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How to match Truck to Trailer Load

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echo10mp
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 32 Arkansas
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2004-07-26          91934

I need some knowledge from you experts. I hooked up my 16' trailer with the L3400DT, FEL, 5'shredder, and boxblade for the first time yesterday to my 1/2 ton Dodge with a 360 V8. The rear springs went way down. It made the steering a little uneasy. The engine was straining on the hills. I though OK, I'll hook up to my sons Dodge 1/2 ton 4X4 with a 5 inch lift and 360 V8 and it will pull better. I used a 5 1/4 inch drop hitch and boom, it sank his truck almost as bad. Trying to go up hills was almost impossible with his big tires and the heavy load.

I have hauled some trailers but most of the time my previous tractor stayed in the barn.I never really had to trailer it.I moved to Arkansas but bought land in MO. I'll have to trailer my new L3400. My question is, do I need to purchase a 3/4 ton with a diesel? Should I try moving the tractor further back and let the shredder hang off the back more? Will moving more of the load/bucket off the tongue make it pull better?

I thought things were going well, new tractor, new land to work, and then it got complicated. My truck only has 40K miles on it. I hate to buy something new, but I don't want to ruin her and then have to buy something new anyway.

Give me some advise guys!

Thanks

John


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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2004-07-26          91936

Depending upon the brand and design of your trailer; it is most likely grossly over loaded as were both the trucks you attempted to pull the load with. I would venture a guess that the tractor, FEL, & cutter tip the scales around 4,000 lbs. to 4,700 lbs. Add to this the weight of the trailer which depending upon make and model is between $1,000 to $1,500 lbs. and you are towing as much as a 6,700 lb. load. My guess is that this exceeds the towing capacity and GVWR of your truck. Not to mention the trailer hitch ball. Most are rated for 5,000 lbs. unless you purchased and heavier duty ball. You can move the tractor further back on the trailer to ease some of the tongue weight on your truck but be VERY careful! Too little tongue weight can cause and unstable and wobbley trailer when underway. I strongly recommend you research to find out exactly what your truck's tow rating AND GVWR is to verify if you are within limits. If you are; it is a matter of adjusting the load on the trailer to arrive at the ideal tongue weight which is between 7% - 10% of the load weight. Also be sure the tires on your trailer have the proper weight rating to carry the weight of your load. I would strongly suggest load range D. Load range C may work, depending upon the size of the tires but you will be work at their limits most likely. I would suggest the 3/4 or 1 ton truck for towing this load as these trucks have a MUCH stiffer suspension and strong frame which makes them much more suited to the task. Anyhow, just my 1.5 cents worth. Good luck and be safe! ....

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echo10mp
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 32 Arkansas
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2004-07-26          91939

The trailer is rated for 7,000 pounds and I think you are close in your estimates on weight. My predicament is that when I do build a barn and leave the tractor I'll have a truck set up for towing that I won't really need often. I'm in kind of a pickel. Do you think most people with these compact tractors all use 3/4 or 1 tons? I appreciate all the help you guys give. I need advise.

John ....

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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2004-07-26          91941

Here's what I've come up with.... numbers are not exact:

Tractor= 3300#
FEL= 1100#
Big box blade= 600#(?)
5 foot brush hog= 1000#(?)

Total 6000 pounds????? This puppy needs a 10,000 GVW trailer and a one ton tug boat.

Do you have fluid in the tires or wheel weights?

....

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shortmagnum
Join Date: Nov 2003
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2004-07-26          91942

I agree with everything Chief said. I regularly tow my L3130 on a 16' trailer and it sounds like you need to move everything back towards the rear. When I have my tractor chained down without too much down force on the back of my truck the loader bucket is completely inside the trailer and the rear blade is just hanging off the back end by about an inch. This blade only extends a foot or so beyond the 3pt so the tractor is probably back much farther than you tried it. I have to wonder whether you can haul your brush mower without having it protrude 6' off the back of the trailer.

Weight distribution is probably not affecting the ability of your truck to pull it.
Dave ....

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echo10mp
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 32 Arkansas
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2004-07-26          91943

No fluid in tires. I just talked to the trailer people and I was wrong the trailer is rated for 10,000 pounds. A 3/4 ton should pull this if it has a diesel right? It sounds like money anyway I look at it!

John ....

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AV8R
Join Date: Oct 2003
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2004-07-26          91945

3/4 diesel would be optimum, but maybe not necessary if you don't tow too often. YOu will find, however, that once you have a good towing vehicle, your uses will grow for it. It will definately NOT be money wasted. ($.02 worth of advise: get the manual tranny with the Cummins diesel)

Balancing the tractor load on the trailer is extremely critical. You should only put a few hundred pounds of tougue weight on your truck, the rest should be blalaced on the trailer. The trailer needs to have the capacity to handle the weight and the truck needs the GCVW (gross combined vehicle weight) rating to handle the total (truck, trailer and tractor) load. Trucks with lift kits are NOT for towing. They are for breaking expensive equipment.

As per other strings on this subject: DO NOT USE OVERDRIVE WHILE TOWING WITH A DODGE AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION! ....

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chevytruck13
Join Date: Apr 2004
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2004-07-26          91946

I will probably get yelled at for this but don't go out and buy a new truck just for this. A dodge 1/2 ton with a 360 will pull 6000 lbs. Look at the tow ratings at they are probably around 8000 lbs. Yes it will sink the back end down and yes it will pull hard up hills. But it you are only pulling occasionally don't spend your money on a new truck. I know the manufactures are sometimes optomistic about the pulling capabilities of a truck but you for sure don't need a 1 ton diesel for this. I think alot of people on this board have the Tim Taylor disease. More power is always a good thing, which in theory is true but if there isn't a need for it it's a waste. ....

