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Mahindra - Starting problems

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dnsmithnc
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 21 North Carolina
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2008-01-05          149915

I have a 2000 Mahindra 4500 with around 325 hrs. Lately, the tractor barely turns over when I turn the ignition. The battery is new and fully charged. Cables are clean and attached well.

I was thinking maybe the starter is dragging. If so, how hard, expensive is this to fix. If not the starter, what else?

Also, I have a 5 gallon container of diesel that I had from the summer that now has a LARGE chunk of ice in it. There was no way that water could have got into the container other than through the nozzle where I bought the fuel from. Has anybody had a similar problem of buying contaminated fuel like this. What could this do to my tractor. It seems to run okay but, I am worried about long term effects.

Thanks



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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2008-01-05          149919

What does the battery voltage measure when it's not cranking and then when it is cranking? I don't know how the cables connect on that tractor but if the starter isn't well grounded it will cause problems. Does it never crank well? Or only when cold or hot? ....

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dnsmithnc
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 21 North Carolina
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2008-01-05          149925

Quote:
Originally Posted by kwschumm | view 149919
What does the battery voltage measure when it's not cranking and then when it is cranking? I don't know how the cables connect on that tractor but if the starter isn't well grounded it will cause problems. Does it never crank well? Or only when cold or hot?


It does turn over a little better when it is warm but, it does not spin nearly as well as it did when I got it with about 225 hrs. I mean, the last time I tried to start it, it just barely turned over. Again, brand new titanium battery from Advance Auto which is their highest grade, cables clean and well connected.

I had a the same grade battery from Advance before in this tractor and it did fine until recently when the tractor began having this problem. I thought the battery was bad, took it in and they gave me another new one. Same problem.


Any suggestions how to proceed with a diagnosis would be appreciated. ....

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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2008-01-06          149930

I don't know your tractor but some of these questions *assume* a negative ground. What does the positive battery cable connect to? What does the negative battery cable connect to? If the negative cable connects to the chassis the starter has to get the ground from somewhere. Is there a ground strap from the chassis to the engine? Is it in real good shape, with real clean (not rusted) and tight connections? If the positive cable connects to the starter what happens if you use a jumper cable to connect the negative battery terminal directly to an engine ground? Does it crank faster? The voltage measurements I mentioned before are relevant. If the battery measures 12.6V when you're not cranking and drops to 8-10 volts when cranking then there is excessive resistance somewhere. Might be due to a bad starter or bad starter ground. ....

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dnsmithnc
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 21 North Carolina
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2008-01-06          149934

Thanks kwschumm. I'll check it out using your suggestions. I'll let you know how it turns out. That is one thing I like doing is providing the problem and solution once it is found. ....

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candoarms
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1932 North Dakota
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2008-01-06          149936

Dns,

I recently heard that North Carolina has received some snow, and that it has been fairly cold in your area.

May I ask what the temperature was when you last tried starting your tractor?

Many thanks.

Joel ....

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kleinchris
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 269 Westminster, Texas
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2008-01-06          149942

Once again, Oggens Razor. Cold enough to have a chunk of ice in a can of diesel. ....

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dnsmithnc
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 21 North Carolina
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2008-01-06          149944

Hi Joel,

It might have snowed in the mountains but not in the piedmont where I am at. It was certainly cold enough to snow a few days back with low temperatures in the high teens in some areas close by.

But even today, with temperatures in the low 60s, the tractor doesn't turn over nearly as fast as it did when I got it. When the temperature was hovering around freezing the tractor would just barely turn over. I mean it was to the point where there was some hesitation between revolutions. Something else is definitely going on. ....

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candoarms
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1932 North Dakota
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2008-01-06          149945

Dns,

It's obvious that you have power going to the starter, but this is not an indication of having a proper connection.

Any loose electrical connection causes a whole lot of resistance. This will cause a voltage drop to the starter, as well as eating up a huge amount of current.

Starters call for huge current draws. If you don't have the proper amount of current available, the starter will have a difficult time turning the engine over.

