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John Dvorscak
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2001-03-12          25398

Hello:I need to re-stone about 500 feet of driveway. I have a JD4100 tractor with loader and a back blade. The stone supplier will deliver the stone and unload it in one big pile. What is the best method to spread the stone and grade it? Should I get a york rake?

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JeffM
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2001-03-12          25399

John, my method would be to get the stone dumped near the middle of the drive if possible. Then I would use the loader to distribute buckets of stone starting from the far ends toward the middle. After I dump each bucketful I would backblade it roughly with the bucket (1 pass) to approximately the desired depth. After I had distributed the length of the driveway, I would use the rear blade to get final grade and desired crown or slope. A landscape rake might make the job a little easier in the final grading, but not enough for me to go out and buy one. If you can borrow one, that's an different story. I don't have any experience with either rear blades or rakes yet, so experienced folks on this board may give you better info. I have, however, spread stone over driveways and walks before using just a tractor or skidsteer loader and this distribution method seemed very effective to me. (I got real good at backblading with a bucket - practice, practice, practice) Another way is the "bulldozer" method where you keep pushing material away from the pile to roughly the desired depth working out towards the ends of the drive. Maybe someone will have a reason why this works better or faster. ....

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Murf
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2001-03-12          25403

John, if the stone is to be delivered by a dump truck it is far easier to have the driver spread it for you. Almost every truck I have ever seen has a chain at each side of the tailgate, this is to control how far it opens when dumping. Any driver with even a little experience can set the chains and drive forward while tipping the box, spreading the material at a surprisingly accurate rate, and in a nice, neat, approx. 9' wide path, all that is left is to 'massage' it into the exact location. Best of luck. ....

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Bird Senter
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2001-03-12          25404

Hey, John, just start like Murf said and finish like JeffM said; nothing to it. LOL Like Jeff said, I suspect those rakes are nice to have, but I don't have enough use for one to buy it, so I'd just use my front end loader and box blade. ....

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JeffM
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2001-03-12          25406

Murf, you just saved me a couple of hours of loader work this coming summer when I'm going to put in a new driveway! So obvious, too. I just have to have my excavation work done before the stone is delivered. See, that's the difference between us hobbyists and you professionals - you'd go broke having fun the way I do! ....

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Rob Munach
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2001-03-12          25409

Around here, the stone is delivered in single or tandem axle dump trucks. The drivers are pretty adept at dumping it pretty evenly along the whole driveway. ....

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JJT
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2001-03-12          25412

I have even less experienc with computers and keyboards. Spilling your stone as you back up might be easier if you have to fill in some areas. If you can borrow a york rake with wheels to gauge your pitch it will cut the learning curve down to a couple of minutes. Finish off by dragging a metal bed frame over the drive several times and you will be amazed at the quality of your work.
Good Luck JT ....

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Alan L. Lewis
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2001-03-12          25427

Stone??? Is that the same as gravel? If so, I'd have the dump truck drop it along the drive. ....

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TomG
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2001-03-13          25435

I don't know if this is a first tractor project or not. However, drives that need dressing material often need other maintenance as well. Things re-crowning, ditching and widening eroded areas of fill need to be done periodically. There may be some other projects that need doing before the stone, and they might be even more interesting. All maintenance can be done with a loader and back-blade, but I prefer a box scraper for grading. The trouble with a blade is that if you have to make a cut, most of the cut material comes off the blade ends, and you don't necessarily want it dumped to the side. End plates on a blade cures this limitation. Many blades also don't have enough weight to cut compacted material, but extra weight can be strapped on top. York rakes are good at final smoothing, but not so good if cutting is required. Spreading with a loader works best back dragging with the bucket floated. If appreciable new material is added, then compacting is a good idea, and compacting can be done with a loader. Back-drag a fairly flat bucket while holding down-pressure. When compacting, there's very little front-wheel steering, and brake steering has to be used. Spreading with the dump truck is a good idea that I'll bet saves more than 2-hours. After a time or two you'll just know how long something takes. In the meantime, think that a tandem load is 15-16 yards, and maybe 12 yards would have to be moved an appreciable distance. Figure the number of bucket loads from the bucket size, the average distance moved and the average speed--including loading and dumping. I don't know the answer, but I'll bet the distance is around 100' and the speed is 2-mph or less. I imagine the result is quite a bit longer than 2-hours. ....