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Chief
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2004-07-26          91948

echo10mp, for very occasional use towing. You could get by with your Dodge but you need to work out the weight distribution on your trailer and get around 400 lbs. of tongue weight give or take. I said occasional use towing and I mean VERY occasional use. Do NOT tow in overdrive as already mentioned but even still, you will have to really back out of the throttle on hills and use the "running start method" of getting over the hills as much as possible. To my knowledge you Dodge does NOT have lock up capability in 2rd gear, you may have it in 3rd gear. As long as you can keep the torque converter in lock up as much as possible you should be OK. You will notice an approx. 200 rpm rise in 3rd or OD when the torque converter unlocks. This is when the trans. fluid BBQ starts and the longer you are pulling hard out of lock up the more heat you build up in the trans. You would require a trans cool the size of your pickup truck bed to exchange that much heat, hence the warning about towing in OD and with the torque converter unlocked. Any way you cut this, you run a serious risk of damaging the trans. by pulling this much weight. Just take a look in my pics at the boat I pull. That package weighs around 8,500 lbs. plus. The Suburban in the picture is a 3/4 ton with 4.10 gears, 4L80E HD trans., HD tow package, and an auxiliary external trans. oil cooler. The Suburban was totally overwhelmed by this load and the trans. would over heat and puke oil each and everytime I towed the boat more than a few miles. On hills the Suburban would shift down to 2nd gear and the throttle was to the floor doing 30 mph. I was able to get by towing short trips and taking it VERY easy but it was still tough on the Suburban. That is why I went with the Dodge Cummins 3/4 ton pickup. It pulls the boat and my tractor like they are not even back there. Just take it very easy and see how she does. ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2004-07-26          91949

Chevytruck, are trying to infer that the 1,400hp I used have to push my boat through the water was a waste?

BTW, 'Tim Taylor Syndrome' is a recognized physcological condition, it is caused by prolonged exposure to high-test fuel.

Best of luck. ....

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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
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2004-07-26          91951

Let's do some more math here. No one seems to be arguing 6000 pounds for the tractor.

My 7000 GVW trailer weighs 1800 pounds. Would a 10,000 GVW weigh 2000 pounds or more?

I think we are back up to over 8000 pounds total load. That seems like a bunch of weight for a 1/2 ton truck. ....

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Murf
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2004-07-26          91953

I think my L4310 with the FEL on one end and the box blade on the other weighs about 6,000 pounds. I also know my float weighs 2,500 pounds empty.

Even though I tow it with a big truck, a F350 diesel dually with the longest wheelbase I could get, and I still have no doubt it's back there.

I have also towed that same setup with my brother-in-laws regular cab gas 3/4 ton, there was NO DOUBT about it being behind me.

I certainly wouldn't want to go very far, or very often, with that out the back of a regular 1/2 ton 'pick-me-up' truck. Not one that I owned anyways, maybe a rental... ;-p

Best of luck. ....

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bnrhuffman
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 107 Falling Waters WV
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2004-07-26          91954

Im in agreement with chevytruck. You just need to work with the weight distribution. Your trailer should easily handle the load and the truck should pull it fine. Obviously a 3/4 or 1 ton would be ideal but for occasional use, the 1/2 ton will do the job safely and without damaging the truck It is a long wheelbase 1/2 ton isnt it? If not, all bets are off.
Your tongue weight should be roughly 10% of your towed weight but you can get by with as little as 5%. Less than that and you will get noticable/dangerous sway. Try moving the tractor around on the trailer, backing it on, if you have to, lay an implement in the bed of the truck so you have more room to adjust where the tractor sits on the trailer. 500 of tongue weight will squat your 1/2 ton but not to the point that the steering gets sloppy. Just take it easy, go slow and realize that your stopping and manauvering distance has about doubled.
Compared to the Bronco II I saw in the McDonalds parking lot the other day pulling a single axle utility trailer with a Ford 1700 series tractor and a brushhog hanging off the back or the 3/4 ton pickup pulling an equipment trailer with a 210 John Deere backhoe on it, youre doing real well. ....

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echo10mp
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 32 Arkansas
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2004-07-26          91955

I'm getting just the kind of comments I wanted. I value everyones opinion. I just went to a couple of dealers during lunch and here is what they said: GMC and Chevy DuraMax are hard to come by because they are being taken for the Military Hummer and being sent overseas. The Sales Manager told me that the 2005 models he ordered were put on back order with no timetable when they would be filled. He suggested looking for a used vehicle. The Ford dealer said that the big rebates are on gas powered trucks and that they would only give $2K rebate on PowerStroke. I asked to see a work truck, diesel with a 6 speed manual and the guy said they don't have any and that there were very few within 900 miles. The ones he pulled up on the computer were over $32,000.00. OUCH!!! He said it was easier to get a dressed up diesel as that is how they are ordered and most people keep them for a lifetime. He then said why not go with a 3/4 ton with a 5.4L gas and 3.73. I told him my Dodge had a 5.7L with a 3.73 rear end and it had a hard time pulling it so why would a Ford be any better? He just told me that is what they are rated for.
I am going to pull my manual out on my Dodge when I get off work and see the ratings. I just don't want to burn up a great truck and then have to fix it and then trade it in. I just want to do the right thing. I appreciate your advise. I learn a lot here. By the way I got 3.5 hours of seat time yesterday on the Kubota. It was only 75 degrees! It is usually in the high 90s.
Thanks
John ....

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chevytruck13
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 19 Bismarck ND
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2004-07-26          91956

I don't think the military Hummers get a DMAX they still have 6.5TD. Can somebody confirm that. I am a big chevy guy and I know they are hard to get but don't let them jack the price up on you over the war. ....

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AV8R
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 882 North Central Wisconsin
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2004-07-26          91957

Echo: Just another couple of observations for you.

If you need and automatic with a diesel, GM Durimax / Allison is the only game in town. Dodge's Cummins is a superior motor, but their auto-tranny is junk (this application). The new Powerstroke Ford is having many teething problems being a new setup, so best avoided.

Just an opinion, from things I've read, value $0.00. ....

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Cub127
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 14 Monroe,michigan
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2004-07-26          91963

I have a 00 chevy 3/4 ton with the 6.0L gas,4.11 gears and it pulls my 4310 w/fel,BB and rake with no problem on a 18' trailer. Just have to get the tongue weight right. The chevy's are nice with the tow/haul mode on the trans. Most 1/2 tons aren't geared low enough. If you have to tow don't use overdrive and slow down a little. Make sure the trailer brakes work. I worry more about having to slow down than accel. ....

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AV8R
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 882 North Central Wisconsin
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2004-07-26          91967

"...I worry more about having to slow down..."

Wise words. If you cant stop it, it won't do any good to start. ....

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paulss
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 60 Lavaca County, TX
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2004-07-26          91972

Does anyone have any experience with air shocks or air overload springs? I had a friend who was always raving about the way they helped him level out his rear end when he towed his boat that was about the size of Chief's.