I'm all but sure that you have a loose connection in the starter circuit. It could be a wire on the solenoid, or even the ground wire going to the tractor's frame. In most cases involving a weak starter, the ground wire is the culprit, but it could be either wire, and any connection.

Corroded terminals will cause the same problems. Oxidized terminals also act like resistors.

I'd clean and reinstall all of the large wires in the starter circuit. Take a wire brush to both connections at each terminal. Brush the electrical terminal on the wire, as well as the connecting terminal at both ends of each wire.

If this doesn't solve the problem, my next suggestion would be to take your starter in and have it checked out on the bench. You could have a weak connection internally.

Joel
....

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kleinchris
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 269 Westminster, Texas
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2008-01-07          149962

dnsmithnc,
with the info you have given, this sounds like nothing more than cold weather/ cold engine problems. First, you mentioned 0 degrees- F or C? cause if you talking 0 F there are a lot of machines that wont turn over perdiod in that kind of temp. Second, you mentioned that the tractor was still turning over slowly when the temp warmed up- that could be do to draining power from the battery back when it was 0 degrees. Or, how cold was it the night before? Steel won't warm up as quickly as the day does. ....

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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2008-01-07          149965

If you're operating in 0 degree weather a block heater would be an excellent idea, regardless of whether it solves your starting problems or not. ....

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dnsmithnc
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 21 North Carolina
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2008-01-07          149975

Quote:
Originally Posted by kleinchris | view 149962
dnsmithnc,with the info you have given, this sounds like nothing more than cold weather/ cold engine problems.First, you mentioned 0 degrees- F or C? cause if you talking 0 F there are a lot of machines that wont turn over perdiod in that kind of temp.Second, you mentioned that the tractor was still turning over slowly when the temp warmed up- that could be do to draining power from the battery back when it was 0 degrees.Or, how cold was it the night before?Steel won't warm up as quickly as the day does.


No, the coldest it was when I tried to start it was probably in the low 20s F. I have had several years of experience with this tractor and I can see that the engine is turning over much more slowly under similar conditions than it did a year or two ago.

When I said it turned over a little faster when it was warm, I meant that after I started it and ran it for 10 or 15 minutes it turned over a little faster. Still, it does not spin nearly as quickly as it did a year ago. Again, battery new, fully charged. It did the same thing with another fully charged battery. Something else is going on besides cold temperatures. ....

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dnsmithnc
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 21 North Carolina
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2008-05-07          153511

As the originator of this post and,a believer in follow up and giving those who replied with explanations and others with similar problems, here is the solution to the "Mahindra - Starting Problems".

It was the starter. It was not a ground problem {a definite possibility) or as some seemed to insist, a cold weather problem. (like I hadn't started the tractor in cold weather before) With only about 300 hours, and 3 to 4 hour usage after each startup, yes the starter was bad. Rather disappointing. I had the starter rebuilt for $123.00 and the tractor is starting fine. My only concern now is why the starter would go bad so quickly? ....

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kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 5275 South Carolina
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2008-05-07          153512

Quote:
Originally Posted by dnsmithnc | view 153511
.My only concern now is why the starter would go bad so quickly?


Could be more than one reason. Probably just a bad part or materials. Had a tooth break off of gear in my tractor trans, seemed to have been defect in the metal with just a little more hours than you had there. Cost, more than 10 fold your's. Kubota brand. Had a thumb fail on excavator, void in the metal where it failed. Such happens. Often a nagging worry remains, right? A bearing may have been defective, when installed could have not been lined up correctly and jammed, a small piece of metal could have been left after machining.

If repaired locally, did you ask what was bad with the starter? The starter is sealed and with tight mounting bolts, correct? It is strange they did not test the battery before they replaced it underwarranty. I am sure you know but just because a battery is their best line does not mean it has the amps for your tractor, even if same physical size.

BTW, did you figure out the source of the water in your diesel fuel? Find out who pumps a lot of diesel and buy there. If off road diesel is what you are using, you may find low use in winter. You may want to get a water filter to use. kt
....

