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4110 John deere

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rogerhan
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 4 Hanibal MO.
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2004-07-19          91345

Well I have placed my order today for the 4110 after reading the postings here. Just wanted to say thanks for all your help. I wanted to buy the 4115 but the money dif held me back.

I was wondering if this is right. I can use my rear blade as balance when using a bucket. THis is what the dearler told me. I was thinking that it would be alot of space behind me when working in tight spots. He told me he would through in a balace box for free. So how much weight should be in this box.

Again thanks

Happy tractoring.

Roger


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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2004-07-19          91348

Your operator's manual for the FEL will cover the amount of weight recommended for the weight box. It will cover wheel weight and tire filling as well. Make sure the dealer gives you one FREE, it IS part of the FEL and comes with it. ....

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Ducati996
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 347 New York
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2004-07-19          91349

I find my rear blade being (Frontier 60") too light for me when doing max FEL work...and that is with CaCl tires as well.
When I know I'm maxing out at every dig, I use the ballast box with 800 lbs weight inside along with the combined weight of the Cacl tires. Even with all that I could probably use a few hundred more pounds -but I feel pretty solid with the weight I have now.. Your manual for the FEL has some quidelines to work from. You can subsitute wheel weights to offset CaCl tires for example...There is I guess a trade off using either CaCl in tires, where its advantage is cheap effective weight.With the downside of corrosion (but if in tubes should be ok) and toxic to plant life if a leak occurs. Wheel weights are great but usually very expensive...

Anyway you got a great machine! happy motoring!!

Duc
....

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4110 John deere

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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2004-07-19          91352

Your loader manual will lay out the weight requirements.... 1100+ pounds...... believe it!

If you want to see how much rear ballast is needed on a 4110, see my #2 picture.

You rear blade will not be enough weight, and it will be a bit clumsy. ....

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akanapa
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 28 Black Forest, Colorado
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2004-07-19          91356

The dealer told me the same thing on my 4115 that I recently bought, namely that the rear blade will be sufficient for balance. I've used the FEL with rear blade for balance and have had no problems with full heavy dirt loads in my full-sized bucket (not the smaller standard version). Just to be on the safe side, I had the rear tires filled. Oh yeah, I run with the iMatch on the rear too, but it's not very heavy though. Not even the hint of any problems. ....

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DRankin
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2004-07-19          91358

That is because the 4115 has different ballast requirements.

The 4115 is more than 6 inches longer and 300 pounds heavier. That may not sound like much but extending the wheelbase by 10 percent adds a lot of leverage to keep the rear end down.

I have had both..... the 4115 needs less ballast than the 4100. ....

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cherymax
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 80 Grantville, GA
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2004-07-19          91365

I've used the Frontier RB1060 blade as ballast w/ the 4110 / 410 loader... after moving approx. 150 tons of dirt, gravel, and fertilizer. I can honestly tell ya that the rear blade seems more than adequate ballast for moving anything but gravel. Even moving gravel, I've never had the rear tires "lift" with the blade on.
The 3pt ballast box JD sells weighs approx. 800lbs. when filled with concrete. The RB1060 blade only weighs 262lbs. but has a much greater arm... I don't have the #'s on the total moment of each... anywho... Long story short, I only use the blade and have never had a problem.
....

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Ducati996
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2004-07-22          91616

cherymax ,

Just a few questions regarding your application, do you have liquid filled tires or wheel weights? and what size is your bucket?

I can assure you the rear blade is too light ( I have the same frontier) with a 61" bucket and CaCl tires on a 4100 - its the same as a 4110...
Of course you are free to disagree with this statement :)

duc ....

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cherymax
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2004-07-22          91624

Duc,

I use the 410 loader, 53" bucket w/ the JD I-match and rb1060 blade as ballast for everything but moving gravel.

I will be adding wheel weights... but as of now, that's it.

It's been many years since I had physics, but dig this :)

Moment comparions(please don't nickel and dime my weights and measurements this isn't scientific.):

-- JD ballast box vs. I-match hitch w/ RB1060 blade --

JD Ballast box: 800lbs * 1.25' arm = moment of 1000 ftlbs

I-match hitch(75lbs) w/ blade(262lbs) 373lbs * 3.17' arm = moment of 1068 ftlbs
....

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rogermo
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 57 Hannibal Mo. usa
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2004-07-22          91631

well as of 7 22 04 my tractor (4110) is at the dealer but all the other hang on parts are not, this is driving me nuts. I have things to do places to go with this baby.

From what I am reading I should be thinking of wheel waits etc. for bucket work. To date all I have order is the box to hang on the back or the rear blade. I do not like the idea of filling the wheels with cal. What about flats etc. I was wondering the box fill with scrap steel would be ok, I realy do not want to fill it with cement incase I want to use it for tools when cutting wood in the woods and not bucket work or is it even big enough for a chain saw oil etc.
If I am lucky very lucky the tractor will be ready Fri. Can any one call my dealer amd make a plead for me.
roger ....

