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pyarbro
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2003-02-25          50064

I have a 610 that I recently changed fluids and filterson; it took quite a while to bleed the fuel system; and once started, it smokes (not really bad, as I did throw some Berrymans in the fuel)but now when it warms up, it begins to blow oil out of the crankcase ventilator tube-2-4 qts an hour....is there a blockage somewhere, do I just need to adjust the valves, are the rings frozen, or (HORROR) do I need new rings etc. REALLY need some advice on this one.
Thanks


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RickW610
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2003-09-14          63834

Did you ever get a solution to the blow-by. I have the same problem. THANKS ....

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pyarbro
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2003-09-16          64080

Rick, no idea yet. I've talked to quite a few people...best guess is going to be 1. new rings (maybe cylinders 2. head gasket is blown. We think the latter as it only blows the oil after it warms up... The tractor is being "tore down" starting this week, and as I get it figured out, I'd be glad to let you know. Phil ....

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Chief
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2003-09-16          64085

pyarbro,

How much Berrymans did you put in how much fuel??? Berrymanns if DEFINITELY NOT what you want to put in diesel fuel. Berrymanns is a strong solvent with chief amongst its constituents acetone. NOT what you want to put into a diesel. This is worse than mixing gasoline with the diesel. Depending on the concentration, this may have caused or contributed to a head gasket failure if it did not do more damage to the engine. Berrymanns has explosive ingition characteristics. A compression check will verify the you prognosis. NEVER put anything but a diesel fuel additive or conditioner in diesel fuel. For severe cold use, mixing in some kerosene is OK but not gasoline additives. Hope it is something else. Let us know what you find out. Good luck on the repair. ....

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pyarbro
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2003-09-17          64111

Used 1 oz. of berrymans summer diesel conditioner; it's the weaker of the three diesel products they sell. Normally use it twice a year; in a full tank of diesel. Also annually disassemble the injectors and clean them as well...so I just can't attribute the blowby to the Berrymans...but never can tell. As last stated will be rebuilding the engine next week...will let everybody know.
Phil ....

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Chief
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2003-09-17          64115

When you said Berrymanns I thought of Berrymans B-12 carb. & fuel injector cleaner. What you used was fine. May just be a case of old age and she finally gave up the ghost. What kind of oil did you put in the engine when you changed the oil? How much oil came out vs. how much oil did you put back in? Reason I ask is that some of the older engines used a thermal convection cooling system vs a pump type and they were prone to heavy sludge build up in the engine. I had an old Cub 154 Lo Boy that would do this. Sometimes heavy sludge accumulation can build up to the point that it blocks off the drainage of oil from some parts of the engine. The owner has the oil pan plug removed and nothing more comes out and they naturally assume all the oil is drained. When they refill the crankcase with oil, they put in the called for amount and now the engine is over filled with oil. If this is the case, the crankshaft would sling it around causing a mess and sometimes the condition you describe. Did you go back and check the engine oil level again? (bear in mind this scenario is pretty unlikely) The owner's manual for my 154 Loboy called for periodically adding kerosene to the engine and flushing the sludge out belive it or not. More likely in an engine this old would be a rusted through head gasket or crapped out rings. What is unusual is that with a blown head gasket there would be other symptoms such as coolant in the oil, oil leakage around the head gasket, a cylinder miss, hard starting and also the condition you describe. If the rings were shot, the engine would be tough to start in most cases and really hard starting in cold weather. Have you been using ether to assist starting this engine? That can contribute to these problems. In any case; hope you figure it out and get off on the cheap. Good Luck! ....

