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JD4210 vs Kuby 3010

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IRTEXN
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2002-08-26          41666

Gentlemen - It's down to the nut cuttin', I've gotta pick between the JD 4120 4WD w/ 430 FEL or a Kubota 3010 w/ 482 loader. Both with R4's. There is only $297 dif in my quotes, JD being higher. The only other attachments i plan to add will be a 5' rotary cutter (porbably Rhino)a box blade and a 60" tiller. My question is...is either tractor REALLY any better than the other or is just a metter of does one like green better than orange or visa versa? I'm new to this arena and would appreciate any insight from owners THANKX

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IRTEXN
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2002-08-26          41667

Sorry , that's supposed to be JD 4210 ....

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DRankin
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2002-08-26          41673

I vote orange. It's a total Japanese quality product. The Deere has a great Yanmar engine but seems to still be plagued with niggling problems. You are gonna want this tractor where you can use it when the mood strikes you, not in the shop. ....

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TC29 in Wa.
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2002-08-26          41674

I'd have to go with the L3010. Physically its a bigger tractor. It will handle a bigger loader and 3pt implements. Bigger tires and overall weight spells better traction. And it seems to be one of the best and most popular models Kubota has come out with. Those two models are really not in the same frame size catagory, for the price the Kubota is overall abetter tractor.
However Myactual vote would be for a New Holland TC29D, TC30 or TC33D. ....

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IRTEXN
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2002-08-27          41675

Thanks Mark and TC29....After re-looking the specs, I seen where the 3010 is a bit bigger than the 4210....I guess the 4310 is actually closer. Anyway, I appreciate the input. My heart says green, but the wallet isleaning toward orange. TC, the Boomers are great machines. I fell in love with the TC35, but it's a tad much, size and price for what I need. Anybody else have any advise? ....

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TomG
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2002-08-27          41680

I think I'll write an intentionally overstated attitude just for perspective.

I think that they’re all good machines and that tractors come in about 5 PTO HP increments. One 25-hp compact does pretty much the same work in the same time as another. A 30-hp tractor does the same work but maybe a little faster if it can take wider implements.

Many people figure they're going to keep their tractors indefinitely. A price difference of a few hundred between two tractors divided over 20 years or more seems more like pocket change and shouldn't really be a reason not to get what is really wanted.

A lot if the specs stuff is more apparent than real. Lifting capacity isn't often challenged in on-going work and even when it is it usually slows you down rather than stops you cold. Many ratings also are defined from a manufacturers' views of liability and safety rather than what actually can be lifted. Ratings also are advertising and as such can take a lot of time sorting through and end up by just being confusing. The purpose of much advertising is to confuse.

Another approach is to sit on a tractor and drive it around the yard a bit. The best tractor for a person often just leaps out and grabs you. It's an 'AHH THIS IS THE ONE' experience. That experience has as much to do with how it feels, is it comfortable, are the controls intuitive and is the dealer liked or at least inspires confidence as with the specs?

Analyzing specs can just get in the way of the AHH experience. I'd keep in mind that you're probably going to live with the tractor for a long time. It might be better for the purchase to be more like finding a spouse and less like buying a mutual fund. The thing about having a tractor is that you should REALLY LIKE IT A LOT.
....

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Sparky
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2002-08-27          41684

I think by now you see they are not in the same class. The 3010 is 32 hp & the 4210 is about 26 hp. Smaller tires on the 4210 also. My advise is to eventually tell the salesperson to take a powder and spend some time on whatever you are thinking of buying. Actually try things out, loader, seat, controls. Sit there and get comfortable and see if it feels right for you. Do the controls fit you and operate well for you. As far as actual specs, as long as you have come this far my opinion is nothing less then 3010 or 4310. Mine is a 4400. When I was buying the sales guy told me the 4200 HST ( that was where I started ) was a little weak on hills. Good luck. ....

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MRETHICS
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2002-08-27          41685

Hey Tex,

I recomend following TomG's advice, but do not forget to know your Dealer either. Service after the sale is an often forgotten issue.