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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
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2004-07-22          91635

Scrap steel, rocks, bricks, cement blocks.... it all works. ....

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cherymax
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 80 Grantville, GA
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2004-07-22          91636

If I remember correcty (I probably don't) weight for moment calc. needs to be taken from the C.G. of the weight and weights need to be computed seperatly then moment added... so I revised the math on the ballast/blade moment/datum location:

(It's still rough)

JD ballast:
800lbs, C.G. is center, 7.5" arm = 6000 lbs-inches of moment

Frontier blade:
262lbs, C.G. is 75% * 38" from datum, 28.5" arm = 7467 lbs-inches of moment

JD I-match
75lbs, C.G. is center, 2" arm = 150 lbs-inches of moment

sooo... and someone check me on this:
The JD ballst provides 6000 lb-inchs of moment and the I-match/blade combo provide 7617 lb-inches of moment.

If my math is correct, the light blade with it's increased arm seems to provide a greater amount of ballast than the heavy/short ballast box.


And now for something totally different:

Another member came up w/ this: fill the ballast box with concrete. Set these items to the wet concrete: a few 2" PVC tubes to hold shovel/rake/whatever, a couple of "J" bolts to mount a tool box, and/or a protective chainsaw bar cover. If you insert a chainsaw bar cover into the wet concrete, place a small piece of wood to keep the cover from collapsing. ....

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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2004-07-22          91639

Dunno about your calculations, but it seems to me the further back the weight is the more it will tend to unload when traversing bumps. Wheel weights or loaded tires would minimize this. ....

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cherymax
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 80 Grantville, GA
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2004-07-22          91666

More weight anywhere would minimize it! ....

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Ducati996
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 347 New York
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2004-07-24          91802

I admit I'm having trouble translating your formulas...I think a easier way involves mechanical leverage and folcrums. But to take the guess work out of it, refer to the manual for each machine - they already did the formulas and applied it to actual usuage per machine....
I find the manual very accurate for my uses, and I would rather not find out the hard way....having the rear blade on its good for mulch, and light materials. Wet dirt and 3/4 stones, belgin blocks, stumps,firewood, Roof shingle bundles, I use the weight box which keeps the rear planted(along with CaCl tires)...again its only a suggestion and up to the individual

Duc ....

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DRankin
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2004-07-24          91804

It looks like you are using the link ends as your center of gravity. Am I getting this right? ....

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cherymax
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2004-07-24          91809

Edited for clarity.

Looks like lots of questions/misunderstandings... I'll try to answer'em all.

DRankin... No, I'm not using the lower link ends as the C.G.. The C.G. I'm using is the C.G. of the item attached to the 3pt. hitch e.g. blade, I-match hitch... etc. The lower link ends are the datum location.

For example the C.G. of the JD ballast box is 7.5".... The ballast is a big square box 15 inches long... since it's square... it's C.G. will be centered.

I used a offset C.G. on the blade. With the I-match hitch installed, the measurement from the tractor's lower link pin hole to the rear of the blade is ~ 38.5 inches. Since all the blades "meat" is to the rear of the blade. I set the blade's C.G. at 75% of it's length (38.5" * 0.75 = ~ 28.9")
**** since I assumed a 2" arm on the I-match hitch (see below)... it thru these measurements off by 2".

The I-match's C.G. should have been centered... I think I put it had a 2" arm... That is incorrect it's arm is zero. ...75lbs * 0inch arm = 75lb-inches of moment not 150.

Ducati996... The formula is very simple... The formula is weight * arm = moment. Duc... this is mechanical leverage and fulcrums!
I never said don't follow the manual... the topic that started all this was someone mentioning the RB1060 blade didn't provide adequate ballast vs. JD's 3pt. ballast box. I kinda thought the same thing too... but after doing the math... blade provides more of a "ballast" than the ballast box.


Here I'll explain a bit:

Weight - self expilanitory.
Arm - is the distance from the datum to the C.G. of an item.
Moment - is the resultant force exerted.
Datum - is a location (any location) used in calculating the arm. The datum location in this example will be the lower link pin hole, but it could be anywhere... makes no diff.

A very simple example of this is holding a 5lb weight in your hand. Keeping the weight close to your body, raise the weight. Now do the same thing, but extend your "arm." The force required to overcome the extended "arm" is much greater. Because the moment of the item is much greater.

It's really no diff. than 2 kids on a teeter-totter(sp). The closer to the center(fulcrum)the kids are the less moment they have.

Please don't confuse fulcrum with datum... fulcrum is the pivot point... and datum is any location (as long as it's consistent) used in computating moment. You could make the datum 50 feet in front of the tractor but the moment calculations will have the same % of diff.