Just a thought. ....

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AV8R
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2004-07-26          91976

Increacing the spring rates will do nothing to help the rest of the chassis (brakes, axle strength, drive line)move (or stop) the load. The truck will just be sitting level when the axle breaks. See prior post about lift kits. I have personal experience on this topic. ....

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Logan
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2004-07-26          91989

I just pulled my L3010 with FEL,Box, and loaded tires on my 16' trailer to the mountains and back, 1000 mi round trip, and had a 650# log splitter in the bed of the truck. I don't have a bush hog yet, but it didn't sag that much. I checked the ATF and the fluid still looks and smells new. The temp. never got close to 210. I have a 98 Dodge 1500 4x4 quad cab w/ short bed. Downside was 10 MPG and 45 mph up a couple of the steepest mountains, a small amount of bouncing,and not using cruise. I know your rig will handle the weight if properly balanced. I did use cruise some of the way back but left the log splitter and some other weight in NC. No sway, bounce, or shimmy, felt good. If you had to pull your rig onto the trailer and put the bucket in front of the bed to get the bush hog on, I guarantee the load was not balanced. My tractor, box, and fel take up every inch of my trailer bed and is balanced perfectly. But when I take it back before winter I will remove the 4-500 gal. of water in the rear tires and replace it with four of five gallons of windsheid washer or rv anti freeze when I get there. That 10 mpg was a killer at 1.89. ....

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husky125
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 23 Indiana
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2004-07-27          92026

My experience having trailered many items on numerous types of trailers (yes, I've been one of those pulling a full size backhoe behind a 3/4 ton truck), is that you can't every have to much truck or brakes. If the load makes you feel uneasy in a good situation driving down the road, imagine what's going to happen in a panic situation. I'm currently using a 2500HD diesel/Allison to pull my 4400 on a 16' trailer. Even with brakes on both trailer axles, when I have the FEL and backhoe on the tractor, it still not going to stop in a hurry. Another important consideration is that trailers are also rated at a particular speed. If you look at most equipment trailers, their rating are at 45 to 55 mph. If you are pulling a trailer on the interstate at 65 mph, you are most likely exceeding the capacity if you are near the limit of the axles to begin with. ....

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yooperpete
Join Date: Jan 2004
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2004-07-27          92038

I'd go to your local dealer and get an aftermarket 20,000 GVW transmission cooler added. Cost is around $200.00 or so. Weight distribution is a key issue. You shouldn't get more than two to three inches of sagg at the tongue. If you can't get the weight distribution correct with size of trailer and implement layout, get an 18ft. flatbed, triple axle like I have. Trailer is about $3,200.00. When loaded, set your trailer brakes real heavy. Set your brake dial light when empty. That is allot cheaper than a new truck. So what if you get 10 mpg when trailering, you say you don't do it that often. With the proper weight distribution, good braking from the trailer and protecting your transmission you should be all set. Chief and others have good advice about driving/braking techniques.

There are all sorts of new trucks, diesel and gas at dealer lots all over Michigan. Diesel incentives for GM are $3,000.00 and $4,000.00 for gas. Believe Ford has something similar or slightly more with extra incentives. The little Hummers that the public drives have gas engines and have nothing to do with Military vehicles.

Two months ago I bought my daughter a new Explorer and got $8,900.00 off with 60 month 0% financing. Creative dealers can get employee or retiree incentives. ....

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PaulPrince
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 35 California
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2004-07-27          92049

For your few trips can you rent or borrow a truck? ....

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echo10mp
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 32 Arkansas
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2004-07-27          92051

The advise is great and gives me a lot to think about. I lookes at my manual on the Dodge and it says with the 5.9 I should be able to haul this load. I would need to add the transmission cooler. I probably will try moving the load tonight and see if the springs rise at all. The back tires are just in front of the front trailer tire. We all know most of the weight on a tractor and FEL are up front. I am going to try and move the rear tires back to over the front trailer tire. I will pull the bucket back into the trailer more. I am still concerned about dogging the truck and the safety. I went and drove a new Ford Power Stroke 3/4 ton with 6 speed manual today. It really has the power to pull. The only incentive they have on diesels are $1500.00 cash back or $500.00 cash back and low financing. I went over the numbers lightly with the guy. They wanted to discount 10% and get me on the trade. Same old stuff. I am going to try and see how some of the fixes work first. If they don't then I'll sell my Dodge in the paper and then hope better incentives are there in August. Did you ever notice that when you look at the paper or TV and see all the great deals it is never when you need it!

Yooperpete, sounds like you got the deal of the century! Now, if an Explorer would just pull this load...

John ....

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Chief
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2004-07-27          92052

John, I would CAUTION you to reconsider your decision to purchase a Ford truck with a 6.0 Liter Powerstroke diesel engine. Ford is having a horrible time with this engine. So much so, it is to the point that they are buying trucks back from irrate customers in large numbers.

Dodge was going through a similar issue with freeze plugs falling out but they seem to have a handle on the effected engines.

I did an LARGE amount of research over a period of years before I purchased my 2002 Dodge 2500 Cummins HO. These are very reliable trucks IF you get the manual 6 speed transmission. After my last experience with my Chevrolet Suburban, I will NEVER own another GM vehicle or at least truck. I test drove the Duramax but was very disappointed with the vehicle as the check engine light came on as I backed out of the dealer parking lot and the transmission was leaking profusely after the test drive. Ford and Chevy both have a real nice interior with their full crew cab but the truck power trains are very poor in my opinion. If I could have purchased a Ford F-350 Crew Cab Long bed with a Cummins engine and NV5600 6 speed gearbox; I would have been all over it. I loved the crew cab but I went with the mechanically superior truck and got the Dodge. If you tow, DO NOT get the automatic. NONE of the auto manufacturers make or sell an automatic transmission that is suitable and reliable behind a diesel pulling any significant amount of weight. The Allison transmission in the GM trucks has its problems as well. ....

