Go Bottomturf tearing on 4300 JD
 | Tim
Join Date: Posts: 1 
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1999-08-18 7075
Has anyone heard the latest on the turf tearing issue? Talked to my salesperson the other day, she said it was the first time she has heard of this issue! I love my JD, but this thing will massacre the lawn if turned past 3/4 way left or right (in 2x4, with turf tires, with and w/o brakes applied)Also, has anyone with the turf tires experimented with side to side rim/tire swaps to make the tractor a little wider so it doesn't feel so tippy on sidehills?
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| MichaelSnyder
Join Date: Jun 1999 Posts: 0
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1999-08-19 7078
Tim,A 4300 is NOT exactly a light "lawnmower"! This may be part of the "compremise" of having a "do it all" tractor!!...IMHO, you are dealing with three main issues. You may also notice that this problem is posted mostly by JD4000 guys, and some NH. Keeping that thought in mind, I''ll let you answer your own question. First off, What direction are your rear wheels PUSHING the front of the tractor? Secondly, how much WEIGHT & SPEED is applied to that direction of PUSH? Thirdly, notice this wasn't as much a problem on the old tractors that only steer about "3/4" as sharp as yours? FRICTION is what allows anything to change its current direction of travel. Your turf is what offers that friction, and is limited by its type, soil and moisture content, if that limit is exceeded, damage will occur. No different than a race car sliding off the track in a curve. The limit of available friction was exceeded. This isn't a problem on the $899 lawnmowers, because the turf's available friction is higher than the tractor can offer. My recommendations are to (1.) slow down when turning, (2.) Don't steer past 3/4, (3.) Trade it in on an older unit or one that doesn't steer as hard. I'm struggling not to mention a particular brand, especially after this weeks "Holier than thou" Postings for that brand. ....
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| Tim
Join Date: Posts: 1
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1999-08-19 7089
Ok, let me rephrase my question so I don't sound like a mowing hotrod! When this is happening, I can be traveling at a speed just SLIGHTLY faster than the speed of drying paint, so that is NOT the issue. The issue is that the outside tire appears to be toed-in way too much after the point of 3/4 turned or more, which on the JD is approximately 40-45 degrees in either direction (I also believe the specs on the JD 4300 list the turn at 55 degrees max in either direction). This tearing can be observed in a left or right turn. This is also apparent if on gravel and will also leave a nice black mark on blacktop if turned too sharp in the driveway. (Thanks for the lesson on friction, I must have missed that lecture in physics class) The real reason that I posted this question, is to get some feedback from another 4000 series owner, not a used-tractor-wannabe-a-new-one owner. And yes,I did trade in my Boomer to buy this 4300, and yes, this 4300 is 10 times the unit that my Boomer was. If you are responding to these postings, let's give REAL answers and skip the "NO DUH" answers. ....
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| Mike
Join Date: Posts: 1
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1999-08-19 7092
This problem is not uncommon with the 4000 line of JD compact diesels. My 4400 with R4 tires will tear out K31 fescue and kill it where I make a turn that is not real tight nor under much speed. I have to agree with another poster that the weight of the tractor has a lot to do with it--with a mowing deck, your 4300 weighs over 3000 pounds. While mowing or doing loader work over a yard, I have to be extra careful in the turns. It is an all-purpose tractor. A previous post mentioned that JD was working on a fix, but I am a little cynical on that. Kubota offers some models with bispeed turning for their front wheels. The only solution of which I am aware is to slow it down and increase the radius of your turn. I wish there were a better answer.Mike ....
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| MichaelSnyder
Join Date: Jun 1999 Posts: 0
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1999-08-19 7094
Tim,Sorry for the misinterpretation of your question, Or knowing your personal experience in tractors, Physics & Steering Geometry. No-one here appreciates the attitude. The CTB has alot of beginners in the Compact arena, who understandably know very little about what they just spend a ton of money on. You didn't mention you had previous experience or a Boomer, which appearantly didn't have this "problem". I'm not sure how to answer your question, based upon your rude & "know it all" response. I don't think anyone here can read minds at the moment. If your Boomer create this effect, your right, I don't know what to tell you...And apologies for posting. I also don't know what to tell you, because every tractor I've ever seen and used, ranging from a 150hp International down to a 12hp Allis Chalmers has some degree of toe in & positive camber....or is it negative? I'm not sure. I will also mention that I notice this problem is worse on 4wd's with sharp turning radius's. FYI, We have an old AC & a NEW JD 4100HST, of which the 4100 with R4's creates the same effect. Sounds to me, like your answer is in your second sentence. As you would say...........NO DUH!! ....