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dnsmithnc
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 21 North Carolina
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2008-05-07          153513

Hi KT,

As for the battery, I used the same one before and it worked great.

I did ask what was wrong with the starter and was told, "just the usual stuff, bearings, brushes, etc."

As for the water in the diesel I was told something that makes good sense. Seems the diesel was in a plastic container setting under a shed for about six months. The container was about half full of fuel. Over that time, the container and fuel cycled through being warm in the day and cooling off at night. Warming in the day, the container and diesel would expand expelling the air in the container. At night it would pull in the cooler, moisture laden air. Over the course of the night, this new supply of air would cool condensing out it's supply of moisture. Over the course of several months of this, you have quite a bit of water.

Hey, maybe you or someone else can answer this. I have a 250 gallon metal tank about 2/3 full of diesel. It is about two years old. It came with the farm I bought. Do you think it is still good? I know gasoline would be pretty well shot but, I don't know about diesel. I know I would need to use a water and sediment filter.

Dave in NC.
....

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candoarms
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1932 North Dakota
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2008-05-07          153514

Dnsmithnc,

Other than the fact that your fuel may have some moisture in it, your bigger concern will be the bacteria growth that has taken place over the past couple of years.

Diesel fuels are known to promote the growth of certain bacterias. These bacteria colonies produce a heavy slime. The slime will quickly clog a filter.

It's not difficult to check the fuel, especially if your tank is mounted on an overhead stand. Moisture settles to the bottom of the tank. It's easy to drain it off any condensed moisture before using the fuel.

The bacteria problem is a bigger issue, as it will affect the entire fuel supply. However, it's fairly easy to tell if it's good, simply by rubbing a bit of it between your fingers. If it feels like Go-Jo or Goop handcleaner.....greasy or slimy.....it's shot.

Joel

....

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dnsmithnc
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 21 North Carolina
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2008-05-07          153518

Thanks Joel. Information that is good to know. ....

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kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 5275 South Carolina
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2008-05-07          153519

Dave, I try not buy any more diesel than I will use within a couple of months. With today's prices that gets easier. A couple of years ago my brother came across a 5 gallon can of diesel and without thinking on when he bought it poured it in one of his tractors. He replaced the filter once or twice and the last he said was having to pulled the tank.

Joel, will a filter not remove the bacteria? I know the first tractor I ever bought the salemans pointed this danger out to me. Then he went on to say, it will happen in the fuel tank on the tractor if the fuel sits in it long enough! OK, must use tractor. kt ....

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dnsmithnc
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 21 North Carolina
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2008-05-07          153522

Thanks KT for the advice. Problem is now, I have 150 or more gallons of diesel with nothing to do with it. ....

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candoarms
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2008-05-07          153526

KThompson,

A filter will remove the bacteria, but only if you're willing to change filters on your tractor with every three or four hours of use. It will plug up pretty quickly.

If the bacteria is in the bulk fuel tank, the filter at the base of the delivery hose will plug up very frequently as well.

Here's a little sermon on the issue from the good folks at the University of Wisconsin.

____________________________________

Ron Schuler, UW Extension Ag Engineer, recently reported that bacteria and fungus “infections” are possible in diesel fuel and can cause clogged fuel filters and fuel injection nozzles. This problem is most likely to occur when water accumulates in the fuel system, primarily the fuel tank. Also, it is more prevalent when an engine is not used for long periods of time. These microorganisms are able to live in the water and feed off the fuel.

The first sign of a problem is an accumulation of a mucous like layer on the fuel filter element /medium. Draining the fuel system will reduce but not eliminate the problem. There are biocides available to destroy the microorganisms in the fuel system. Power Service Product (Address P.O.Box 1089, Weatherford, TX 76086, 1-800-643-9089, psp@ powerservice.com) has a biocide called BioKleen for this problem. Another product is Pri-Ocide, sold by Power Research Inc. (6970 Portwest Drive Suite 180, Houston, TX 77024, 1-713-490-1100, pri@priproducts.com).

To reduce the risk of a microbial diesel fuel infection, drain the water trap in the fuel system frequently. When changing the fuel filters, look for the mucous like accumulation. If the mucous is present, use a bio-cide. Check with local fuel supplier as a potential source of the bio-cide.