Guys, this really is simple stuff. If ya have anymore questions I;ll try to help.

gotta go to work cya.. back to work again. ....

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4110 John deere

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DRankin
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2004-07-24          91822

I am a bit rusty on this topic..... it's been a long time since I did calculations like this when loading an aircraft, so I could be off-base.

I believe the Center of Gravity in these calculations should be the center line of the front axle. That being the case, the ballast box would have a much longer arm and more "weight" than the 7.5 inches give it in your calculations.

Why the front axle? I have gotten the rear end off the ground on my 4100 a couple of times and the front axle was the pivot point.

My seat of the pants experience tells me that a 700 pound ballast box beats a 350 pound rear blade every time for keeping the rear wheels on the ground. But I am open to other opinions.


....

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rogermo
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 57 Hannibal Mo. usa
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2004-07-24          91837

You folks here are good. I think some of the postings were a bit over my head but I sure know now that I will start off with 800 pounds and if I bounce even a hair I will add wait. Which brings me to my last question, from what I have read my 4110 will pick up 800 pounds but other places I have read more. Does any here know how much it will pick up for sure. ??
Thanks

Roger
....

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DRankin
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2004-07-24          91839

The FEL will do 800. The three point will do a good deal more, but 1200 on the rear end starts pulling the front end (with the FEL) off the ground on uphill starts. ....

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Ducati996
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2004-07-25          91848

I was thinking the rear wheels being the pivot point when rear ballast and FEL are factored in...I'm having trouble converting Momentum into fixed mechanical advantages or an actual weight...its been sometime

( I know looking at the manual is cheating) I'm sure they factored this in already...

Duc

....

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Ducati996
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2004-07-25          91849

I have found the hydraulic ratings conservatively rated?
I have loaded to its max with 3/4 red stones numerous times (cant count)...There was no strain from the machine or loader, or axels (the max weight on the axels are much higher)...I did not modify the hydraulics with any shims, and it was dealer installed for me...my guess on the weight of 3/4 stones on a 61" bucket -over 1,000 lbs
I realize the bucket size was rated for light materials but I can tell you that is also a conservative rating as well -providing you don’t use the machine on a incline without caution, I see no reason why it cant be done continuously...
Again this is only my observations from usuage and not a balnket statement..

Duc
....

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DRankin
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2004-07-25          91862

The rear axle is the pivot point when you are worried about keeping the front end on the ground...... a 5 foot brush hog on a 4110 and with no FEL comes to mind. ....

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denwood
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2004-07-27          92062

Lift capacity as rated by the manufacturer is a number that has little meaning in the real world. for the 410 loader, it is 800 pounds, but that is at maximum height and at the pivot point of the bucket where it hinges on the loader arms. It is also a rating probably based on the tipping capacity of the tractor. for skid loaders, the capacity is 50% of tipping load, and for track machines, it is 30%. I don't know how they rate it for tractors. This lifting position will not be used unless you attach a chain at this point and lift from there. As weight is added farther from the pivot point, with a bucket or forks, the capacity will decrease and as weight is added to the rear, the capacity will increase. The real lifting capacity is revealed in the loader breakout strength. For the 410, it is 2130 pounds at the pivot point. If you add enough rear weight, you can apply that much force before the hydraulic relief kicks in. John deere is at the top of the heap when it comes to breakout although others are closing in. The truth is most of us lift at near hydraulic capacity by adding rear weight with little regard for rated capacity. ....

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Ducati996
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2004-07-27          92064

Denwood,

Nice reply, very helpful and answered a few things for me!

Duc ....

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kwschumm
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2004-07-27          92068

Yes indeed, great explanation. Thanks for posting it! ....

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rogermo
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2004-07-27          92080

Hello to all those that have posted on this string. Thank you for your answers over the last few days. I think I know understand better the question of lifting. The last few post were good about break out force. Which I checked before bying the 4110. I had a 455 which had a very low break out forch and why I have steeped up to the 4110. So this leads me to another question.
On flat ground with grass cover clay and some black loom will I be able to bust the ground and shave off the top ground to about 6" to a 1 foot with out hitting it over over like I did my my 455.
I am waiting to pick up this baby the deck still has not come in to the dealer it has been 8 days now. I a m going nuts.
Maybe tomorrow.
Thanks

Roger ....

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Ducati996
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2004-07-31          92389

I guess the answer to your question could be yes but it will depend on how hard your soil is. The bucket edge itself being smooth can use advantages when available. If the ground is really hard packed, I would suggest a tooth bar to breakup the hard soil first, then remove the tooth bar and grade with the smooth edge of the bucket...or actually a box blade with teeth rippers will help as well..
These attachments are relatively inexpensive as well but very useful in hard soil and for grading jobs...If you dont like the dealers prices on attachments, look at Corriher that advertises on this site..

Duc ....

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