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TomG
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2001-03-13          25436

Alan: There is a formal system for classifying aggregates that I really don't know. However, common usage depends a bit on where you're located. Here, stone generally means a clean glaciated stone, and the size depends on usage. For example, septic stone is smaller than cobbles. Gravel is a mixture of sand and small stone (also called pit run I believe), and most larger aggregate is called crushed rock (maybe crusher run). If it’s graded, there are terms like pea gravel to describe size. Most people around here use gravel because it compacts and freezes. The excess sand washes out and leaves a fairly durable layer of small stone. Appreciable amounts of crushed rock are avoided, because it doesn't compact or freeze well, and often more of it ends up in the ditch than on the drive. Actually aggregate is very specific stuff. A curious side-note is that several mid-eastern desert countries import sand from Australia. Desert sand cannot be used to make concrete because it is too rounded. ....

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KGryder
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2001-03-13          25459

I just had a 105 tons of gravel spread on my drive. I was all set to smooth the gravel after the trucks left but it really didn't need anything. I had borrowed a rock rack so went ahead and pull some gravel into some spots the trucks couldn't reach. As long as the gravel isn't froze together they can spread it better and faster than you can with a loader. ....

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Ted Kennedy
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2001-03-14          25487

John, I'm coming in late on this thread and really don't have too much to say except that Murph is right about the dump method. Every stone drive I put in I have the driver set his dump gate and drive out. If you have a 500 foot stone drive, and a good tractor, purchasing a rake really isn't out of the question. I've found the best way to maintain a stone drive is with the rake. Using the bucket heel is marginally better for back grading with a small machine because it places less stress on the bucket curl cylinders, using the front edge or lip puts on the most strain. When I started landscaping I used the bucket exclusively for back grading on dirt and on stone, and wore one out at 1200 hours. A $300 used york is a lot cheaper. ....

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Chief
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2003-05-06          54416

Concure totally with Ted's post. I have about 2,000 feet of gravel drive way. I had the dump truck driver spead it with his truck and periodically I maintain it with my Land Pride 1584 Landscaping rake. The rake does an excellent job at evening out the gravel and filling in low spots and does not break up the gravel pack near as much a blade. ....

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DRankin
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2003-05-06          54435

Hey chief, I have been using a chain harrow with the teeth pointed up. It does a great job, especially since I don't have a rake, at least the three point variety. ....

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JParker
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2004-01-19          74493

I know this is an old thread, but if anyone sees this...

I plan on installing a new drive from scratch through the middle of a field. Presently it has a pretty good growth of pasture grass & layer of top soil.

Do I need to cut out the top soil and turf or can I just put down the base and then crusher run topping?

Also, in a few places, I need to remove some side to side roll. I haven't had a lot of luck with the FEL or borrowed back blade since they are both parallel to the axles.

Any suggestions?

Do they make a front (or rear) blade like a dozer that can be tilted side to side using the hydraulics? ....

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harvey
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2004-01-20          74517

I would cut out 4-6" of the top soil and sod. Save it for top soil later.

A box scraper with scarfer teeth will break up the sod. Scoop out with FEL.

If you are only going to have cars or light pick ups 4" is probably plenty and just use crusher run to back fill. If you have any wet spots in it you may or should put down some ground fabric. ....

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grinder
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2004-01-20          74519

We owned a family gravel business and have supplied material
for a lot of roads. I have the "roids" to prove it.
Not sure of the climate issues in Va. but here in the tundra
the accepted practice when crossing a field is:
1)stake it out and rototill it.
2)pile up that valuable loam, and subgrade.(you might need it later to dress it up.
3)Lay in your good drainage material base.
4)subgrade with a crown in the center(control that water)!May want to roll it.
5)lay in you finish product. May want to roll it.
If you don't remove the topsoil it may work it's way up into you finish and then you will have a mess.
good luck.
the sub grade is critical, as is stormwater runoff. Make a place for it to go
keep your road dry. ....

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kubotaguy
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2004-01-20          74523

JParker:
You are not too far from where I live and when I had my drive put in, I cut the topsoil out and then had shale put in then put the crusher run over it. You have to move the shale around as the truck can't really spread it. With the large dump trucks driving over it, it really helps to compact it well. The shale is less expensive and provides an excellent base. The crusher run will fill in if there are holes in the drive from the shale.
Good luck ....

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TomG
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2004-01-20          74526

Pretty good road building advice, and I'd sure study the drainage and any grades required. If there are problems they have to be managed or the road will require lots of maintenance and may not always be passable. If it's in a snow area, some finishes are easier to clear than others.