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pyarbro
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2003-09-17          64205

Ahh!!! You seem to hit on every one of the comedy of errors that I went through. I bought the tractor with about 460hrs on it; it had been meticulously serviced while in use, but hadn't been really run (twice a year start-ups only) for about 13 years. Ran great, used it for about a year, and decided I really needed to fully service it: change all filters, fluids, etc. The tractor worked hard and deserved it, and I fully intend(ed) to continue the strict maintenance regimen. Sooo, I got it all done, primed up the fuel injection, and it wouldn't start...it tried but wouldn't go. Then I grabbed a can of ....yes I did....ether, and gave it a squirt while turning it over. (no, I didn't do it while NOT cranking, I've seen what that does) and it started right up, and was blowing a little smoke. Not bad, no more than it would every now and then anyway. I let it warm up, and noticed oil BLOWING (not dripping) out of the crankcase ventilator tube. I immediately thought: OMYGODWRONGOILFILTER, (had to cross reference it, maybe it was wrong) and put the old filter on. Same thing continued. Turns out it blows about a quart every 20 minutes, so the oil volume question becomes moot, and I use CAT oils. The tractor really doesn't care as long as I put oil in it. But, it really bugs me. It only blows once it warms up. No fluid exchange in any system at all. The original owner came out to look at it, and his first thought was that it starts to easy to be rings, but he THINKS he feels a miss, and his guess was a head gasket around the #2 cylinder (why #2, I can't figure that one out...). I tried loosening the oil filler caps, checked valve lash; now I get to do a cold and then hopefully warm compression check. Then I get to take it all apart. I guess I just keep hoping for someone to say: just flip that doohickey over and it'll stop all that. I am extremely thankful for your comments, it helps to hear that my thought processes are at least in the ballpark.
Lessons for others (and myself), (10 commandments):
1. ether is the devil
2. ether is satan
3. using ether is a sin
4. high compression and ether are a bad bad combination, even if your grandaddy still uses a can a day on his old Massey-Ferg.
5. Make sure the fuel injector pump is on a cam lobe BEFORE you prime your injectors.
6. Check all cross-referenced filters with the guys in Tarlboro.
7. Check your oil level everyday. (emphasize the period)
8. Always a good idea to have someone check what you are doing, especially when you are doing it for the first time.
9. Diesel smoke ALWAYS means something, it may mean it's ok, but always notice a change.
10. Ether, did I mention ether is bad?

Thanks, Phil Chief, that last part of self-recrimination wasn't for you, but anyone else that reads this, Thanks again. ....

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Chief
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2003-09-18          64235

How far have you gotten the engine torn down? Hopefully it is broken rings on the bad cylinder. The other cause and I hate to say it is a blown piston (hole in crown). Are you going to try pull the engine apart with the block still in the tractor frame? You make be able to do this and re-establish a nice cross hatch pattern with a drill and honing bit/brush. If all else is OK; rings, bearings, and seals should have you on your way provided the cylinder head and deck are true. I am not sure if this engine has cylinder sleeves like the John Deeres do, but that would be nice! Hey man, sorry for your misfortune. Hope you can get it up and running on the cheap. Buy the way, if and ONLY if you feel the engine needs a little helping hand to get started and this should RARELY be the case......... think WD-40 instead of either. My Dad uses ether to start an old Case tractor he has and it will not start without it now; even on the hottest day of the year. I worked on the cold start aid for him and got it working (on this tractor it is a heating element that vaporizes the fuel into the intact track) but he had been using ether for so long that it just barely would start using the cold weather start assist. The WD-40 is not an ideal solution but is much better than ether but you have to remove the air filter to use it effectively. ....

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pyarbro
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2003-09-23          64632

Chief, latest update:

Compression check showed a 100lb drop in #3 cylinder. All cylinders are about 100 lbs BELOW spec. Went ahead and began teardown on the tractor. Head gasket looked good, #3 cylinder head was crusty as heck (as was injector). Cylinder walls are smooth as glass without even a ridge at the top. I'm taking the head by a machine shop to get "eval'd" for a crack; if that is good, I'm going to reassemble with a new head gasket and recheck compression. Also am going to use a different compression guage adapter (for the fuel injector cylinders) and see if that makes a difference in my numbers. All pistons look pristine except #3 and it's crusty. No holes, cracks, nothing. I really think I've got a cracked head ($545.52 from Long) or its just a problem in the head gasket I can't see ($80.75 for valve grind gasket set). We'll see. Thanks, Phil ....

