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 11-07-2002, 12:39 Post: 44711
WEST
2002-11-07 12:39:59
Post: 44711
 4210 HYDRAULIC PROBLEM

HAS ANYONE HAD ANY PROBLEMS WITH THE HYDRAULIC PUMP ON THE NEW 4000 TEN SERIES JOHN DEERE?






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 11-07-2002, 17:18 Post: 44719
Maurice
2002-11-07 00:00:00
Post: 44719
 4210 HYDRAULIC PROBLEM

I have a 4310 and have had some problems with the lift cylinders chattering when first lifted on the 430 loader. What are you having for problems?






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 11-08-2002, 06:11 Post: 44741
WEST
2002-11-08 00:00:00
Post: 44741
 4210 HYDRAULIC PROBLEM

I HAVE 124 HOURS ON MY 4210, THE OTHER DAY I WAS USING THE BRUSH HOG AND STOPPED FOR A MINUTE, WHEN I ENGAGED THE PTO THINGS HAPPENED, ALOT SQUELING ANDWINING, NO HYDROSTAT. I SHUT IT DOWN AND CALLED THE DEALER. THEY CAME AND PICKED IT UP THE NEXT MORNING. I STOPPED IN TO CHECK THINGS OUT 2 DAYS LATER, AND THEY HAD FOUND THAT THE INTERNAL SPLINES IN THE CLUTCH HAD BEEN COMPLETELY WIPED OUT AND THE INPUT SHAFT ON THE HYDRAULIC PUMP HAD A TWIST IN IT. I BOUGHT THE JOHN DEERE BECAUSE I THOUGHT IT WAS THE BEST, NOW I'M A LITTLE WORRIED.






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 11-08-2002, 06:45 Post: 44743
TomG

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 4210 HYDRAULIC PROBLEM

It sounds like two separate problems and I imagine it's under warranty so the pain will be less. Big rotary cutters are hard on PTO clutches, but you wouldn't expect shaft splines to strip if the tractor is within the recommended power range of the cutter. A big cutter with a heavy shear pin or heavily adjusted slip-clutch might do it and there might be a warranty problem if it wasn't a dealer recommended configuration.

It's hard to make a case that the pump shaft bent other than from a manufacturing defect or design problem. Pressure relief valves are supposed to prevent excessive mechanical loads on the pump as well as excessive pressures on the hydraulic components, and the relief valves are pretty reliable things. There's a good chance that the shaft twisted due to a bind in the pump or drive gear--which still comes under the heading of a defect. It really shouldn't happen.

I don't know about loader chattering. My used one chattered when I tried to ease it down with heavy loads. It turned out to be a lubrication problem. For some reason the upper lift cylinder bushings had 90-degree zircs in them that were almost impossible to get a greased gun on. I replaced them with 45-degree fittings, greased it well several times and the chattering went away.






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 11-08-2002, 06:56 Post: 44744
Billy

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 4210 HYDRAULIC PROBLEM

What RPM was your tractor when you engaged the cutter? You should idle down when you engage any piece of equipment. It's easier on the tractor and the equipment.

Billy






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 11-08-2002, 07:34 Post: 44747
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2002-11-08 00:00:00
Post: 44747
 4210 HYDRAULIC PROBLEM

THE CUTTER IS A 5FT. JOHN DEERE I PURCHASED NEW WITH THE TRACTOR. ENGINE RPM'S WERE AT 1000, OR 10 ON THE TACH.






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 11-08-2002, 09:50 Post: 44753
jeff r



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 4210 HYDRAULIC PROBLEM

I will bet the input shaft was not properly heat treated to get the the proper tensile strength. Hardness and tensile strength material testing machines is what I sell and service for a living for most major manufacturers. Take the damaged part to a test Lab and get it Rockwell hardness tested and I will bet you IT DOES NOT MEET manufacturers's SPECIFICATIONS. Have them chop it in half and Rockwell Test the core because some mfg's just case harden the surface for splines and gears using the Rockwell 15N scale. Nevertheless, there is a specification for core hardness and if that part was "soft" it would twist like a pretzel under torque. This part failed because it wasn't properly heat treated for proper hardness. I wonder how many of these parts got through QC because these parts are heat treated in batches. If one failed then a whole batch of them got through and where installed in somebody's GREEN tractor and are ready to fail.