I use the 3ph leveler to cut-side grades with my scraper (my leveler is crank adjustable though). I have to hold the 3ph up so only the down end of the blade cuts. It takes a few passes but eventually the entire width of the blade is on the new grade. Some back blades may have this adjustment but a 3ph leveler likely would work as well. It can be done but 3ph implements generally lack down-pressure so they don't work like a dozer even with hydraulics.

Many tillers will chew up sod. I don't have one so I use box scraper scarifiers. I first cut along the length and then go back across. The cutter usually pulls up most chunks of sod on the second pass and leaves most of the soil if the top-link is extended. The box collects the sod, and a road width likely equals about a full box. soem of the chunks are large enough to use elsewhere but I wouldn't count on too much. Laying it is sort of like solving jig-saw puzzles too. ....

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Murf
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2004-01-20          74557

JParker, although Grinder didn't say so explicitly the worst thing for any travelled surface is water.

It can kill it in so many ways, frost can heave it, erosion can remove it, ice can make it impassable....

Do yourself a BIG favour, prepare the area properly and THOROUGHLY before you do anything else. Any soil or conditions that can hold moisture MUST be eliminated.

A nearby landowner at our hunt camp thought he would build an 'economy' driveway into his place, the neighbours and the local contractor tried to reason with him to no avail. They did nothing, not even remove stumps or boulders, merely laid 'B' granular (pit run) on top of what was there. His logic was to spend on material instead of machinery, thus building the drive up high enough to be above potential problems, or so he thought.

By the following summer what little bit of it that was left in place was barely manageable on an ATV.

He then had the contractor come back and dig a proper base for the driveway right beside the existing one, then he just bulldozed all the material off the top and into the hole, then added more on top again.

It probably only cost him an extra $10,000 to save a little money up front, maybe he's a politician, who knows?

Best of luck. ....

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grinder
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2004-01-20          74559

Murf
Water is the enemy,seems like in everything you build.
It was hard to explain it in a paragraph, I was trying
to make my point with the subgrades,hard to explain the
importance to some one who hasn't done one. I am glad
you reiterated it. I wish he was closer and had a dozer
and a transit handy, I love that stuff !
....

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grinder
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2004-01-20          74560

Murf
You work on golf coures right?
Check out my home town course.
Rocks were 17' deep in places.
Talk about water issues!
They put sod on the entire course. ....


Link:   

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Abbeywoods
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2004-01-20          74562

My license allows me to perform three classes of paving: in-situ (concrete, asphalt macadam, and synthetic), unit (brick, cobblestone, tile, slate, granite, etc.), and soft (aggregate, organic, turf, artificial turf), and as Murf explains, each has to be done right or it isn't worth being done. For the average aggregate drive, I start with a simple survey: shoot the grade. Then determine or estimate run-off, and evaluate the soil for perc. Design the plan view, mark for cut, and excavate. Typically, 24 inches deep, builtup in 6 - 8 inch lifts of one inch processed granite, compacting each lift to 4 to 6 inches below what will be finish grade. The top dress is usually dependent upon the type of pavement and can be the final paving in itself, such as half inch processed limestone or crusher run and portland 50/50 mix. Curbing, edging, drainage, and utilities all add to the price. A dozer or grader sure helps, but with determination and luck a healthy compact can make a decent showing for most of the work. However, for long term permanence, I think only a power roller will do for compaction. If done right, an aggregate drive will last longer than you think. Check your library for some simple guides such as H.L. Nichols' "Moving The Earth," and McGraw-Hill's "Landscape Architect's Portable Handbook." These are two references I'd be lost without, even after forty years landscaping. ....

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Murf
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2004-01-20          74565

Grinder, not every course is built on text-book classic farmland. I REALLY wish they were.

Generally golf courses are built on land that fits into one of only two categories, in the first category are the courses that are built on 'out-lying areas' which means the land was selected because it was just beyond the premium-priced stuff near to town, generally the land is not too bad to work with. The second category is the ones that are built on land that can be most diplomatically described as 'construction challenged'. It is usually the stuff that is good for nothing else.

We have done courses that required topsoil to be made or imported from other islands, we have done courses without grass just oiled sand for the fairways & astro-turf for the greens. We have also done courses that took weeks and weeks of blasting before we could even THINK of doing any earth work.

We done them where we had to have armed guards, of course that was because of another sort of "site condition"...LOL

Best of luck. ....

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JParker
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2004-01-21          74634

Thanks for all the input. I'm going to print this out and study for a while.

