Engine hours before rebuild
KH
Join Date: Posts: 1 |
2002-12-07 45859
Hello, what is an approximate of engine hours beore worrying about an overhaul(TC33D)? Also, what would an approx. cost for this service be? Thanks
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Engine hours before rebuild
TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley |
2002-12-08 45863
It depends on maintenance and use and the particular engine. I don't know about TC's but 5,000 - 10,000 hours seems to be around when many people start needing work. Some engines go a lot longer.
I think most owners aren't going to see a rebuild ever unless the tractor is getting commercial or ag use. It is expensive if needed though. Good machine shops can use techniques that may bring worn parts back to spec, but for shorter service lives, than new parts. That can be an alternative to very expensive dealer parts but machining isn't cheap either.
Art and others probably know what comes through their shops and their comments would be more specific than my impressions.
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Engine hours before rebuild
Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York Pics |
2002-12-09 45920
Depending on the type of use I'll put the minumum life at 3000 hours for that unit which is on the average 30 years of home owner use. Tom, one of the differences ifn the quality of a rebuild is what specifications you use. Chances are unless you have the right books as well as all the coresponding updates it is hard to get a good job out of anything other than a dealer. We rebuild to factory spec's. Some times we have to get another head because the one we are working with has been milled to much. Or the flywheel has been turned to many times and is not thick enough or it has been turned wrong because of procedures used for turning. We have found that there are three basic ways to rebuild, kind of like the white, black , grey thing. Definitly wrong, maybe it will live, and the right way which is the only way we can afford to do it and put our name on it. ....
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Engine hours before rebuild
TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley |
2002-12-10 45953
Art: I couldn't agree more. Inexpensive generally equals shorter service life and a faster return to maintenance problems.
I did go for an independent shop rebuild on my Ford 1/2-ton for around 2000 $CDN and a remanufactured engine from Ford was $3500 or so. I expect to get 75 - 100,000 km from the engine rather than 200,000 from a factory engine. At the time the body was seriously rusting away and I figured that the cheap rebuild was consistent with how long I expected to keep the truck. Since than I spent about as much as the purchase price redoing the body. Maybe I'll eventually regret not getting a factory engine--especially if new trucks don't return to actually being the 'tough heartland' things they're advertised as.
I think the seriously cheapy techniques used back when labour was very cheap compared to parts are long gone. Mechanics used to do things like knurl piston skirts and hand fit them to tolerances or ream valve guides and knurl the stems rather than buying new valves and guides. Valves with over-sized stems for use when reaming guides back to over-sized rounds may not even be available for many engines. Long gone are such techniques and good thing too because these patch ups didn't last very long.
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Engine hours before rebuild
cbauer
Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 2 Wisconsin |
2010-06-15 171556
I wouldn't count on the above replies with New Holland. I have a TC29D and had to have the head remachined at 560 hours. The machine is now back in the shop at 680 hours and has a motor that has scratches in the block from a stuck ring. This has been $6000 dollars of repairs in less than 700 hours and no more than 120 hours since the last time it was at the dealer and new holland wont cover a thing. These motors on the boomers are not rebuildable, since you cannot bore out the block and use oversized pistons because they dont make them. Basically a throw away part at a cost of 2000 dollars just for the block. Stay clear of these blue machines and go green. ....
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Engine hours before rebuild
auerbach
Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 2168 West of Toronto Pics |
2010-06-15 171558
Art, a bit off topic, but I've not heard of a flywheel needing turning. Like a brake rotor? Why would a flywheel ever need that? ....
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Engine hours before rebuild
earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan Pics |
2010-06-15 171568
Auer just like a rotor, a flywheel sometimes needs to be trued and the surface ground for optimal clutch performance. Rust, warpage, etc. have to be resolved. FWIW, hydros that are clutchless (not all are such as mine) don't have a clutch drive face---they are a hollowed out or dish-shaped flywheel.
Two types of hydro flywheels I know of have either a thin sheetmetal flex plate bolted to the outer perimeter of the flywheel with a splined center coupling the hydro pump slides into. An aside note, the flexplate is rubber-grommet isolated to reduce engine/and competing pump vibrations.
OR
The flywheel has gear teeth cut into the inside surface of flywheel wall. The hydro pump(s) has a gear on it driven by the flywheel. NH skid steers used straight-cut (versus helical) gears which are very noisey--Case on the other hand uses helical-cut and is very quiet.
And I couldn't disagree more about NH engines which for the compacts are made by Shibaura. Mine has 800 flawless hours on it. And those are abusive, demanding commerically-used hours. ....
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Engine hours before rebuild
Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York Pics |
2010-06-16 171578
Quote:
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Many of the clutch discs today in tractors are not the typical car type plates. They use metal in the pads and they can take the metal off a flywheel. Some flywheels between the wear and truing will only live through three clutch jobs before being worn to thin. Step flywheels are turned wrong by many shops as there are set spec's for the difference between the bolt area or flange where the pressure plate bolts on and face where the clutch disc does it's job. This will cut the life of the disc considerably if not kept to proper dimensions. ....