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 11-08-2002, 23:12 Post: 44768
DH83
2002-11-08 00:00:00
Post: 44768
 4210 HYDRAULIC PROBLEM

OK WEST,we won't tell anybody,how big were the boulders you
were trying to chop up?I have chopped up 3-4" trees with
my 4310/6ft bush hog,even killed the engine off many times.
Changed the hyd oil at 50 hrs and cut the filter a part,
filter was still clean.I hope they find a reason for this
failure and not a design problem.I wonder if the clutch on
the 4210,4310&4410 are all the same? Sorry to hear about
your probems...keep us posted






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 11-09-2002, 05:32 Post: 44769
TomG

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 4210 HYDRAULIC PROBLEM

I have heard of slip-clutches on cutters rusting together but I don't think heard of it causing this type damage. I've also heard of people giving themselves problems by greasing slip-clutches.

Jeff: My male shepherd was given to chewing things as a pup. After he tackled an aluminum over-head lawn sprinkler, my dad suggested naming him Rockwell. Most people thought I just liked Norman Rockwell. Could be but that wasn't the point. The dog just liked to test the hardness of anything for the first few months.

I wondered about the pump shaft myself and it does seem a likely explanation. There are stories that JD did have a heat-treating problem with some hydraulic cylinder shafts.

Pure speculation, but I think of heat-treating as a pretty straightforward process. You know the alloy, you know the quenching temperature. You know the blank's size and you know how long to heat it. You know the Rockwell spec of the final part, you know the tempering temperature and time. I'm not up enough on the subject to know how case or other surface hardening might affect the tempering process, but it still is probably pretty straightforward. However, I guess mass production can get complicated. Maybe one part of the company substituted an alloy and another part of the company didn't recognize that a different protocol was needed. Maybe one company makes the blanks, another does the machining and a third the heat-treating. Plenty of chances for communications lapses in a modern corporate behemoth. Who knows, but from my view of the world, I just hope the tractor gets fixed without a lot of difficulty.






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 11-09-2002, 10:14 Post: 44782
jeff r



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 4210 HYDRAULIC PROBLEM

Your right Tom pretty straightforward process on heat treating, but here's what happens. Somebody is suppose to be monitoring quench temperatures in Quality Control and such but he gets involved in a break room card game or similar distraction.....get the picture? Most mistakes, if a not all involved in "soft" parts screw-ups are in oven temperature. You never hear about parts in my business of being TOO HARD. TOO MUCH HARDNESS COST MONEY. It is ALways TOO SOFT. I will bet the core hardness of that twisted shaft should be in excess of 50 Rockwell C and a case hardness of 90 or better on Rockwell 15N. They convert that to tensile strength and then you get the strength of the shaft. For that shaft to twist ............the tensile must have been like a hardware store Bolt. All machining is done BEFORE the hardening process because after you harden it past.... Hmmmm say past 30 Rockwell C ,,,YOU CANT MACHINE IT ANY MORE because your part is harder than your tooling bits and cutters. If you tear up your tooling somebody in management will be VERY UPSET. In a nut shell, they surface harden down to a certain depth for toughness and core hardnesss is always softer for tensile strength as compared to surface. They DO not use the Rockwell C scale on checking Surface hardness because the 150 kg Major load on the diamond indenter would Blow right through your surface case depth. That is why Rockwell 15n with a major load on the diamond indenter is only 15 Kg. If the entire shaft was hardened to the surface hardness the part COST would be unaffordable. That is why they cross cut the part in half to check core. Then check case depth with a microtester and surface check with Rockwell 15N scale. Simple process but when it gets screwed-up bad things happen. For that shaft to twist and NOT snap......It is pretty obvious to me what happened. Shafts and gears are some of the toughest stuff in my business and they don't TWIST like a pretzel.

And Yes, my company has did service and sold major testing equipment to the agricultural industry including JD and their suppliers. There is No company you can name that we haven't did something for at one time or another in 35 years.






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Discussion Boards > Active Subjects > Messages as Posted > John Deere Review Forum

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