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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
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2004-07-27          92067

What do you guys think of my latest brain storm, here goes. You can pick up a single axle semi tractor like the soda pop trucks use in good shape for about the cost of the Duramax engine and the Allison tranny alone. Take the fifth wheel off put a ball hitch on to pull the heavy gooseneck. Drive a small pickup for your get around dutys that gets 25 mpg. The semi tractor would last a lifetime with good care, have plenty of power, and no worries about burning up high dollar automatics. I know the tags on a semi tractor aren't cheap but the semi did'nt cost you much to start with so I really think it would work out. I'm honestly considering doing this, so please don't be afraid to tell me if I'm dead wrong. Thanks, Frank. ....

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AV8R
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2004-07-27          92070

I've thought of this idea too. Here's what I found for the down side. I'm still considering it though.

1) Inurance on Semi
2) Interstate/Intrastate Registrations
3) DOT/ICC Taxes
4) CDL Liscense
5) Air Brake Issues ....

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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
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2004-07-27          92074

AV8R, thanks for the response, those were the kind of things I wanted to know before I did something I'd regret later. I know several folks who own and operate their own semi's with either lowboys for eqipment or grain trailers. Maybe buy a couple of them breakfast some morning and get their thoughts. Frank. ....

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grassgod
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2004-07-27          92082

Chief - very interesting to hear about the 6.0 diesel. I have the old 7.4 power stoke in both my mason dumps. When I bought my trucks the dealer was pushing me into that new 6.0. My gut told me to stay away from it & now i'm glad I did. I have had my 18' Big Tex trailer Hitched up to my mason dump with the L3130 & backhoe & fel on the trailer with are ya ready for this crazy move......4 yards of topsiol in the back of the truck!!! I have done this same move with 2 yards many times & other times with 2 tons of stone, But this one time I was in a really time jam & didn't know what else to do. I called litterally everyone to try to get the topsiol delivered for me & no one was available at that moment. I must say i'm not proud of this maunever put the truck had litterally no problems. I gave myself major time to stop when ever I had to & never went over 40 mph. I did have a few inches of sag in the suspension though :(. But she pulled & carried all that wieght with no power loss at all. I was grateful I didnt get stopped by the othorities though. the distance was approx 10 miles I went. I love that Ford. ....

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bnrhuffman
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Posts: 107 Falling Waters WV
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2004-07-28          92088

grasgod,
We have about the same setup. Ive got a 97 F350 dually, 7.3 Powerstroke with an 8' contractors dump that I use to pull my 3130 TLB. I to have loaded the bed and towed the tractor at the same time. I was worried at first but it handled it all with no problems and I would do it again. With 2 ton in the bed and pulling my fully loaded trailer, im still under my gross GVWR.
Just out of curiosity, what is the GVWR for your truck? Mine is placarded on the door jam as 14400. That gives me almost exactly 6000lbs of payload depending on how much fuel Ive got on board and what I ate for breakfast.

Chief,
Im not positive but I think I read that Ford has fixed the Electronics problems with their 6.0 now. That engines been out for what, 4 years now. Its about time they did something. For the life of me, I cant figure out why they went away from the 7.3 anyway. ....

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BillBass
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2004-07-28          92093

Searching multiple web sites regarding the Powerstroke seems to show that most all the 6.0 problems were in the early 2003 models and have been corrected. The worst problem was the initial fuel injectors allowing fuel to enter the crankcase and ruin the engine. Ford bought back 475 of those trucks and have redesigned the injectors for all new ones. The other significant problem involved reprogramming the computer to solve some performance problems. None of the web sites seem to show any significant problems after late 2003. If buying a used Ford truck, it would probably be a good idea to stay away from a 2003 model. Ford sells more diesels than Dodge and Chevy combined so they must be doing something right. ....

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Murf
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2004-07-28          92097

Frank, I suspect that idea of a baby tractor trailer setup isn't as bad as you think.

A lot of the beauracracy is eliminated as soon as you stencil "Private Carrier Not For Hire" on the door. We run all through the US with similar setups. ICC registration is a one page form you send in, they mail you a number a month later.

In under the 'uniform licencing' regulations, the CDL issue is moot too since the CDL license requirement is based on two factors alone, 1) if you are driving commercially, and 2) the registered GVW (what it's licensed to carry) and not the manufacturers GVW of the truck. That's why you can drive a U-Haul straight truck with no CDL.

The insurance is likely not going to be an issue either, especially since you live in a rural area and aren't looking for 'commercial use' coverage and it will only be driven occassionally.

Finally, if you look around you can find a short wheelbase 5 ton with hydraulic brakes. This eliminates the air brake problem too.

I have several neighbours who have done exactly this, in fact most of them pull tagalong type floats with a pintle hook and put 10'-12' dump boxes on the truck to make it even more useful.

Best of luck. ....

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AV8R
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2004-07-28          92098

The ***ONLY*** reason Ford sells more trucks than Dodge and Chevy is super cheap fleet sales.

....

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grassgod
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2004-07-28          92101

I dont know about that av8r, in a past thread a few months ago, someone was saying they wanted a ford but settled for the Dodge because Of Price. I guess it's were you shop. I do think the Cummins is an excellent motor. Lyle Cummins knew what he was doing. The Power stoke is also an excellent motor.

bnrhuffman - The sticker on my truck is 13,500. They are both dual wheel trucks & both are 03's ....

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Murf
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2004-07-28          92102

Err, umm, yeah right, OK.

So I suppose all those people who put Ford at the top of the list in customer satisfaction with their trucks were fleet managers filling out a seperate form for each vehicle in their fleet?

Or maybe it's just that Ford has more fleet sales because it's a better truck?

Of course there is always that concept of if you sell more trucks you can produce them for less and sell them for less. Or are you trying to infer from "super cheap fleet sales" statement that Ford is selling fleet vehicles at a loss just to sell trucks?

Best of luck. ....

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grassgod
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2004-07-28          92105

bnrhuffman - i noticed your grand L 3130 is a Gst like mine. How do you like that tranny? I like mine alot. Question for ya, when your moving in lets say #4 on your speed selector & you slide it into 5, does the tractor slow down for a second while shifting almost like your in neutral for a second inbetween? ....

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yooperpete
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2004-07-28          92106

The debate about which truck is best is just like the red, blue, orange, green and yellow debate about tractors and hydro vs gears. I think it is user preference. I can break any of them. With regard to trucks, bigger is always better. GM has the top-kick series which are really, really big pick-ups or dump trucks, flat beds, enclosed box or tow vehicles. I'm currently working on tow bodies for the 4500 series. (i.e. body over frame for goose-neck tow vehicles with storage compartments.) Most are for towing rodeo and show horse trailers, very big camper trailers and NASCAR guys. I'll show one in my pics.

