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JD 4300 hydro PTO slipping

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AnnBrush
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 463 Troy OH
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2004-06-14          88461

This past weekend I was using a PHD when the auger caught on the underside edge of a buried concrete slab. The 2 bolts attaching the auger to the PHD gearbox did not shear (I am not sure if they were supposed to). The auger and engine slowed rapidly and I shut off the PTO - that was the end for that hole (about 3' in clay). On a second 4' hole (also clay) I noticed the PHD was not turning consistantly at about 3.5 - 4' deep but seemed to be "slipping" a bit. There were no unusual sounds from the tractor, the engine RPM were constant at about 1500 and the PTO turns and engages fine afterwards. My question: Is there an internal PTO clutch, and if not can anyone explain the linkage (hydrostatic transmission) that would allow the PTO to "slip" under heavy load. What should I be doing about this (if anything)? I have read the previous posts on PHD and shear pins but they did not address this specific model of tractor. Many thanks for your thoughts / advice.
Regards
Ann Brush


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JD 4300 hydro PTO slipping

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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2004-06-14          88487

The 4310 technical manual lists two possible causes for a slipping PTO. Either the PTO clutch is damaged or worn or there is insufficient oil pressure to the PTO clutch. The latter can be caused by a leaking shaft seal. Either way, it requires removal of the rear PTO drive shaft and gears to get to it. ....

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JD 4300 hydro PTO slipping

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jedolson
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 14 Oregon
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2004-06-14          88494

It seems odd that the PHD pins did not shear...it should have to protect damage to the PTO clutch, clutch basket and/or gears.

Sounds like you may have damaged the PTO clutch/basket. My tech says its a 2 hour job to check for metal and pull the PTO apart to get at the clutch/basket.

You should also check to see what has been installed as shear pins in the PHD...someone may have replaced them with the wrong thing resulting in damage to your PTO ....

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JD 4300 hydro PTO slipping

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2004-06-14          88496

I think the key to it is in the statement "The 2 bolts attaching the auger to the PHD gearbox did not shear...".

There are two cross-drilled holes between the PHD and the auger bit itself. I do not know why, only ONE bolt is required as a shear bolt. If you put a bolt in both you are effectively doubling the shear strength and defeating the purpose of having it in the first place, namely to protect the rest of the driveline.

Off-hand I'd have to say that it doesn't sound good. A PTO clutch is a pre-loaded mechanical friction type unit. If it is now slipping it is probably because it got overloaded and worn away to the point where it no longer engages. As a matter of course if you have to split the tractor to service it you may as well spring the few extra bucks and replace it.

Hope I'm wrong, but experience says otherwise.

Best of luck. ....

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JD 4300 hydro PTO slipping

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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
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2004-06-14          88500

Murf is trying to scare you. On the 4300 the tractor should not have to be split to get to the PTO clutch. ....

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JD 4300 hydro PTO slipping

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Billy
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 975 Southeast Oklahoma
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2004-06-14          88506

"On a second 4' hole (also clay) I noticed the PHD was not turning consistantly at about 3.5 - 4' deep but seemed to be "slipping" a bit"

Could this possibly be your imagination? I've never heard of a PTO clutch pack going bad on a JD. ....

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dsg
Join Date: Jun 1999
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2004-06-14          88514

On my phd, the shear bolt is in the drive line not where the auger and gear box meet.

David ....

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AnnBrush
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 463 Troy OH
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2004-06-15          88552

A couple of points to clarify. Its a borrowed PHD. The two cross drilled bolts attaching the auger to the PHD gearbox are the only possible shear bolts (none present in the driveline). Yes the PTO seemed to be slipping as evidenced by the inconsistant speed of rotation of the auger at constant engine RPM (PHD auger is turning slowly enough to notice). I opened the JD tech site manuals and inspected drawings of the PTO clutch and brake assemblies. One thing strikes me as odd: If there is a wet clutch (multiple plates in a clutch basket) and it slips under heavy load why is this an indication of a problem / breakage. Is this unit not designed to slip if the load is too great? ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2004-06-15          88555

Ken, I'm not trying to 'scare' anyone, I was stating my opinion, I didn't realize we weren't supposed to do that anymore. If there is an access panel to remove that gives you access to the PTO clutch that's great, but I don't recall seeing one on a CUT of any flavour, why would they go to the expense and trouble of giving access to something which is normally never touched for the life of the machine?

Billy, a PTO clutch is a PTO clutch, saying "I've never heard of a PTO clutch pack going bad on a JD." is a rather abstract thing to say. PTO clutches going bad are rare period, not just on a JD. It will happen on ANY machine though, small or large, if you overload the PTO and nothing else lets go first.

Ann, the shear bolts being between the auger and the PHD head is the most common location. The problem seems to be that someone erroneously put TWO bolts in instead of just one. Negating the whole point of having a sacrificial weak spot in the driveline by doubling it's strength.

If the PTO is slipping under moderate load it means only one thing, the clearance between the friction parts has increased, period. The only way clearance can increase is if the adjustment backed off, or the friction plates were worn down. The most likely is wear since it takes surprisingly little to burn them down since they are under a great amount of pre-load.

Yes, they are a 'wet' clutch, and yes, they are designed to break free and slip when the load gets too much, HOWEVER, they are designed to slip rather than something in the transmission breaking instead. Given the choice between replacing gears or a clutch pack I'll take the clutch pack every day.

Best of luck. ....