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Chief
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2003-09-23          64635

I am thinking along the same lines but the #3 cylinder acts like oil is getting into it somehow. I am hoping that it may have been a bad head gasket all along and you just did not notice it because it was a small leak. The ether may have done it in the rest of the way. Sure hope it is nothing more than a head gasket. Make sure you check the head and the block deck for being true and straight. If it is not, you will end up doing the job again. Good luck! ....

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pyarbro
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2003-09-23          64636

Wilco. Thats one of the reasons, I'm dropping it by the machine shop: sheck for straight and true, use scope to check runners and passages-not total insurance, but pretty fair start without rebuilding the head. Thanks!!! ....

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pyarbro
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2003-10-06          65653

UPDATE!!!!!
Finally got it all apart this weekend. The governor was a bear, as were the oil lines.

Upon removal of the pistons, 1,2,& 4 had a line of sooty sludge between the oil wiper and second ring. Piston # 3 was a different matter. The top ring was broken into 5 pieces, and a piece of piston "ridge" was broken off between # 1 & 2 rings. Absolutely no scoring of the cylinder walls at all in any of the cylinders-the inside of the engine looks pristine, for lack of a better word. The plan now is to hone the cylinders, re-install new rings along with a new piston to be ordered today, and then get that big pile of parts stacked on my barn floor put back together. So far I am able to do this without cracking the case and splitting the tractor!! Hope my luck holds out. Phil ....

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Chief
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2003-10-06          65659

Sounds like you are on top of the problem. In all likihood, the #3 piston may have had some damage or flaw that was there and the ether made it worse. Or it was just #3 piston's time to go. ;-) Bearings and crank look good? While you have it apart, if you have a diesel or tractor shop near by, might be a good idea to have the injectors checked but then again, if it was running good before this and they appear OK; I am a strong believer in the theory "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!" Good luck on the repair. Let us know when she is converting dead dinosaurs to smoke and noise again. ....

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TomG
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2003-10-06          65663

Sounds like a great piece of luck and it does sound like you're on top of it. I wonder if there was a ridge at the top of the cylinder and if so whether it was reamed? Ridges can result from normal engine wear. The times I've taken pistons out the top on gas engines I've had to ream the ridge before I could get the pistons out. I imagine the ridges would be located at the top of the upper ring travel and might contribute to broken top rings--especially if there was excessive rod bearing clearance.

I'd probably do some spec checking while I was in there but mostly because I kept my old micrometers and stuff. I might even have some old plastigauge to check the rod bearing clearances. I guess there'd be a chance that the rod is bent or otherwise messed up, and a new or at least thoroughly checked out rod might be a good idea.

Maybe there's some other stuff to check as long as you're in there. It'd really be a disappointment to go to all this work and not correct a problem that broke the ring all the while assuming that the problem was a defect in the ring. Don't know, maybe this idea is more theoretical than practical.
....

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pyarbro
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2003-10-06          65668

Thanks, yep one of them little ole localized ether explosions. I will try to bum a camera and post some pics. Bearings look good, as does crank. And as a matter of fact I've got a complete spare set of injectors that I'm going to slap on, just for grins. ....

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pyarbro
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2003-10-06          65669

Again thanks; No perceptable ridge at all in the cylinders; as a matter of fact the #3 wasn't even scratched at all. Regardless, I guess I get to see if I still remember how to hone a block. I've got the old 3 stone set-up, but a buddy of mine has one of them thar new fangled ones that looks like a sack of marbles on strings. Also, even though the bearings look good, I'll probably try to stretch my plastigage skills as well....besides I like theories, they usually work better than real life. ....

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TomG
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2003-10-07          65714

Theories work even better when you read the background as I just did. I forget this was an ethered tractor with 460 hours on it. Now that I've read it, I don't suppose you'd expect to see a ridge, and checking things like valve guides for wear likely wouldn't find anything interesting.

Well, back to theory. I imagine the ring broke because there was pre-ignition way before TDC and the engine kept rotating the piston up against the igniting ether. Everything would have received a much greater than normal shock. I don't know if rings in diesels are by far the most fragile component and if so if that's adequate protection for the rod, wrist pin, bearing insets, crank journal etc. I suppose in an aircraft engine everything replaceable would be replaced and the crank would be magna-fluxed, but diesel engines are more robust than aircraft engines and tractors don't have so far to fall.