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| MichaelSnyder
Join Date: Jun 1999 Posts: 0
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1999-08-19 7095
Tim,Sorry for the misinterpretation of your question, Or knowing your personal experience in tractors, Physics & Steering Geometry. No-one here appreciates the attitude. The CTB has alot of beginners in the Compact arena, who understandably know very little about what they just spend a ton of money on. You didn't mention you had previous experience or a Boomer, which appearantly didn't have this "problem". I'm not sure how to answer your question, based upon your rude & "know it all" response. I don't think anyone here can read minds at the moment. If your Boomer didn't create this effect, your right, I don't know what to tell you...And apologies for posting. I also don't know what to tell you, because every tractor I've ever seen and used, ranging from a 150hp International down to a 12hp Allis Chalmers has some degree of toe in & positive camber....or is it negative? I'm not sure. Anyway, I will also mention that I notice this problem is worse on 4wd's with sharp turning radius's. FYI, We have an old AC & a NEW JD 4100HST, of which the 4100 with R4's creates the same effect. Sounds to me, like the answer your looking for, is in YOUR second sentence. As you would say...........NO DUH!! ....
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| Ted
Join Date: Posts: 1
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1999-08-19 7097
Tim:As a landscaper with a fleet of 'Orange' compacts I can tell you it is NOT a problem peculiar to only one colour. The problem is like others mentioned, friction, the fact of the matter is, in order to make these things manouverable, the manufacturers have designed them a)to turn way sharper than any turf can handle, and b)with power steering, it is a 'double whammy'. The down & dirty solution is....turn more gently (3 point turns if necessary) and ALWAYS at a speed just a little FASTER than paint dries, NEVER with the machine standing still. As for the 'toe in' almost ALL wheeled equipment turns the inside wheel tighter in a corner than the outside tire, it is just a result of the geometry involved, etc. ....
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| Steve
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 179 UK
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1999-08-19 7099
The weight of the tractor should not be blaimed for this problem. My JD1070 4WD with mid-mount 72" mower is over 3600 lbs and I can turn sharp at a high mowing speed with no trouble at all. You say your tractor makes a black mark on pavement when you make a normal turn? Something needs to be adjusted! ....
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| Tom
Join Date: Posts: 1
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1999-08-19 7104
I had posted a question regarding turf tearing with my 4300. I also received many responses that I wasn't driving correctly. When I went to my Deere dealer with a complaint he found out that Deere is in the process of providing a new front end on all 4000 series tractors as they blew the design. I was told that this would be available in Oct/Nov. This was according to the head of North American marketing for the 4000 series tractors. I would suggest you contact your dealer. It is not you. ....
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| Tim
Join Date: Posts: 1
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1999-08-19 7110
Ok, ok, point well taken! I take back all the attitude, I just got carried away. I should have given a little more info the first posting of mine about the specifics on the tearing problem. Either way, I appreciate all the responses and hope that someone will also give me some feedback on the tire/rim swapping question that I had also. (my background also has me on A/C tractors on my Dad's side, and IH & Farmall on my mom's side with a combined total of 23 tractors presently that I have the opportunity to drive and yes, a couple of them DO toe-in a little, but none of them were targeted by the marketing divisions of their respective companies to perform lawnmowing duties as is the 4000 series tractors) Now that I think about it, I really hated that physics class anyways. ....
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| Roger L.