One more thing, The John Deere 430 loader will not fit a 4210. It will however fit a 4310. The 4210 will require a 420 loader.

Get on the seats and drive, get on and off several times because you will do this in real life quite frequently. Mount and dismount the loader, see which is easiest and fastest.

Check the service points, which model is it easiest to do routine maint.

As a dealer, I tend to steer inexpierienced oporators to models that are somewhat weak in HP. This is kinda a saftey factor. Latter in years you can get a beast, but you need to learn to walk before you can run. So, resale value is an issue, blue, green , or orange will be ok in that respect.

Lastly, get rear ballast, and have it available when the tractor is delivered. I don't care if you buy the ballast box from the dealer, or make your own, just get it. It's safer that way. ....

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R Kirby
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2002-08-27          41687

I have a 3010 with R4s. I bought a 70 inch wide tiller so that it would be wider than the rear tires. The 3010 with R4 is 64 inches wide. The 60 inch tiller might throw enough dirt to cover the tread marks, but wouldn't really work up all the compacted soil left by the tread. ....

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BrentB
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2002-08-27          41690

I have a 4200 Deere, and I would have to agree it is underpowered if you are going to do much roading. It does not take much of a hill at all to bog it down. Other than that, the power is fine for mowing and such. ....

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IRTEXN
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2002-08-27          41698

Hey Thanks Guys for all the input. It's all good and useful. Hopefully in a few days I'll have something fun to tell ya'll about ....

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DRankin
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2002-08-27          41699

It makes sense that the 4210 HST would be a little sluggish on hills. It weighs 1100 pounds more than the 4100 Gear and only has 3 more useable horsepower. ....

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ctmatt
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2002-08-28          41728

My advice would be to go with the JD 4310 in either the ePower reverser or eHydro transmission. I personally prefer the gear drive model because a hydro machine eats about one horsepower. The nice thing with the new hydros is that they have a "load match" feature that monitors the engine speed in relation to the transmission making it almost impossible to stall the tractor like on the old hydros. Basically it brings the torq up as load increases. I reccommend the 4310 (32 engine hp) over the 4210 (28 engine hp) because for the little difference in dollars you get more horsepower, more hydraulics, and larger tires. The 4210 takes the 420 loader which has a 1003 lb. lift capacity at 86.5 inches (full height) and the 4310 takes either the 420 or 430 loader, but you should definately get a 430 loader with the 4310. Lift capacity is 1258 lbs. at 101.4 inches (full height) and breakout force is 3299 lbs. at the pivot vs. 2141 lbs. breakout force on the 420. Breakout force is where you get your work done. The 4310 will also take either the 47 or 48 backoe vs. only the 47 on the 4210. The 48 hoe not only gives you more digging depth but it is also more substantial. The 4310 also gives you more lift capacity on the 3pt. hitch so you can get into the MX series rotary cutters vs. the lighter duty LX series. Also keep in mind that JD holds the highest resale value on the market (not that you'll want to get rid of it) and parts/service is never an issue. The new 4010 series is much improved over the early straight 4000 series, not only did JD make fit and finish updates to the operator station they also made quality improvements to the DSCV (dual selective control valve) and the way the hydraulic/transmission fluid is filtered through the system. The electrical controls where also a great idea. Don't be afraid of it either. It is old technology that JD pulled off their large AG tractors. If you take care of your machine it will take care of you. At one time I had other equipment beside JD and honestly they just don't compare. I now have all JD equipment including a 5320 with a 541 loader and earlier this year I bought a 4510 with a 460 loader and 48 backhoe. I have a 425 with a 60 inch deck for the lawn too. JD has never let me down and now I would never even consider buying anything but a Deere. So go green and you'll never look back. ....

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Sparky
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2002-08-28          41750

I would say Matt voted for JD. ....

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TC29 in Wa.
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2002-08-28          41759

I agree the TC35D is easy to fall in love with. But I would take another look at the Class II Boomers (TC29D,TC30 and the TC33D) they are smaller than the TC35D and probably as cheap or cheaper than the Kubota L3010. ....

