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Adjusting hydraulic pump flow TC35

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WVNHTC35
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 5 Wheeling, West Virginia
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2007-12-08          149085

I have a 16LA loader on my machine and a set of rear remotes, I had thought I read on here before that you could adjust the hydraulic pump to a higher flow rate, can you do this? and if so, How?

Thanks


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DRankin
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2007-12-08          149092

I can't speak to that specific model, but generally speaking the flow rate is the flow rate.

You can make adjustments to the PRESSURE generated by the pump by adjusting the pressure regulator.

They are several schools of thought on that topic as to whether it is wise to turn up the pressure and if so, how much is too much.

I am sure others will chime in here as this topic generally stimulates a lot of debate.

Maybe you can tell us what you are hoping to achieve? Does the loader not lift enough weight? ....

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candoarms
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2007-12-08          149093

WVNHTC35,

You won't be able to increase the flow rate from the pump. It has a fixed output.

Additionally, increasing the output pressure is not going to help you when attempting to run a log splitter, or any other device that operates off of your rear rear remotes.

Your best option, when looking to run a log splitter, for example, is to purchase a PTO pump and connect it directly to your PTO shaft. You'll then be able to more than double your output flow.

Joel
....

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kleinchris
Join Date: Jun 2007
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2007-12-08          149095

WVNHTC35
I cant address your question because I don't know enough about the subject, but since we have a few other interested parties,(especially cando who has been on this topic before)- here is a new qeustion:

Knowing that PTO pumps start at about $400, and hydraulic pumps start at about $140- could a PTO adaptor be used and just turn a hydraulic pump? ....

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earthwrks
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2007-12-08          149098

Though there are variable displacement piston pumps which vary the flow, gear pumps (which this TC35 is as was mentioned) is not adjustable. What is/may be adjustable is the relief valve setting but that is not in/on the pump. But be forewarned if you start messing with it you could cause damage to the loader itself by overstressing it.

And sure, you can run a regular gear-type hydraulic pump off the PTO--providing the pump is rated for the input RPM and the rotation direction is correct. Some pumps can be be run either direction with no problems--some can't. Also, hydraulic pumps can be used as a motor too without any modifications whatsoever. ....

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candoarms
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2007-12-08          149101

Kleinchris,

I don't mean to repeat myself so often, but this topic seems to pop up on this board quite often.

Over the years, I've studied the possibilities of putting a log splitter on the 3-point hitch of my various tractors. None of the tractors I've owned were capable of putting out enough gallons per minute to run a splitter off of the rear remotes......and I now see that I'm not the only person who has faced this problem.

The ONLY solution available to guys like me, is to purchase a PTO driven pump designed to be run off of the PTO shaft. It is true that many hydraulic pumps will run off of the PTO shaft with some adapters and a little bit of engineering, but there aren't many that have the output flow required to meet the requirements of a log splitter.

It isn't necessary to purchase a new PTO pump. A new one would cost somewhere between 400-500 dollars. But, I often see them on Ebay for a lot less than that.

See Ebay Item# 230195978603 Currently $128.00

In addition to the PTO pump, you'll also need a large reservoir (approximately 20 gallons in size), hoses, fittings, a valve, and the necessary hydraulic fluid. You'll also need a simple bracket to keep the PTO pump from spinning, once it's attached to the PTO shaft on the tractor. Total cost, if everything is purchased new, would exceed 800 dollars. This price does not include the price of the PTO mounted log splitter.

The total price for such a package makes it cost prohibitive. It's cheaper to purchase a self-contained log splitter.

Joel ....

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DRankin
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2007-12-09          149102

I gotta tell you, I have split about 20 cords of wood with a 3 point splitter and a power beyond port on my Deere 4115...total hydraulic pump capacity 7.4 GPM.

Working alone I can split a cord of wood in 60 to 70 minutes. Maybe I am misinformed or just have low expectations, but that seems to be good performance to me.

And working at the tractors 2400+ psi limit there is certainly no problem with actual splitting power.