Join Date: Jun 1999 Posts: 0
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1999-08-20 7114
Nor is it confined to any one make. I'm beginning to wonder if it isn't the result of too-sharp turning radius combinedwith aggressive lug tires. My 6000 pound JD doesn't tear up the grass. It doesn't slip or "push the front" out either. It has verysmooth five rib front tires. Almost no tread at all, and lock to lock is less than 45 degrees. My 3500 pound Yanmar with aggressive Ag style front tires eats up grass terribly on the turns. I am in 2wd, and at about2/3 of the available steering lock it will begin to "push the front end" and tear up the turf. Normally this is a situation that is associated with a condition called "toe out". As someone before correctly stated, "toe out" is part of the geometric designof the front end of the tractor in which the inside wheel turns sharper than the outer. ("Toe out" is built into the steerig geometry,it cannot be adjusted, and it is NOT the opposite of "toe in".) I'm wondering what JD will be looking at for a re-designed front end? My Yanmar 336D could sure use it too!! Just to satisfy my curiousity, does anyone have a 4000 series JD with turf tires that has this problem? Roger Loving ....
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| MichaelSnyder
Join Date: Jun 1999 Posts: 0
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1999-08-20 7124
Roger,Our lighter 4100 can also be a little hard on the grass in a turn, but I honestly cannot say it is more than I expected. Especially when looking at my R4s and as Tim mentioned, about 55 degrees lock to lock turning. What would really be interesting to know is if NH Supersteer has this problem. I think this is the tightest radius on the market. Something I though about last night Tim, are your fronts leaving marks on pavement when driving straight? and/or are the tread blocks (turfs) showing aggressive wear on the front/outer edges? My reasoning being, excessive toe-in will leave rubber marks and the outer tread blocks tend to "chunk" or look torn up. Does anyone know how much toe-in is normal? degrees or percentage? Or is it independent of each tractor? Also, what about Caster/camber? Obviously not adjustable, but isn't this also a culprit? In that the weight of the tractor is only riding on the outer edge of the tire, adding to the snowplow effect? ....
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| Tim
Join Date: Posts: 1
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1999-08-20 7143
mls,My Boomer had supersteer, but was eqipped with the R-4 tires. I had a 72" belly mower on that tractor also. The tread pattern of the R4 tires is designed for pulling straight forward and they tend to slip if on a sidehill or if blading the driveway (angled with a load of snow). This also meant when I turned too sharp when mowing, the tractor would start to overpower the tires and push straight ahead, even at very slow speeds. I guess the people that I have talked to have said the Boomer was excellent for belly mowing when equipped with the turf tires because the tires were much better suited for turning that the R4's were. I like the turf tires better when plowing snow with the blade angled because it doesn't push the tractor sideways as much. And to answer your question, my tires are a little worn, but not too bad yet. And a response to Roger, my Boomer had very good road manners with the alignment being very precise compared to the JD4300. I think Deere should play around with the caster/camber a little because it wants to wander a lot at road speed and does not have good steering wheel return at this speed; Thanks ....
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 | dsg
Join Date: Jun 1999 Posts: 528 Franklin, Maine 
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1999-08-20 7148
Tim; I think JD has been playing with the frontend and has gone in the wrong direction with the 4000 series. I have a JD 755 which was replaced by the 4100. I finish mow about 2 1/2 acres. I have turfs and have light duty chains on front for when I'm digging in the gravel pit. It's to muchof a pian to take them off for mowing.I use full range of motion when turning and have no problem with scuffing up the turf. I do believe JD has designed the new tractors with to tight a turning radius.David ....
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| Ted
Join Date: Posts: 1
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1999-08-20 7150
The techies at Kubota told me the turf shredding is merely a result of an efficient drive system versus grass, the turf ALWAYS loses. I have recently been spec'ing pillow block turfs (235/85R20's) on all my machines, yes, ESPECIALLY for loader work. Many more lugs mean many more points of traction, plus they have the highest weight rating, even more than the R4's, and they are unbeatable for hills, snow, ice, and wet turf. ....