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Art White
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2002-09-01          41889

It wasn't to long ago I read a post of the life of tractors that put the bulk of tractors in the 3 to 6000 hour catagory except the Kubota line which was given a few extra thousand hours of life. Tough to argue that as it came from the owners of tractors on the board. To pay more for a smaller model is hard to bring ourselves to do. ....

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DK35vince
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2002-09-01          41890

Art,
Your trying to tell me that Kubota has a several thousand hour longer average life than other compact tractors?
Give me a break !!

....

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DRankin
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2002-09-01          41891

Wolbert, I don't know about enough tractors, but it sure works in pick-up trucks. I know for sure there are some 80's Toyota trucks running around out there with a quarter million miles on them. They drive by junkyards every day filled with newer, lesser milage trucks fading away in the desert sun. ....

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Fitch
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2002-09-01          41895

I happen to have a JD 770, which has been as reliable as gravity. I don't see many problems posted about it on this board either. I drove a JD 60 in my youth and developed a strong liking for green machines. So I'm a bit biased.

I looked at JD, Kubota, and Ford/New Holland. Either would have been acceptable. My number 1 criteria was being able to get parts for it in 15 or 20 years. New Holland and JD both support tractors for decades.

I'd avoid the gray market tractors like a disease.

My bias for JD, and the incredibly slick loader mount/dismount on the JD were the deciding factor.

I strongly agree with the recommendation to leave the tractor at the dealers until you have some weight for the back end. If you will be getting a loader and box scraper - then have the rear tires filled with fluid, and put on a couple of the cast iron rear wheel weights on each rear wheel. Box scrapers aren't nearly heavy enough on their own to make the tractor safely stable. You will like its material handling ability with the loader on it a whole lot better when you have the weight on the back.

Fitch

....

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IRTEXN
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2002-09-01          41899

Thanks for the rear ballast advise Fitch ( and others). I am hoping to be able to get the tiller by the spring and will probably leave it on unless I'm mowing. ....

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DK35vince
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2002-09-01          41902

That may be Mark,but I also see that many miles + on many of the Chevy and Ford company trucks at my last and present jobs and they are still used every day. ....

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DRankin
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2002-09-01          41907

Speaking of Kubota’s…………… I spoke with my brother in Alaska today and remembered to ask him how his tractor was doing. He has a Kubota 2250 that he bought new in 1988 or so. It has never spent a day in the garage and the winters there go –40 or better. He uses it to blow/plow the huge snowdrifts he gets in the upper north fork of his Eagle River Valley home. In the summer he uses it to rearrange his boulders and do some light Ag work. He has about 1800 hours on the clock now and is fastidious about his oil and fluid changes.
I asked him if he has had any major problems with it and he said yes, a couple of years ago one of the rear tires went flat.
....

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Art White
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2002-09-02          41914

Wolbert, yup, I am. We've had several go well beyond 10,000 hours with no repairs other than to the decks with blades,belts and bearings and they are still out there only not in there original application as now they are at a homeowner instead of commercial application. And there is a thread somewhere about the hours compact tractors have run. ....

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DK35vince
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2002-09-02          41919

I am not saying that there aren't Kubota tractors that have run that long(there probable are).
But whos to say that another brand of tractor in the same situation would not of lasted just as long !! ....

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Peters
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2002-09-02          41925

Yes some Kubotas have lasted may thousands of hours and I am not sure how many other brands have also lasted that long, but I would like to point out that these tractors were not designed to do these hours. I have seen Kubotas with major engine problems with less than 2000 hrs.
Why do I say this? What is the grey market tractors? These tractors were designed initially for a small farm in Japan. They are trading their tractors in, creating grey tractors with less than 2000 hrs. Many of these tractors are 20 years old or more.
I suspect that if the tractors are anything like the Japanese cars, certain models, within a brand, lasted much better than others. I suspect the new tractor are better than the older ones but few have the high hours like the older tractors.
Many of the older Japanese cars (pre 80's) did not last much beyond 50K miles. Why because they were designed for their market were essentially all the cars are traded at 5 years and one places no more than 36K km on the car. Certain cars lasted much longer, the Toyota Crown, the Mitsubishi (Dodge Colt), Nissan 1600 etc. The engines of may of these cars were copies of english designs.
No one has any statistics on the older tractors. Like the older cars a few lasted a million miles or more, while some needed new engines before the tractor was broken in.
I believe the newer tractors all are good but show me the statistics that show how long the average tractor engine lasts for a particular model. This is difficult to do as the company must track their customers and others. ....