Even if I could speed things up a little bit with a PTO hydraulic pump (and a separate oil tank and a separate oil supply), it would not be worth several hundred dollars to do so.

the system works just dandy as is.
....

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candoarms
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2007-12-09          149103

DRankin,

You're fortunate to have 7.5 gallons per minute available to you. I'm limited to less than 5 gpm. I agree with you. It wouldn't be worth the money to go from 7.5 to 11.5 gpm.

Even at 5 gallons per minute, a log splitter will work just fine......but SSSLLLOOOOWWWLLLYYY.

I don't have the patience to stand there watching that splitter cylinder creep out at about 1 foot per minute. That's like watching my wife attempt to parallel park. hehehe.

Joel ....

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DRankin
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2007-12-09          149115

It would be interesting to know if we are on the same sheet of music...... Is the total output on your tractor 5 GPM?

My specs read "Steering Capacity 2.3 GPM, Pump capacity 5.1 GPM, Total Pump Capacity 7.4 GPM"

I read that to say that if it is sitting still and running at PTO speed that there is 7.4 GPM available to the Power Beyond Port, but I could be making a wrong assumption. ....

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Art White
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2007-12-09          149119



About twenty five years ago much of the country was in an energy crisis with the oil embargo. There are more xmas lights on right now then there was on xmas day that year! Amazing that the price of our fuel doesn't seem to change many peoples thoughts until the lights go out!
Anyway, we sold chain saws, splitters and everything to help poeple with fire wood. Splitters even then could be tractor mounted or self contained. The three point units were the most economical to purchase but it was soon found some tractors didn't work as well with them. Ford 5000's were a staple utility tractor but they only had 7gpm systems and many soon moved up to the larger tractors to run them. At that they only were about 12 to 15 with a 100 horsepower tractor on them! They could send out the help and have them cut and split wood for the farmer and his helps houses. One farmer I remember had five houses to split for, cost him 2,200 every two years for a new hydralic valve for the tractor! Others that did venture to up the hydralic pressure found that many hoses on tractors were only good for 2000lbs pressure. After the oil prices went down some stopped, but most of the others that had the tractor mount units swapped them in for self contained units. Why run a 30 horsepower tractor when a ten horsepower engine is more then enough? Just think that an 8 horse will push a 16 gallion per minute pump on a splitter! ....

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candoarms
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2007-12-09          149124

DRankin,

As I understand things, the total flow from the pump is a very misleading and useless bit of information. The amount of oil flow available to the rear remotes is the figure we need to pay attention to, and it comes out to be a bit less than the ideal numbers posted by the manufacturers.

The output flow, beyond the Rear Remote outlets (log splitter), is further reduced by the length of hoses, the number of bends in the line, the number of fittings and valves in the circuit, and the temperature of the oil. In reality, the total output available PAST the rear remotes is about 10% less than the manufacturer's stated output.

Joel ....

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candoarms
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2007-12-09          149125

Art White,

You're correct. A tractor's engine isn't a dedicated hydraulic pump power source. Most of a tractor's engine power goes to the PTO shaft. Only a small amount of the tractor's power is diverted to the hydraulic pump.

A log splitter with a dedicated engine is essentially using the entire engine output power to run a hydraulic pump.....much as would be the case when installing a PTO driven pump on a tractor.

A PTO driven hydraulic pump will easily outperform any internal tractor pump. This is because only about 4-5 horses are consumed by the internal pumps.

Joel ....

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DRankin
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2007-12-09          149127

Well, I guess my point is that whether I have 7 GPM, 5 GPM or even less, there is sufficient flow for a home owners level of wood splitting.

....

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earthwrks
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2007-12-09          149128

According to my Prince pump literature, it takes about 2hp for every gallon per minute. ....

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Art White
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2007-12-10          149151


EW that is the standard that is used. Trying to slow a piece down in years gone by it might have required a larger or smaller hose to give more power or speed to do a job. Today there are so many tricks out there for us to overcome a short coming of functions the only fault might be the cost. ....