....

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Murf
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2004-07-28          92107

Steve, that pause you refer to as like being in neutral for a second, is because you ARE in neutral for a second.

The GST is just a gear tranny that is shifted by hydraulic solenoids, the clutch operation is also actuated hydraulically, even though it can also be done with the pedal.

Best of luck. ....

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echo10mp
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2004-07-28          92110

I moved the tractor around last night on the trailer. It made no difference to the rear of the Dodge. I guess it is just too much weight. I am looking now for the right truck. I have always been a Chevy or Dodge guy, but I must say I was impressed with the Ford. It had tons of power. I will get a manual in whatever I buy. I just like them better. I believe it is true that we all are brand loyal. There are some problems with anything mechanical.

John ....

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grassgod
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2004-07-28          92112

Murf - thanks for the info! I am getting more used to it now anyway. I find that the only time i use my clutch pedal is when doing loader work. It's kind of a habit anyway to me cause of my old 790 stick. ....

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yooperpete
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2004-07-28          92113

You mentioned that you were repositioning the load. The tractor rear tire should behind the rear trailer tire and the front tractor tire should be just ahead of the front trailer tire. That way the majority of the load is directly on the trailer tires and springs. The front of the tractor is slightly heavier, putting about 500-1000 lbs. weight on the tongue. You tongue should only sag about 2-3 inches. I still think your truck is marginally capable rather than the totally incapable feeling that you have. ....

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shortmagnum
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2004-07-28          92124

One more option for a dedicated tow vehicle is a used single axle trailer house tow truck. Older ones are relatively cheap and they don't really get alot of hard use. A friend of mine bought one to tow his Cat and it has multiple hitches which move left/right and up/down hydraulically. It's really a nice rig.
Dave ....

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Chief
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2004-07-28          92125

A VERY good reason to go with a manual transmission with a diesel is that it will allow the use of an exhaust brake which is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO nice to have and use when pulling a heavy load especially on long down hill grades. Due to the fact that a diesel has no throttle plate in the intake tract; they offer very poor compression engine braking. The exhaust brake allows up to about 190 hp of braking power which saves BIG time wear and tear on the vehicle and trailer brakes as well as makes driving so much more pleasant for the owner. Plus they sound REALLY kewl!!!! ;o) Dodge is the ONLY manufacturer that will officially warrantee and allow an exhaust brake on their Cummins powered pickups PROVIDED you have the manual transmission AND you use ONLY the Jacobs exhaust brake or Cummins eBrake. (both are the same brake manufactured by Jacobs) In my opinion, the strongest and most durable manual transmission on the market in 3/4 ton and 1 ton pickups is the New Venture NV5600 six speed manual trans. which is available only in the Dodge trucks. GM discontinued their 6 speed manual during the first year of production of the Duramax due to high failure rates. I believe Ford offers the ZF six speed manual trans. which I did not like due to being very clunky and not as smooth shifting. ....

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Murf
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2004-07-28          92126

Randy, you're only partially right about Dodge being the only one to warranty an exhaust brake system.

Most people don't realize that a Navistar-powered Ford pickup actually comes with two warranties, one from Ford and one from Navistar. In fact when I bought my truck, the whole truck was covered for 60,000 miles, but the engine was covered up to 100,000 miles by Navistar.

The Navistar warranty covers the engine regardless of whether or not you have an engine brake system installed as long as a malfunction in it didn't cause the damage to the engine.

BTW, all my Ford trucks have the 6 speed in them and I don't find any of them to be clunky or rough sifting at all. In fact the one in my personal truck is a smooth as silk. Some of the wotrk trucks get a little loose after a couple hundred thousand miles, but show me one that isn't.

Best of luck. ....

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echo10mp
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2004-07-28          92127

I'm going to check out the Dodge diesel today. I can't use a tug type vehicle as I live in a neighborhood and can't leave vehicles out... I go to the land on weekends. Kind of a pain but for now its what I have to do. My best bet is to sell my other truck and get a 3/4 ton diesel. I won't have to worry about if it is hurting it and I should be able to drive it for a long time. The problem is finding the right setup, diesel, manual and I would like a single cab. These are hard to find. The Ford I drove was set up like that. They just were very proud of the price.

John ....

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Chief
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2004-07-28          92128

Murf, what you are saying is the ONLY Navistar will warrantee the engine with the exhaust brake on it if the brake did not cause the damage. Ford will NOT. The customer's warrantee is with Ford and Ford has a warrantee with Navistar much in the same fashion Dodge or Diamler/Chysler has with Cummins. ONLY Ford can authorized you to have your truck worked on at a Navistar dealer. You cannot take the truck directly to them without footing the cost up front. Additionally, if the dealer or Ford takes the position that the exhaust brake caused a failure in any other part of the truck such as transmission, drive line, etc.; they will not repair the damage or breakage under warrantee. The warrantee you may be eluding to is the Magusson/Moss Act which is basicly a worthless piece of legislation unless you are a multi-millionaire with unlimited legal resources. Dodge sells, installs, and warrentee's the Jacobs exhaust brake and specifies in writing that is will not void the vehicle warrantee. Ford does not. ....

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Chief
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2004-07-28          92129

Unfortunately, all 3 manufacturers are VERY proud of the price with GM being the most proud of all. If don't mind the noise, the 2002 Dodge Cummins pickups are in a reasonable price range with the manual if you can find one that has been well cared for. ....

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shortmagnum
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2004-07-28          92131

echo, A new diesel truck will cost you 30-40K. If you like your truck, why not build a nice shed on your land for half that? It's sure nice to get there and have it ready for you. No worries about overloads or insurance.
Dave ....

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Murf
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2004-07-28          92132

Randy, we routinely take our trucks to 'heavy truck dealers' for warranty work since they actually know what they are doing with a diesel engine.

Never once have we been a) denied a repair with no questions asked, or, b) been asked to pay a penny up front.

Things may have changed in the last year or two but I took my truck into AllStar Trucks in Albany Georgia, the Navistar dealer there, when it started acting up while trailering the boat to Florida. They had the pump out in a flash, a bad seal on the pump shaft was replaced and I was back on the road in a couple of hours. No questions asked, not even when they were told it was a Canadian truck.