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DK35vince
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2002-09-02          41927

Thank you Peters,
Kubota makes a fine tractor,but so does most of the other manufactures.
I see no proof that Kubota outlast them all !!! ....

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Sparky
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2002-09-02          41941

Art, you really got em fired up. ....

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Art White
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2002-09-03          41957

Sparky I sure did but it's good to get people thinking. Peter's , I thought you with your background would be able to put what I said to work not just try and take it apart. Cars all have different life spans, a lot of them are designed for ten years and 100,000 miles. You also have the 150,000 mile, 200,000 mile and 250,000. I don't know of any that exceed the 10 year mark. Tractors are designed in the same way. The better ones are for 10,000 hour life and some for less than that. I have seen engine life less than the manufacturer has designed them for but there were reasons for there premature failures and they were obvious. There were a few I've seen that was a manufacturer error. That happens to but depending on the manufacturer it might be more or less. With the short life needed for the orient just like cars who's to say that they might not center on less hours as a designed life? ....

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Peters
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2002-09-03          41963

Art
I am a scientist and engineer. I am trained to be skeptical about salesmens claims. I even find the JD Power data suspect as people that spent 80K on a car are not likely to claim they have problems and the gold service probably corrects problems during routine service.
What I am saying that 20 years ago the Japanese manufactures were centered on their market. You can see this with the older grey market tractors. The Japanese farmer is just trading some of these tractors now that they have reached 1500-2500 hrs. For the tractor manufacture this was a life time. From what I have been told this was the way the early JD/Yanmars performed. From what I have seen the early Kubotas behaved about the same, although again we have not statistic.
Now that they are centered on the world market I am sure they all engineer for longer hours.
Maybe we need a JD Farmers for the tractors to impartically collect the statistics. ....

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cutter
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2002-09-04          42012

One reason I went back to Kubota is due to the fact that every part in it is Kubota, including the engine. The 250,000 mile cars you see around that are still worth something are usually the ones with the circles on the hoods and a diesel of the same ilk under that hood as well. I believe it speaks volumes when a manufacturer tries to keep most of the components of a product in house where the quality can be closely regulated. My two cents.. ....

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Peters
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2002-09-04          42017

Kioti does the same and have been at it longer than Kubota. ....

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DK35vince
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2002-09-05          42059

Gee,this must mean my Kioti will outlast all other compacts like they claim Kubota does !! ....

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cutter
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2002-09-05          42060

Let me know by sending me a telepathic message when it wears out Wolbert. I'll be long gone and my grandchildren will be on the Kubota. You know you are past 50 when your machines have a longer life expectantcy than you do. ....

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cutter
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2002-09-05          42061

Expectancy that is! ....

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Peters
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2002-09-05          42066

Is it good to have your own diesel in your equipment?
Is this the way heavy truck have opperated in this country? Is the fact that I can put a Detroit, Cat, Cummings etc. in my Volvo, Freightliner, Mack, IH, Sterling good or bad?
Which of the pickups have had their own diesel? Which has the worst record with engine problems? Izuzu? GM?
Yes the circle star on the hood make a good auto diesel, how do they compare with a Cummings large truck engine which gets at least 1 million miles? I know my friend had to have major work on his at 70K. I believe they dropped a new engine in. Major problems with the crank.
I think we all know the quality of the Perkins Diesel in the larger tractors. Has this been a problem over the years?
Don't get me wrong I think Kubota make a good product and sell there engines to other manufactures. Is there relationship with BobCat good or bad? Does it really reflect poorly on BobCat or is it better that BobCat concentrates on the versatility of their machines?
Checking the Logic
Peters
....