Take steps to reduce the potential of water from getting into the fuels. Be sure fuel tank caps and/or covers are in place unless the tank is being filled or serviced. Fill the tractor fuel tank at the end of each day instead of in the morning, which reduces the potential for water condensation in the tank.

_________________________________________

See the link below.

Joel










....


Link:   Bacteria in Diesel Fuel

 
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kthompson
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2008-05-07          153529

Dave, I hope some with much more experience than me chimes in on this and it not repost asking the fuel use question.

Joel, if I understand you, the fuel filter will remove any contamination. The issues as I understand are first is there any problem with the fuel and then if there is just how often the fuel filter (which will remove them) has to be replaced. Correct?

So it may be one or two pump filters might solve the problem. Or you may need one every few gallons, correct?

Is there nothing than can be added after contamination to remove the fungus/bacteria where the fuel is useable? Very much understand this is why most here recommend adding fuel conditioner when you fill tanks.

Dave, if it turns out there is no reasonable way to filter the fuel, provided it is contaminated, then you may wish to consider other possible uses: there are heaters that will use it and not damage, it is used with certain chemicals for brush control (spray nozzles there also but different cost issue). Believe you are where you need to check the fuel and see the real condition it is in. kt
....

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jeff6575
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 3 Shelbyville, Tennessee
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2012-12-14          185722

I have a Mahindra 6500; similar issues but does not start in cold weather; battery is good but not strong enough to start tractor the first time; starts well after I put a charger on it; seems like something is dragging the battery down; maybe a short somewhere? Also have to jiggle the PTO lever to allow the tractor to start!! I installed a block warmer which has helped but not total solution?

Any ideas anyone???Mahind ....

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jkmoye
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 4 Liberty, Texas
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2013-02-04          186137

Having the same problem with my tractor... The PTO lever has a switch that you can adjust so that you don't have to continue to handle it to start the tractor. But even after handling this lever, mine is still clicking and clicking till finally there is a starter turn over. This multiple clicking back and forth is causing my battery to go down in voltage. SO what I have started doing till I can change out the solenoid is to use an old screw driver to jump across the solenoid to engage the starter and crank it... CAUTION SHOULD BE TO MAKE SURE THE TRACTOR IS NOT IN GEAR....THIS OPERATION IS DANGEROUS>.... I think my solenoid is bad. ....

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yooperpete
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2013-02-05          186147

Many of the Mahindra tractors are actually to an old Mitsubishi design that was sold to them. This design was used in the mid-late 1990's and sold as Cub Cadets. These tractors had starting issues with regard to voltage drops as the circuit went from the ignition key thru all of the electrical interlocks before going to the starter. The starter won't crank reliably at 8-9 volts. An inexpensive fix for this is discussed on many threads here. That may be an issue. Ice in the fuel is definitely bad and the fuel filter could be clogged. This all needs to be drained and flushed. Suggest using a fuel additive to prevent moisture build-up in the future.

Even though these may be an older tractor design, they are solid. My 1994 model Cadet is still running strong. ....

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jeff6575
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 3 Shelbyville, Tennessee
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2013-02-05          186157

Reference starting issues with your Mahindra tractor. I had the very same issue!! I just replaced the starter and now I have no problems. Tractor starts perfectly in 25 degree temperature. I do wait for the red light to go out (sometimes takes about 1 minute) prior to cranking. My solution was a "new starter"; makes me wonder if the starters on Mahindra tractors are deficient/bad even when new! Wish I had replaced the starter years ago! ....

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auerbach
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2013-02-06          186158

This thread is a half-decade old, but for others with the same issue, I find the best tool for both diagnosis and bypassing the problem is a $10 remote starter. That's a box with a button on it, and two wires coming out.

One wire clips on the positive (of your or another battery), the other to the starter terminal. Someone in the seat, in neutral, press the button and the starter is activated directly. Fast spin points to faulty battery, connections, or switch. No fast spin points to the starter. ....

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