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| Matt
Join Date: Posts: 1
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1999-08-24 7286
Tim,Wow! My potential hero! (no kidding) I'm considering a Boomer TC25D or a JD 4200. I want hydro., & 4x4 (like everyone else). Mostly I'll mow with it. Considering a 72" finish mower or a flail mower, or a 72" mid-mount. I have almost 6 acres to mow and part of it is pretty rough. Also, I have lots of trees to mow around. Therefore, turning radius is pretty important to me. I like the design of the 4200's hydro pedal and brake pedals. They seem to be much easier to operate when I want to turn and punch either the left or right brake to pivot. I will use the machine to till, box blade, and level some. When I can afford to, I'll put a loader on. There's lots of features on the Boomer that really interest me. SuperSteer is one of them. Since you've had both, please enlighten me before I dump $15 grand on the wrong thing. ....
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| Tim
Join Date: Posts: 1
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1999-08-27 7385
Matt,I will try to give best and worst of everything if possible.Engine.....Boomer had very poor power output! Driving on the road in high range resulted in me having to shut the cruise off, back off on the pedal until I was down to walking speeds. Hills sucked! JD has very good power, although Boomer had 25.3hp and JD has 32, hard to compare.Tires.....If I ever trade again, I will probably get the turf tires again. Boomer had the R4 tires (skid loader style), which made angle-blading difficult (tractor would slide sideways sometimes due to tire design) JD has turf tires which I think give me as good or better traction all-around than my R4 tires did on snow and gravel.Hydraulics....Boomer had pathetic loader power! Would not lift the front tires off the ground when scraping, and most of the time I had to take 1/2 bucket loads because the rams would not offer enough breakout force to lift the dirt/gravel/snow that was in the bucket! (quick-connects leaked like crazy too!)Steering....I never really used the brakes that much on the Boomer since the turning radius was so short (supersteer is great, may have been better if I had put turf tires on front end). JD is constantly scuffing turf/gravel/blacktop whenever turning more than 45 degrees or so. (yes, I do know how to drive this thing,,, 2x4, low speeds and it still scuffs)Controls..... Boomer controls are much easier to use. Seat....Boomer is much better suspended, more comfortable over rough lawns.Tilt wheel...Boomer had tilt/telescope wheel, JD only has tilt3-point.... I really miss my deluxe 3 point on my boomer! JD sucks!Overall.....My wife has said recently that she still liked the Boomer better, that she felt more comfortable/safe when mowing with it. I think the Boomer has better curbside appeal, JD is more for the workhorse stuff.Boomer better:Tilt wheel, seat, controls, overall look, Deluxe 3 point setup.JD better: more power, engine is quieter/easier to start/way less startup smoke, better loader performance, live pto (no clutching to engage)I hear that New Holland has "fixed" the smoking/low power output problem and have also made the pto "live", no clutching.hmmmm... almost makes me want to buy another Boomer......almost ....
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| Matt
Join Date: Posts: 1
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1999-09-01 7572
Tim,Thanks! I've been out of town so I'm just now able to read your reply. I think I drove my wife crazy telling her how anxious I have been to read your reply. Sounds like if we combine the two machines we'll have the perfect tractor. I still don't know what I'll do but I'll probally print your post and put it under my pillow tonight and see if I have any revelations.Thanks again!!MattPS- According to my JD dealer you're not the only one with the scuffing problem. Maybe we just need a hover-craft!! ....
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| Larry
Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 0 St.Davids
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1999-09-08 7772
Reality Check:I think it is time for a reality check. Lots of questions about how do you mow, do you have tractor experience, are you a crazed yuppie with a new toy (inferred). The bottom line is I paid a fortune for my 4100 w/60" deck. It darn sure should be able to mow my lawn without removing portions of it. ....
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| Russ
Join Date: Posts: 1
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1999-11-29 10451
There is a LOT (one heck of a lot) of posts on the JD 4000 series tire/axle scuffing problem. I'm an experienced owner/user and I have provided turf care with both the 55 and 70 series machines up to the 1070. None of these machines would tear up turf (except in 4WD) when used at a reasonable speed - even when turned at maximum lock! None of these machines would leave rubber marks on concrete (except in 4WD) either! I recently took delivery of a JD 4400 HST and it definately has a steering geometry/axle geometry problem. I am working with my dealer to rectify the problem and I fully expect to have NO steering problem when this is over. If I am not satisfied then I will pursue other alternatives until the problem is rectified. Other than the steering problem, I love my JD 4400!! ....
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