As for warranty denial, on anything, if they don't think it's warranty they won't fix it, period, doesn't matter if it's a defective cigarette lighter.

Best of luck. ....

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charlieK
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2004-07-28          92134

Grasgod, I too have a grand L3130 GST TLB and really like the tranny; though still not comfortly used to it. Did not know what GST was when I bought it...only tractor dealer had... Murf explained the GST pretty well...Mine seems to go in neutral every time I shift... Getting more used to it. 15 mos. and 344 hrs. No problems at all.... Really nice to mow with.... ....

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Murf
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2004-07-28          92135

If it is any comfort to you guys that have GST-equipped Kubotas. We ran GST's commercially for years, the tractors led a hard life, and we probably had them doing things that were a little too 'big a bite' for them.

They performed flawlessly.

Unfortunately times change and so do customers needs, we are now forced to run a lot of HST machines.

Best of luck. ....

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bnrhuffman
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2004-07-28          92139

grasgod,
This has already been answered but yes it does go into neutral for a moment between gears. I find that its much quicker and smoother to use the clutch manually and to let off the throttle when changing gears. When Im travelling up or down a hill (lots of times here in WV), I generally keep the thottle lever set to about 900 rpms and give it a little brake pedal during the shift so it doesnt get jurky or roll back.
All in all im happy with my decision but I think any tractor with a shuttle would work for me. Whats turned out to be a real nice feature is that there are no ranges. This has been an advantage more than I expected it would be. ....

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echo10mp
Join Date: Jun 2004
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2004-07-28          92143

Here is another test drive update. I went to Dodge and drove a Cummings with a new 600 automatic. This is supposed to be the "fix" to the bad auto trannies. I then drove the 6 speed with a Cummings. I was very impressed with both Dodges. They felt smoother and the automatic blew me away with how quick it accelerated. I drove the manual and it was great also, though not nearly as quick and smooth. I gave the sales guy his homework to try and find the truck I wanted. We will see what happens.

To answer shortmagnum. I thought about building the barn/shed now. The problem with that is I just bought the land, so I want to make sure of the location and water run off and such. Second, is, I am concerned about leaving a new tractor out in the woods by itself even in a barn. Most of the folks out there don't have new equipment and I think they may resent the fact that I just bought the place and now I bought a new tractor... Just my opinion after having a place in the country before and how they thought about new folks.

John ....

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grassgod
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2004-07-28          92152

bnrhuffman - very interesting about your trannt operation. I actually found mine to shift smoother with the rpms up higher with no clutch & no brake. It shifts no problem with low rpm's also but the neutral pause seems shorter & it shifts quicker with the rpm's higher. I love it. I only use the clutch for loader work & occasinally when stopping for a Quick second rather then to put the shuttle in nuetral. ....

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Chief
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2004-07-28          92158

I hear what you are saying Murf. That was straight warranty work and if Navistar of Cummins for that matter agrees to work on yours or anyone else's engine after they have determined the repair falls within warrantee criteria; they will jump on it and neither Ford or Diamler Chrysler will care. The apples and oranges part is when you install an unapproved after market device such as an exhaust brake and the malfunction or damage is determined to be caused by this after market device; BOTH Navistar and Cummins will wave you off as they know they will not be compensated under warrantee for the repair. Then comes the having a thick wallet thing. ;o) BOTH Cummins AND Diamler Chrysler have agreed to warrantee the Cummins eBrake or Jacobs exhaust brake. NO other exhaust brake is authorized or will be covered under warrantee if it is determined to have caused any malfunction or cause a need for repair. Ford does NOT do this with Navistar. For instance; if a Pac Brake exhaust brake is installed on a Ford Powerstroke engine and it determined to have caused damage to the engine, Ford can refuse warrantee coverage as can Navistar. It is a speculative thing depending upon the dealer and the relationship you have with them. Some may cover it and some won't. This is particularly true with after market performance chips and devices installed on these engines. Below is Dodges position on after market mods.

....


Link:   WARRANTY ACTION D-00-16

 
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Chief
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2004-07-28          92159

Just in case anyone was interested or is not familiar with an exhaust brake; here is a link to get a bit of info.:

....


Link:   Exhaust Brakes For the Dodge/Cummins Ram

 
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Chief
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2004-07-28          92161

In a nut shell; if you make modifications to your engine or vehicle which are not authorized by the manufacturers warrantee and the modification causes a problem or damage................... Repeat after me................I am my own warrantee station. ;o) Unless you are REALLY good buddies with the GM or Service manager of the dealership. ;o) ....

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grassgod
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2004-07-28          92165

Chief - can you send a link to the powerstroke exaust brake? ....

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Chief
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2004-07-28          92173

Grass, any of the exhaust brakes in the link I posted above will work on a Powerstroke diesel. Cost wise, I believe Pac Brake is the cheapest and BD as well as Banks being the most expensive. If you do a Google search of each brand, their individual web sites come up. Just be aware that they are not all designed the same and some (BD) have much higher back pressure which can cause other issues. Check with your dealer as to whether is will be a warrantee issue if your truck is still under warrantee and you have concerns. ....

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DRankin
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2004-07-28          92178

What's cheaper? A couple new sets of brake pads or a jake brake? ....

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jarndt
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2004-07-29          92184

GET THE MANUAL TRANNY!
GET THE MANUAL TRANNY!
GET THE MANUAL TRANNY!

Seriously, the only auto tranny remotely up to the task (over the long run) is the Allison, but I still don't trust ANY auto further than I could throw it. I had a Dodge with a manual and it was the most reliable vehicle I've ever owned. Manuals trannys are superior for towing for a variety of reasons, assuming a skilled driver. Just take cues from the heavy trucking industry... How many semis have automatics? Not many, and most of those that do aren't really automatics. They are "manumatics", basically a gear transmission with an electronically controlled hydraulic clutch.

But I digress... I think this thread has REALLY gotten carried away. To get back to the original point, your 1/2 ton will do the job (I've hauled similar loads with a similar truck), but you will certainly shorten the life of the auto trans and a bigger truck will definitely perform better.

Happy truck shopping! Good luck, and let us know what you settle on.
....

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Murf
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2004-07-29          92193

Mark, as with all sorts of nifty big-boy toys, the cost is really sort of moot to whether or not you NEED (as in "but Honey, I REALLY, REALLY, NEED it") it.