In practice I think I'd do exactly what you're doing, as this is mostly an intellectual exercise. However I might go for a new rod if the price left me some breath. I would check the crank journal for out of round ahead of vertical and I don't know if something like Prussian Blue would be adequate for checking if the valves and seats are still good or even if it's worth the effort. Theory can waste a bunch of practical time. ....

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pyarbro
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2003-10-07          65748

Well, now that you mention it, I do have a bottle of prussian blue...I thought nobody remembered that old trick. Actually price wise, the piston came in pretty cheap at 66 bucks. The ring set and gaskets ran to about 300 bucks.

Last night I installed the new rings on the old pistons after cleaning them, new piston should be in today. Tonight I'll hone the cylinders; Plan to dip the stones in a light machine oil, and barely touch the cylinder walls with the same. 240 grit then 400 grit. Wash it all down, lube it all up and reassemble it.
Prior to all that I'll spec the components per service guide. Them thar Romanians put lotsa numbers in de book, en ah reckon to us'em.
So, the theorist will prevail. Phil ....

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Murf
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2003-10-07          65751

Speaking of ether detonation, and the damage from same, I was at the engine rebuild shop today picking up a redone Wisconsin. I asked them their opinion on what goes first from grenading an engine with ether, it was a unanimous decision.

The single most common damage is a hole blown through the face of the piston. It seems that the combination of the cylinder walls and the lands (the 'meat' between the rings) is strong enough to hold quite a load and the piston is the sacrificial part of the equation. I guess you proved the point with a $66 piston instead of a blown cylinder wall.

Hopefully you can get it back together despite the langauge barrier without any spare parts left over.

Best of luck. ....

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TomG
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2003-10-08          65795

Not likely on a 460-hour tractor but just hope you don't need any other old tricks like knurling things and then turning them back to size. I've even dimpled shafts with a centre punch to get them up to size but not for many years. New parts look cheaper now but maybe there's just less time. ....

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pyarbro
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2003-10-10          65960

Well, Had a little piston ordeal so far this week. My first order ended up being for a Long 510; so it didn't quite fit. New one JUST got in will advance from there and let everyone know!!!re-assembly starts this weekend after friday nights football game. ....

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TomG
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2003-10-11          66005

Sat morning: 7:40 a.m. What! Not back together yet? Game must have gone into over-time.

Good feeling the first time an engine you've been into turns over and catches--maybe even better than a game. I remember not being able to wait and wnet from a late party to cleaning pistons and gasket surfaces until daybreak. Hope it goes well and you're rewarded with a nice solid diesel roar.

I did disappoint myself once when I rushed things too much wanting to hear a gas engine run and forgot to ballpark the valve clearances. The engine wouldn't start and I thrashed around for awhile wondering why till I figured out that the valves weren't opening. ....

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Chief
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2003-10-16          66370

pyarbro, what is the latest? Haven't heard from you lately and the suspense is killing us. Things coming along all right? ....

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pyarbro
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2003-10-16          66374

Well....She is all back together. All carefully honed, torqued, lubed. I finally had to resort to my 10 year old to start a pair of oil tube bolts that attach to the oil pump, that attaches to the governor; I then bled the injection system, it cranked for a few turns on its own. Now, it's just being obstinate. So tonight (after thursday night football) I'll re-bleed the injection system again, and give it another shot. Fortunately, ether is lacking amongst my selection of mechanikin' tools. I think I had just pushed it a little too much last night. I had spent two days trying to get those 2 bolts in, and was seriously considering using a ball peen hammer to create a new joint in my hand to reach them, when my 10 yo wandered in trying to corral a wayward dog that had decided to assist me. After seeing his obvious utility, I put him to work...only after he had cajoled a new Game-Boy game out of me. Ah, well the price we pay. Hopefully, I'll be able to give a two thumbs up by this weekend...Thanks for the support!!!!
Phil ....