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Engine hours before rebuild
Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York Pics |
2010-06-16 171579
Quote:
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Parent bore blocks can be sleeved!!!!!! They do have to removed and taken to a machine shop but it is common to bore them out add a liner and put them back into service with standard bore dimensions. ....
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Engine hours before rebuild
hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 3583 iowa |
2010-06-16 171584
I used to have a full compliment of machine shop equipment, mills, engine lathes, etc, but have sold all but the lathe and some basic stuff now.
I never was near as good as some guys I knew in the trade, but it was pretty rare that they couldn't rebuild a "Throw away" engine, or most anything for that matter.
There are lots of things that changed in the metals they use now that I never got into but I'll bet the guys that are good at it have kept up. ....
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Engine hours before rebuild
auerbach
Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 2168 West of Toronto Pics |
2010-06-16 171585
Thanks for the explanations. I had assumed the only flywheel vulnerability was the teeth.
KH: I'm sure the major truck-engine makers would have an answer to your question, and aircraft engines have a "Time Between Major Overhaul," but with tractors there are many more variables. ....
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Engine hours before rebuild
hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 3583 iowa |
2010-06-16 171586
Auer;
I haven't dealt with a flywheel in years, but we used to use the star shaped clutch plate with a metal "Button" so to speak as the friction surface on gear drive loader tractors. They would outlast a fibre plate many times over but they did chew up the flywheel after a while.
I haven't kept up so I'm not sure if the "Ring Gear" on the modern tractor and truck flywheels is still replaceable. On the old Farmalls, they were shrunk fit so we would heat them and give them a quarter turn on the flywheel so the starter gear had some fresh teeth to grab.
Frank. ....
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Engine hours before rebuild
Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York Pics |
2010-06-17 171594
Quote:
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When working on UH-1's helicopters we had a 1,000 hour time on them before being replaced leaving 200 hours of grace so to speak over non military use. I'd perfer to keep ahead of this cycle!!!
Engine use as well as conditions normally are what might limit life or give extended life to a particular style or design of engine.
When people say they are all the same, it often is just to justify their own thoughts. I've seen engines that we couldn't keep a crankshaft in for 400 hours do to the type of dust. Nothing to do with the air intake, it came in through the rear crank seal! There are engines that to me anything over a couple of thousand hours and they are on borrowed time.
The metal used is a big difference and heavier doesn't normally fly as it is normally a crude steel instead of a higher grade stronger more dense material. We can see the differences when cutting and welding as to how clean it might be with less blow outs and more precision with less work. Kind of like working with wood with more knots in it in a simple way of looking at it! ....
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Engine hours before rebuild
auerbach
Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 2168 West of Toronto Pics |
2010-06-17 171597
Art, heard about an exam question that asked the advantages of helos over fixed-wing. One guy anwered, "Steady employment for Airframe & Powerplant mechanics."
You imply they're not touched until 1000 hrs (except for filling the fuel, checking the oil, and hosing out the barf). As I'm sure you know, many models require two hrs service per hr of flight. ....
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Engine hours before rebuild
Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York Pics |
2010-06-18 171630
That is the engine only at 1,000 hours to replace!!!!! ....
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Engine hours before rebuild
auerbach
Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 2168 West of Toronto Pics |
2010-06-18 171632
That is what you said.
It all explains why there's not a helo in every other garage (which a Popular Mechanics I read as a kid assured me there would be). ....
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Engine hours before rebuild
hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 3583 iowa |
2010-06-18 171634
Four guys in our community bought an airplane on shares. None were experienced in airpland maintinence or the cost of high octane fuel, etc.
They soon were wanting to sell their shares to each other. As one of them told me,"I thought restoring tractors was expensive". ....
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Engine hours before rebuild
Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York Pics |
2010-06-19 171657
There is nothing better then being able to have a look at something from the sky! The costs? Now I'd rather rent then own but then again maybe if I wasn't a farm machinery dealer I'd have made enough money I could afford to have that kind of a toy.
With the S@## hooks if you didn't take off with a case of hydraulic fluid you might have to borrow some when you landed half way through your trip. On the heuy's there was maintence that was needed at scheduled times and were about one for one. The older ones were often two hours of work for one of flying but they are working now with many that are reversed but that is still good job security!
I do love flying and I've even gotten my wife to enjoy it so that helps to justify spending a bit from time to time to enjoy it. I did promise her that I wouldn't take the controls while we are up and she's been happy! ....
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Engine hours before rebuild
auerbach
Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 2168 West of Toronto Pics |
2010-06-21 171688
Hardwood, most avgas is not all that high in octane, but is costly because of relatively low volume and competition, plus extra filtering, testing and storage requrements. And a friend just sold his Cessna diesel because he couldn't find avdiesel wherever he landed.
Art, what do you fly? I have a commercial (no longer current), and Murf's a pilot too. ....
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Engine hours before rebuild
Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York Pics |
2010-06-21 171694
Legally, I didn't but was trained in repair, of UH-1's. ....
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