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DennisCTB
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2007-12-10          149152

When I was looking into buying a log splitter I learned that one of the big things to be concerned about was having too small of a reservoir. If it is too small the oil will overheat. The idea of over heating the super UDT in my HST tractor was not that appealing considering how much the tractor cost and how expensive repairs are.

I found someone to share the purchase of a standalone splitter and I am happy that I did. Though the appeal of one less motor is alluring ;)

Dennis ....

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candoarms
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2007-12-10          149157

Dennis CTB,

You're right about the oil temperature being a concern.

Most PTO driven pumps will put out at least 11 gallons per minute. In order to provide time for the oil to cool before being recycled through the pump, most manufacturers suggest building an oil reservoir that will hold at least twice as much oil as the pump puts out.

For a pump that puts out 12 gallons per minute, the fluid reservoir needs to hold AT LEAST 20 gallons of oil.......perferably 25 gallons.

My tractor holds only three gallons of oil. I'm not sure I'd feel comfortable running a splitter all day long using my tractor's internal pumps. I much prefer the PTO mounted pump, coupled with a separate reservoir. It's not a cheap set-up, but it's still better than maintaining two engines.

Joel ....

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Murf
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2007-12-10          149166

Joel, I think your calc's are a little off there.

A 4" bore by 24" stroke cylinder with a 2" rod will extend at the rate of 1.5" per second, or fully extend in 16 seconds with a full closed / full open cycle of 28 seconds when fed 5 GPM.

BTW, a common small wood splitter has a 5 or 5.5 hp gas engine and a 2 stage pump that makes 7 GPM on low pressure, and just 1.2 GPM on high pressure. Even at that rate it will still make a lot of firewood in a day.

Best of luck. ....

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candoarms
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2007-12-10          149172

Murf,

Well, my calculations on the flow from the rear ports was pretty accurate, but my description of the cylinder operation speed was a bit exaggerated.

Things seem like they're crawling along when splitting wood at temperatures well below zero. (Logs split SO NICE when they're frozen solid)

Joel ....

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Murf
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2007-12-10          149175

I regularly use a splitter on my remotes, with the tractor set to a fast idle, about 1,500 RPM, it splits faster than I care to feed it or remove the split stuff. Even in the cold.

Best of luck. ....

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DRankin
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2007-12-10          149182

A couple responses: Most small tractors with HST's have an hydraulic oil cooler somewhere in the system. Even the BX has a fan on the drive shaft blowing ambient air over the HST.

If I was going to worry about overheating the oil supply, using a splitter is not where I would focus my concern.

I think the backhoe uses more oil capacity on a minute-by-minute basis than any other hydraulic application.

Even the running and gunning of heavy duty continuous loader work seems like it would utilize more oil flow than splitting wood. ....

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crunch
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2007-12-10          149186

I have an ancient American splitter I run off the rear remote with my JD4310. I picked it up for $300. For a homeowner it is a life saver. My daughter now wants me to wait until she comes home for the holidays so she can split wood with me. I imagine it is a little slow if this was for commercial operation. ....

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TxFarm
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2008-09-03          156467

I'm sure I am too late with this but I ran across an answer to your question when I was troubleshooting my problem yesterday. This is verbatim out of my owners manual: The hydraulic manifold block/diverter valve is located on the right-hand side of the tractor below the platform. The manifold block distributes pumpoil to the PTO valve, HPL valve, optional rear remote valves, optional front remote valve, and the transmission/rear axle reservoir.

The diverter valve can be turned with a blade screwdriver. In the 1 o'clock position hydraulic fluid is directed to the HPL valve and rear remotes (optional). When a front remote valve is plumbed to the three ports- (pressure out, pressure return, and sump or tank) the diverter valve must be turned counterclockwise to 11 o'clock position for hydraulic fluid flow to the front remote valve and the to the HPL valve.


Hope you have success with your problem!


....

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