2003-01-07          47094

I am pretty new to the backhoe thing, but it seems to me that when you raise the front end with the FEL you are concentrating all the weight and torque forces on the FEL mounts.

Also consider that you will almost never get an even surface to rest the bucket on, so you might get most of the weight on one FEL mount or another.

Then you drop the rear outriggers and you could end up with most of the tractor weight supported by one outrigger and the opposite corner of the FEL bucket.

Now if you lift the tractor with the backhoe and drop it back down you will be twisting/torquing the drive train in opposite directions, front and back.

Seems to me this is how tractors get twisted in the middle and break. Not saying there are not other unusual forces at play, but this seems to be the most obvious route.

Maybe it would be better not to raise the front end so that the front axle pivot can shed these loads.

Any counterpoints out there? ....

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marklugo
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2003-01-07          47099

The bucket acts as a brake to keep tractor from moving. It is only necessary to slightly tip bucket on edge and put mild pressure on it until you see the tires stand up. ....

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hardwood
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2003-01-07          47126

On my Deere 4300/ 430 loader/ 48hoe combo Deere doesn't recommend mounting the hoe without a FEL on the tractor. I'm sure that not only for backfill use but also for counterweight reasons. One of my main concerns on frame stress is the rear axles when going down the road, because your're not only carrying all the weight of the hoe but also part of the weight of the loader on the rear axles. I've never mounted the hoe without the loader being on, but I'll bet the front wheels would be off the ground. If I go more than a couple road miles I usually trailer the unit. ....

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TomG
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2003-01-07          47129

I always thought the main reason for digging in the loader blade was to keep the hoe from pulling a tractor into the hole. In addition, one of the risks in backhoe use is that the wall of a wide deep excavation can collapse leaving the stabilizers on nothing and the rear wheels on a steep slope, which is why manuals say not to dig close to the tractor. I guess I can imagine a loader keeping a tractor from sliding into a hole along with a excavation wall.

Anyway, I just want to be able to work a hoe without feeling I'm on a row boat. I use just enough loader and stabilizer pressure so I don't feel a need for Dramamine.

Like MarkL, I've never thought that any sub-frame is going to make a tractor bomb-proof and some may not be much good at all. Like MarkH, lifting the rear of a tractor with a hoe and then dropping it seems like a very good way to break something. So is pushing rather than pulling a box scraper. It seems to me that good operator technique probably is better than any engineering we're likely to see at keeping equipment from breaking.
....

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Peters
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2003-01-07          47134

The newer larger backhoes have full frames not to distribute the loads over the whole tractor. I notice the Kubota L35 also sports a full frame. As the L35 is designed as a landscapers tool it also is designed to hold the backhoe all the time. What does the BX22 have Mark? ....

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DRankin
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2003-01-07          47135

The ladder frame on the BX is made of steel plate that is 3/8 by 4 or 5 inches, depending on the location.
On the BX22, starting at the FEL mounts and moving rearward, the frame is doubled to 3/4 inch.
The whole rear end has been redesigned. There is a multiple layer, box shaped, steel frame under the seat that is one inch thick. Anyplace the hoe attaches is at least that thickness. All of the latches and attaching hardware are all at least one inch thick also.
It appears that someone did their homework on this one. It is very stout and stiff. ....

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hardwood
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2003-01-07          47137

Our 8000 series Deere farm tractors have a welded steel unit about two ft. long, as part of the main tractor frame between the differential housing and the transmisssion housing, from the transmission housing forward all other units are cast including the oil pan whitch is the frame member rather than the engine block. The engine can be lifted from the oil pan without splitting the tractor. I was told by a Deere engineer that without the welded steel segment in the frame that shock loads and torque would eventually crack a total cast frame as cast cannot flex. ....

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treeman
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2003-01-07          47138

Are the castings made from "gray" iron or "ductile" iron? There is a huge difference in the ability to handle stress and shock between the two. There is a big difference in price also. Just see the prices on bench vises. The ductile iron vises are 3 times the cost of the gray iron ones. ....

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TomG
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2003-01-08          47144

From somewhere I seem to recall that good quality castings are stronger for comparable cross-sections than mild steel. A ladder frame design may well be larger and heavier than traditional engine/case tractor design for comparable strengths.

Castings are used in high-quality machine tool beds because they are strong and don't deflect. Deflection destroys the accuracy of machine tools. Castings also are used in applications like high-load docks and stairs. Of course, shocks can be deadly and castings break. But then, mild steel does bend and eventually fatigues too.

Irrespective of steel or cast design, operator technique probably is best at minimizing shocks. Banging hoes or loaders into the ground is not good practice nor is carrying heavy loads at high grounds speeds over bumpy ground. Using ground-engaging implements without knowing the ground also wrecks equipment. It's hard to design a tractor that will withstand an implement snagging or hitting an obstruction at appreciable ground speed. I'm not sure I'd want to pay for or use such a product. Maybe manufacturers could do more operator education and less bombproof engineering.

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2003-01-08          47146

Treeman, I suspect some of the castings might be steel and I know some are aluminum. ....

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