In reality though, an exhaust brake has HUGE technical advantages over the middle pedal in a lot of cases. There where many 6+% downhill grades where I would have killed for one. The middle pedal is only effective for about the first 30 seconds, past that it starts to lose it's effectiveness fast as the rotors & pads start to glow orange. Stop? Forget it, I was lucky to be able to stay behind cars without getting into the trailer brakes pretty strongly.

Besdies, as Randy stated earlier, they sound really kewl...

Best of luck. ....

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kwschumm
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2004-07-29          92195

Exhaust brakes don't sound so kewl at 4 am when the log trucks start hurtling down the mountain roads. :( ....

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Murf
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2004-07-29          92197

You make a very good point Ken, my little peice of quiet countryside just happens to be on a side-road a few miles south of a large sand & gravel pit. The township passed a noise bylaw that includes Jake brakes and loud exhaust last year and it helped a lot, but there is always one who tries to get away with it now & then.

The worst is in the spring during pothole season, the dishes rattle when a loaded truck hits one at full speed.

Best of luck. ....

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Chief
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2004-07-29          92220

Ken, you are mistaking a commercial diesel engine brake for the exhaust brake we are talking about. The engine brake is a compression brake and has a very distinctive and loud rat a tat tat sound. The exhaust brake is about the same noise lever or just slightly about the stock exhaust noise. ....


Link:   Engine Brake

 
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Chief
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2004-07-29          92221

Ken, this is the exhaust brake. Two different animals altogether. Inconsiderate truck drivers are ruining for all the rest by foolishly, selfishly, and thoughtlessly using their engine brakes at inappropriate times and places when it is not required. ....


Link:    Exhaust Brake

 
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Chief
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2004-07-29          92222

This is the warrantee approved brake for the Dodge Ram ....


Link:   Jacobs Literature for Jacobs Exhaust Brake® and E-Brake by JacobsTM Us

 
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Chief
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2004-07-29          92223

Here is some new info. on noise concern issues. This does not apply to exhaust brakes. ....


Link:   Engine Exhaust Noise Concerns

 
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kwschumm
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2004-07-29          92224

Thanks, Chief, that info clears some things for me. I've never heard a diesel pickup make that staccato exhaust brake noise, but the big log trucks around here sometimes drive me nuts. ....

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grassgod
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2004-07-29          92247

LOL Ken!!! I know what your saying Ken, they can be very obnoxious ....

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AV8R
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 882 North Central Wisconsin
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2004-07-30          92312

Wow, take a couple days off and this string really went!

When I said "super cheap fleet sales" for Ford this was not meant as a slam, but rather Ford takes great pride on selling volume numbers of vehicles to state, county, city, and "industrial" fleet customers at huge discounts. Not through regular dealer networks, but corperately. Which is good for them.

Been there, tried to bid against it, lost badly.

....

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echo10mp
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 32 Arkansas
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2004-08-02          92510

To give closure to this whole subject. I bought a Ford F250 Super Duty with a PowerStroke Diesel and 6 speed manual. The decision was a good one. It hauled the tractor etc. up mountains like it was nothing. I felt it back there but it never had any trouble. WOW what a difference. To make things even better I put an ad in the paper for my Dodge and sold it to a nice family that really needed a nice vehicle. So as my Dad always told me things happen for a reason. I appreciate all the great advise and suggestions that I received. Experience is a great teacher.

John ....

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yooperpete
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1413 Northern Michigan
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2004-08-02          92513

Congrats on your new purchase, sounds like you made a good choice. The guys here sometimes get carried away with the toys and accessories.

You may however want to add the little mud flaps. I didn't and have stone chips behind the rear wheels and chips in the chrome step bar. The Firestones pick-up and hold tiny roadside size stones.

The seats are ergonomic meaning they are like a wooden church pew. The seats do break in a little after about 35,000 miles or so, that or callouses have formed. ....

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AV8R
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2004-08-02          92531

Congratulations on the new "tool." I sure it will serve you well.

Be observant on where you buy fuel, keep to high traffic distributers for fresher fuel which will give you better performance. ....

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grassgod
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2004-08-02          92537

Congradulations echo! You wont be disapointed with that work horse! ....

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Murf
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2004-08-03          92596

Yooper, carried away??? Us??? Nooooooooo!!!

350+hp pickup trucks are a necessity not a toy, a 600hp pickup is getting carried away with toys.....LOL.

But the mudflaps are a good advice, I have them on the rears, but there's a spot between the front wheel well and the front of the running board that's bare steel from the stones and sand.

Enjoy the new truck.

Best of luck. ....

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echo10mp
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 32 Arkansas
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2004-08-03          92624

Hello Guys,

I just made arrangements to get a Ranchhand front bumper and grill guard, steps, headache rack and spray in bed liner on Thursday. I figured if I'm jumping in for a new truck I might as well go in with both feet. I told my wife that it is not really like spending money, its protecting our investment. The heavy welded steel will make sure that the front end does not get banged up.

I have not told her they make a back bumper too!

John ....

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magnus
Join Date: Jun 2004
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2004-08-11          93208

What is the best way to estimate tongue weight on a load? I too am guilty of using an undersized truck with my Silverado 1/2 ton having to pull a big load from time to time. I gather its just a "Kentucky windage" thing in figuring how much of then load is forward of center? Or is there a method to it? Thanks. ....

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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2004-08-11          93215

In a pinch you can use a bathroom scale provided the tongue weight does not exceed the scale limit. If the tongue weight exceeds the scale limit; you can use a 2, 2 x 6's or other beams and cut the weight in half the scale recieves but double what the scale reads. Lay one beam beside the scale and the other across the scale so the beam beside the scale acts like pivot point. ....

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Murf
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2004-08-11          93218

Another simple way is to get it balanced properly and then measure the height of the hitch from the ground, then unload and measure again. Next time you need to load just make sure the difference of the two measurements is how far down the ball dropped when you get loaded.

Some people make up a stick with a mark at the right height, when they load they just lean it up against the back of the truck, then move the load ahead until the hitch drops down to meet the mark on the stick.

Best of luck. ....