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Chief
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2003-11-05          68089

Phil,

It's been almost 3 weeks. What is the story. Is she converting dead dinosaurs to noise and smoke? ;-) We're anxiously awaiting with baited breath! ;-) ....

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Chief
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2003-11-25          69627

Phil, it has been almost 6 weeks since we have heard from you. I sure hope that is not bad news. I think we would all like to here what the latest is. Don't throw in the towel on us! Hope she is makin' smoke and noise. ....

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pyarbro
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2003-11-27          69812

SORRY!!!!; Well the rebuild went well, as you recall; so good that the day I got it running, I clipped, bladed and plowed for about 4 hours. The next day I went and cranked her up, and she cut off on me. Out of diesel, so I reloaded it, rebled, and started it. Only ran for 2 minutes then stopped. Rebled about 3 times, started and ran for 2 minutes. Okay, got some garbage from the bottom of the tank in the filters...so I put new ones in, rebled it...and nothing. For DAYS and NIGHTS of biblical proportion I blew every line out, drained the tank, rebled; put a new fuel pump on (nice story there, I will have pics this weekend), broke a filter base!!!, generally did everything possible. I really felt like I trashed my injector pump. Yesterday, I even went as far as looking at buying a new tractor, I was so disgusted. Through all of my checks, the fuel just wasn't getting through the secondary filter; I put new filters (3) on, used a fiberoptic scope to check every little passage in the filter mount, and still no fuel was coming through. I decided to just take my screwdriver and poke a buncha holes in the filter top. So I went out, took the filter off, and the gasket came off too. Now the basic problem was no fuel getting through the filter; the reason was that the old original gasket was tucked up nice and neat into the mount, so the filter couldn't seat, so no fuel went through. After wetting my drawers, I corrected this little problem; bled the injection system one (1) time, and it cranked right up. Now I got this pesky little thumping sound coming out of the rear drive.....ain't life great!!!!Pics and more this weekend!!!Thanks all!!! ....

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TomG
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2003-11-28          69824

Dang! Sorry to hear that and I guess it's the exception that defies the 'no news is good stuff.' I guess it's a good reason why we haven't heard about the outcome.

I haven't been through one of these horror stories in a long while but I've been through enough of them so I just don't tear things down anymore unless I can't avoid it. Sympathies from here, and not much to be thankful for in the tractor world I guess. Although I can keep myself from tearing down tractors most times, I'm not so successful with Windows operating systems and I have a stock of horror stories from my fixing the computer system efforts. Just happy the tractor's been reliable. Hang in there! ....

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Chief
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2003-11-28          69855

Wow! Sorry to hear you had such a chinese fire drill getting it running after you got off to such a good start too! I would think that whatever is going on in the rear drive at this point is pretty much out of you hands and would require rebuild or replacement. My old Cub 154 made all kinds of knocking noise from the pto shaft but I had spent so much money in parts to fix it that I just said the heck with it and let her rip. I tightened a few pulley keys up on the shaft but it lasted for 10 years and was going strong when I trader her in. Just out of general purposes; have you checked the oil level in the drives? Has it been replaced anytime recently. I doubt this would make much difference but you never know. Anyhow congratulations on a very successful engine rebuild! ....

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Chief
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2003-12-08          70528

pyarbro, any news on the thumping noise coming from the rear drive? Have you tried to narrow down the probably area the noise is coming from with a mechanic's stethoscope? ....

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Chief
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2003-12-14          71154

Phil, how about an update on your tractor. Sounds like no news is good news? Any news on the noise in the final drive? ....

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Chief
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2003-12-25          72204

Phil, this is not a good sign. :o( Been over a month since we heard from you last. Hope that flu bug going around has not got you. Any word on the noise from the rear drive? Hope to hear the latest from you in the New Year! Merry Christmas and all the best for the New Year! ....

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Hammerhaed
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2004-02-26          77972

Look at the ends of the rocker arm shafts, there should be an orfice plug in them. If they ain't there, that's your problem!!!!I've been A Long dealer for 10years. Ihope it helps!!! ....

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