It looks like I should go ahead and buy the box blade and give it a try. If I don't seem to be making enough progress, I guess it's time to call a dozer back in.

I'll see if I can get enough adjustment out of the 3 point to handle the leveling, I was just was hoping for a solution that could be adjusted on the fly. ....

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Murf
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2004-01-21          74643

JParker, I don't recall if anyone mentioned it in this thread already or not (crs setting in) but if you want to speed the stripping of soil with a blade go over the subject area with a rototiller first, then scoop the loosened soil with the blade. If you are buying a box-blade get one with ripper shanks, they work well too.

It makes the process a LOT faster.

Best of luck. ....

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TomG
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2004-01-22          74694

Side-level can be adjusted on the fly with a full tip and tilt setup. I think of the top-link part of it as nearly essential for scraper work and I have one. Occasionally I wish for the tilt portion but in practice I don't have to adjust the side level often enough to motivate me.

Of course, I mostly work crowns where I use the same side grade on both sides of a drive. One tilt works for both sides of the roadways. I'd definitely want tilt if I had to manually adjust the side level in order to do meaningful work going in each direction.

Doing wide shallow excavations and having to level a side-grade is a pain since there's little alternative except to lift the box and drive back the start. I have organized myself so I can do more finishing work on one side and then back up doing some rough 'cut the bumps down' work in reverse on the other side and using the rear cutter. They get to be real long days if there's much just driving around time or maneuvering required ....

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Murf
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2004-01-22          74700

There is another sneaky way to achieve a side-tilt on a box-blade which is both inexpensive to add, and real fast to add, adjust or remove completely. It works on a conventional rear-blade also, but not as well.

Simply add a very sturdy trailer tongue jack to the crossbar at the front of the blade. The type with a roller wheel as a foot.

To achieve a slight lift simply crank the jack until it takes the desired amount of weight off that side of the blade. Some models affix by means of a cross drilled pipe flange, these work best since multiple mounts can be installed and the jack moved around to any of them as the need dictates.

Best of luck.

....

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TomG
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2004-01-23          74789

That seems like a useful idea Murf. I know holding position with the 3ph isn't all that great with at least my hitch. The box tends to take the angle of the grade it's on irrespective of the side level adjustment. If I hold the high end off the ground with the 3ph, then the box doesn't follow the ground contour into dips or when the tractor's front wheels go over a bump. I recall hearing a discussion about some model JD where lateral float of the link arms could be selected on or off. Don't know if that's real but it would be useful for cutting side grades.

There is another thing about cutting side grades that may be obvious. Tilt on the blade needed to get a desired grade is the difference between the grade the tractor is on and the desired side-grade. The tractor's angle changes when the blade starts cutting behind one rear tire. The tilt may have to be changed. Some 'toing and froing' usually is needed. The tilt ends up level when both rear tires on the new grade. ....

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shortmagnum
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2004-01-23          74798

I think every self respecting property owner who maintains his driveway needs an old bedspring for final grading and finishing. I mean from before the modern covered box springs where around. Pile some cement blocks on top and pull away. You can have fun keeping the blocks on top while they bounce around on the springs. All the small dips in the drive will fill in nicely. The nicest part about it is that all your neighbors will be jealous when you display it as a modern art masterpiece in the front yard. ....

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TomG
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2004-01-24          74919

Yep, and for those of us who can't find a bed spring, wrapping chainlink fencing around a timber doesn't do too badly I've heard.

I haven't used a drag myself and maybe this spring I'll try it. I put some work into getting the drives grades and crowns right. I just touch them up a couple times a year with a box scraper rolled all the way down so it rides on the back of its rear cutter but that's not as good as a drag.

Some major highway construction is supposed to happen here next summer. Maybe I can get them to run a roller up the drives. Good compacting of pit run on a proper base is almost everything in turning pit run into a durable surface for vehicles. I figure the construction company sort of owes me since they messed up the drive at our camp pretty good last year. Besides, their surveyors even sprayed a cedar fence post with marker paint rather than put in their own post. Suppose it would be wasted frustration trying to put that case though. ....

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grinder
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2004-01-25          74982

Another cheap throw away drag is a wooden pallet,pile a few good size rocks on it and go. I found an 8' and lift the front edge a little works good.
Have any of you stone drive owners ever tried adding jaw fines or (crusher dust) to your drive? I have seen that work as a good binder,
Might get a pick load and try it in a small area.
The one that comes to mind turn to a cement like finish.May take a couple
of applications as it works its way in.
....

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