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yooperpete
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2004-08-11          93222

When using the stick and measuring methods, you must be on flat and even terrain. (i.e. if the front end of the truck is high your ball position will be lower than normal before getting started). Another method is to measure the height of the rear wheel well opening above the rear tire before and after. Then it doesn't matter what terrain you are on!

I usually grab the tongue and lift! That may sound stupid on a triple axle flat bed but believe me it works. Even if the tongue weight is 500 or 1000 lbs. you can get some movement out of it causing the rear springs to give. At 500 lbs. tongue weight you can move it lots more than at 1000lbs. Then if you stand on it you can push it down slightly. At 500lbs. tongue weight a 230lb. guy can depress it some. At 1000lbs. tongue weight a 230lb. guy don't make it move much. If you step on it and it has negative tongue weight you can feel the clearance in the ball socket and your weight gets lots more spring movement.
That's my version of Kentucky windage! ....

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lbrown59
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2004-09-02          95423

What do I need to haul my bx23 with ?
I have an 8 foot utility trailer I pull with my dodge d 50 pick up?
I know the bumper hitch won't get it but can I make the truck and the trailer work?
....

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DRankin
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2004-09-02          95426

From the leading edge of the bucket to the last knuckle on the stowed backhoe bucket, a BX 23 is 14 feet long.

That would also be the minimum size trailer. ....

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AV8R
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2004-09-03          95437

Look at "trailering a BX2300" on the trailering forum. ....

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lbrown59
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2004-09-03          95438


********************************
From the leading edge of the bucket to the last knuckle on the stowed backhoe bucket, a BX 23 is 14 feet long.
That would also be the minimum size trailer.
DRankin
============
Thank you for this post.
1*Can you tell me how much The BX 23 weighs with the 60" mmm loader and hoe?
2*Would a Dodge D 50, Nissan or Toyota pickup handle it and the trailer ?






....

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lbrown59
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2004-09-03          95439

Look at "trailering a BX2300" on the trailering forum.
===============
Thanks
Will do ....

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DRankin
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2004-09-03          95456

I figured my BX 22 at 2600# with wheel weights. That mower deck has got to weigh a couple hundred more. Better figure on 2900-3000# by the time you add fuel and such.

I towed mine on a standard 16 foot car hauler. The little bit of extra room gave me the ability to load the tongue with enough weight to safely tow it.

As far as the tow vehicle goes, you are going to need a real hitch, not a step bumper, and a 5000 pound tow capacity. ....

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lbrown59
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2004-09-13          96345

As far as the tow vehicle goes, you are going to need a real hitch, not a step bumper, and a 5000 pound tow capacity.
DRankin
=================
OK;But will a Toyota , Nissan or Dodge D 50 handle this? ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2004-09-13          96346

I haven't looked up the actual manuf. towing capacity for any of those trucks, but from lots of experience with a trailer, I would have to say that as far as the suspension, steering and brakes go it would be a real handfull with that much weight out the back of a small truck.

It would be a real case of the 'tail wagging the dog'.

If you were just going a few miles in town you might be fine, but I sure wouldn't want to go very far, or very fast, that's for sure.....

Better safe than VERY sorry.

Best of luck. ....

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DRankin
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2004-09-13          96349

Just barely. I had a 2000 Tacoma for a while and as I recall it had a 5000 pound rated towing capacity.

I tried towing a 4000 pound 5th wheel with mine and basically couldn't get it out of third gear. I had a 4wd, 4 cylinder(150 hp) and was running it between 4500 and 7000 feet above sea level. A 2wd, V-6 at lower altitudes would run stronger but may not have the same tow rating as the 4wd.

Crunching the numbers: a BX23 weighs about 2600 pounds and a 16 foot trailer with 4 wheel brakes (gotta have them)weighs roughly 1700-1800 pounds.

That is pushing real close to the limits, but it can be done with a careful driver. ....

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lbrown59
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2004-09-13          96379

Maybe I Should just go with a Mack truck and a low boy! LOL ....

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lbrown59
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2004-09-17          96677

New Navistar pickup towers over offerings from Hummer, Ford - Sep. 13, 2004

The ultimate tow vehicle.


http://member.compuserve.com/wrap/linker.jsp?ref=http://money.cnn.com/2004/09/13/pf/autos/monster_truck/index.htm

The new CXT -- short for commercial extreme truck and built from the same platform as the heavy-truck maker's typical tow truck or cement mixer -- will be sold starting this week by Navistar's International Truck & Engine subsidiary.
....

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lbrown59
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2004-09-17          96680

I could get a John Deere:
That way I could see which Tractor Gets used the most for towing the trailer.
LOL
....

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yooperpete
Join Date: Jan 2004
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2004-09-17          96685

I saw that Navistar product release as well. The news media as usual didn't have a clue what they were talking about. GMC has offered the Top-Kick 4500/5500 series of trucks for years that are giant pick-ups, tow body trucks, flatbeds, dump trucks, etc. Picture 10 of my photos shows the tow vehicle body style for goosenecks that I'm currently working on. Navistar just wants to break into this market segment. ....

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BillBass
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 190 North Texas
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2004-09-17          96693

OK. For those of you who are concerned about the towing capacity of your truck, you might step up to (literally) the new International CXT. ....


Link:   CXT

 
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lbrown59
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2004-09-17          96707

A Mobile Home toter would be good for this ....

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lbrown59
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2004-09-17          96721

How bout one of these?
81 International 19 and one half foot roll back bed.
or a 79 GMC dove tail car hauler.

....

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jkjordan
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 25 East Tennessee
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2004-10-24          99192

For towing my L3830 I bought an old beat-up '75 1-ton flat-bed 350 chevy dualie for $800, put some wheels & tires on it, rebuilt the 4bbl, and the granny gear pulls the steepest hill. It's not pretty, no AC or radio and the driver door doesn't quite close, but I suspect no one will try to steal it. As a bonus, I use the 12' bed far more than ever I imagined hauling lumber, fence panels, etc.

JKJ ....

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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2004-10-25          99212

Heck! For $800 (2 new truck payments or one if it is a really nice truck) ;O) you can't beat that with a stick! Plus you don't have to worry about scratching or denting it either. Nice find! ....

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plugger
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 12 wapum pa
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2004-11-03          99791

Howdy Boys, I sa a bumper sticker the other day that I just have to run by you It said 97 percent of Dodge trucks are still on the road, the other 3 percent made it home!!! ....

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