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kwschumm
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2004-06-15          88559

Sorry Murf, I worded that poorly. I meant that as a friendly jab and didn't mean to imply that you were intentionally scaring anyone.

According to the JD tech manual the entire PTO section of the JD 4300 is serviced from the rear of the tractor without splitting it. ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2004-06-15          88562

Ken, sorry if I over-reacted, the Boss and the Doctor have my coffee intake restricted, I probably have too much blood in my caffeine stream this morning.

You have my interest peaked now though, how do you access it from the rear without splitting it? Is it a two piece rearend or something. I don't recall seeing a rearend on a CUT that wasn't an integral casting, access from the wheel ends or split only. Is there a panel that comes off at the back maybe?

Best of luck. ....

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JD 4300 hydro PTO slipping

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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2004-06-15          88563

Yes, there's a removable panel at the rear. 4-6 bolts and the panel comes off and you have access to the whole shebang. This is true of the mid size JD 4xxx series, not sure about the small or big ones. It actually doesn't look like a huge job to change the pto clutch. Probably a couple of hours work for somebody who has done it before and has all the right tools. ....

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JD 4300 hydro PTO slipping

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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
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2004-06-15          88564

Murf, I'm having an extra cup of coffee in your honor right now.

Irish Cream flavor, thought it would be appropriate.

Thanks for stepping in on the other thread. ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2004-06-15          88566

Wow, an intelligently designed product.

What will they come up with next?

Thanks for the coffee Mark, can you have an extra drink for me later, after the 'suns over the yard arm', they cut me back on that too.......

Best of luck. ....

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JD 4300 hydro PTO slipping

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Billy
Join Date: Oct 1999
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2004-06-15          88567

Well Murf, Since the PTO in question is on a JD tractor what's your point?

Take a couple of aspirin, sit back and chill. Everything will be OK. ....

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JD 4300 hydro PTO slipping

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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
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2004-06-15          88574

A glass of red wine is good for the heart, just ask your French cousins.

Lifts the spirits too..... ....

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JD 4300 hydro PTO slipping

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AnnBrush
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 463 Troy OH
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2004-06-15          88579

From the way this thread is going looks like I might need a bottle or even a case of red wine. Perhaps I can just ignore it and like most problems it will just go away, perhaps if I drain the hyd oil, rust will set in and re-attach those pesky clutch plates. Thanks for y'all comments. ....

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JD 4300 hydro PTO slipping

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2004-06-15          88584

Now Billy, just because your enamored with those greene Yanmars don't go jumping all over me...LOL.

I'm the first to admit when I'm wrong or made a mistake, and it does happen, luckily the divorce didn't cost me much.

Ann, it all comes down to 'mind over matter', if you don't mind, it doesn't matter.

Best of luck. ....

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JD 4300 hydro PTO slipping

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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2004-06-15          88624

Ann I think Ken pretty well hit the mark on the pto clutch/brake assembly removal from the back of the tractor transmission case. The rear cover looks to be held in by 12 bolts. Can this be done by the owner?????? Sure......provided you have the special tools and measuring devices to check tolerances and clearances. I certainly would NOT attempt taking it apart. The headache you save by letting the Deere shop do this is WELL worth the $60 to $80 per hour shop labor charge.

Basically the pto clutch/brake assembly or basket as has been described requires a rebuild kit which contains all of the clutch plates and disks, as well as any seals and o-rings. Its gonna be expensive......;o) but hopefully not expensive as you might think.

Call your Deere dealer and ask them what they will charge to rebuild the pto clutch/brake assembly. Best to let them do it......if they screw it up, they have the resources to cover it and get it fixed right. You or a local shade tree mechanic don't. Not saying that it can't be done by your favorite mechanic or by you even. The question is do you want to get neck deep into this job only to find out that it is beyond you ability due to special tools or other required shop items?

Sorry to hear about your bad luck with the pto and sure hope you can get it repaired at a reasonable price Ann. Let us know what you decide to do and how things turn out. ....

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AnnBrush
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 463 Troy OH
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2004-06-15          88635

I took out the two shear bolts from the auger / PHD gearbox connection and attached them as my photo #1. Looks like they were stressed pretty bad but seeing as there were 2 of them they held on and didn't break before the PTO clutch started wearing. How I wish there had been only one of them, probably would have sheared right off. ....

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DK35vince
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2004-06-15          88636

I believe those 2 bolts hold the auger head on the gearbox.
There should only be 1 shear bolt, attaching the PTO shaft to the gearbox. ....

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JD 4300 hydro PTO slipping

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Chief
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2004-06-15          88639

Ann, make sure you replace those shear bolts with the correct grade bolt called for in the manual. (typically grade 2) Using the wrong grade bolt as the shear bolt can cause the same or similar problem to recurr. ....

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harvey
Join Date: Sep 2000
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2004-06-16          88653

The auger is typically held by 2 bolts. Typically there is a shear bolt in the pto yoke going into the gear box. Youu gotta pull the guard back to see it. I'm sure there are other methods but this seems the most prevelant.

A thought on the slipping, (cause I've done it) was the pto lever fully engaged? When I do post holes I try to cover both levers to control down speed and to disengage pto if needed. I do bump the pto lever from time to time and the auger does what Ann says and I go: DUH! ....

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Chief
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2004-07-11          90545

Ann, what is the latest update with your pto situation? Have you been able to get the repairs done? I would be interested in what was found to be the problem if you have. ....

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