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Art White
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2002-09-06          42067

I wasn't aware of Kioti's long building record. When I was in Korea in the early 70's I don't remember seeing them. Isn't that where they are built? ....

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Art White
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2002-09-06          42069

I didn't realize so much happened in the last couple of days here. JD powers is paid to ask certain questions just like my friend Mr. Zogby when he does his polls, and yes depending on the questions you get the answers you want. In this area the Bobcat dealers aggressively sell the merits of the Kubota engines they use. I am bias in this area as I live in the tractor world everyday and see many brands and talk to many people in real use situations. I sell the big tractors and the little ones. Sell two major brands and have had the opurtunity to sell the other two major players on the board over the years. I have refused to sell different models of what we have available just do to reliablity and performance. Yes we do cherry pick with our line up even though it hurts our relationship with the manufacturers from time to time. We have made better relationships with our customers, even though often confusing them in there preferences of brand by giving them the options of the best machinery available to them. This is not what the manufacturers want as they look for us to stay the line with them not our customer base. ....

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Peters
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2002-09-06          42074

Art;
Kioti has been making diesel engines since 49 and equipment since 63.
They seem to be very conservative and have not expanded too rapidly. Cooperation with Kubota in the 80's confused many of us. I certainly thought that they were a Kubota copy or Korean Kubota.
They made a bad mistake when they were first importing into the US. They went through a distributor who set up some second rate dealers. They now go direct and have set up a good parts distribution centers. You may want to look into their product.
I am glad that there are a few dealers around that seriously consider their line and recommend the best performers in their lines. My local blue, orange and IH red dealer does. I am not so sure about the Green and Orange and other red.
Not all customers are going to take the mechanics to coffee to find out the truth in advertising. I don't believe that they should have to but in a lot of dealers they do.
I think that the Kubota/Bobcat relationship is good for both parties and probably pushes quality for the entire tractor line. What is harder on an engine than industial applications? ....


Link:   Kioti

 
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TomG
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2002-09-06          42075

Art's approach is interesting and unusual. It seems to be bucking the 'branded' approach to marketing. The way I've heard branding described is that a brand 'promises an experience.' Once a consumer becomes branded they anticipate that experience simply on the basis of the brand name. That supposedly makes for very easy marketing. The advertising does the work and branded customers show up at a dealer and purchase the name in whatever their budgets allow. I guess it works and if it does, it allows manufacturers to get by with occasional duds, or at least non-competitive, models.

I suspect Art's approach is much more real and durable than the branded approach. I also suspect that keeping track of parts, repair manuals, tech notes, special tools, inventory etc. for several manufacturers is much more work. The staff there must be really good. Ultimately manufacturers may be done favours as well by having fewer 'failed experiences' out there, but I don't imagine there'd be many thanks offered.

I also suspect that it once you depart from the branded approach to marketing that the sales costs for new customers are much higher. Branding does simplify the purchase decision. Once the simplification is gone and the real world peeks through, then customers probably start thinking through things. It probably takes a lot of sales time getting to the idea that this tractor in this size is very good but another tractor is better the next size up.

Well, I like the idea and hope it's profitable. I suspect that the sales costs of keeping customers are very low and maybe compensate for more time and effort required elsewhere. I have a relationship something like with my dealer. I think he's limited to NH tractors, but he has never pushed NH implements. When it comes time for me to buy an implement the sales costs are very low. I don't spend much time analyzing makes. I just ask my dealer what he's got or recommends, and it's always worked out. I guess that's my 'promised experience.' It always works out.
....

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MRETHICS
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2002-09-06          42078

There are several reasons that some truck mfgrs. do not have thier own emg. line.

1) Cost, to mass produce an engine, you have to produce a high enough quantity to be competitive in the marketplace. The costs in just developing a diesel engine are staggering. There are emission standards that need to be met, just to name one. The eng. mfgrs. like Cat. Cummins etc. can produce models of engines that can be used in a variety of applications such as trucks, construction equipment, generators....the list goes on and on. Truck builders do not have those kinds of No.

2) The trucking bussness is HIGHLY competetive, and is full of many different niches. A truck builder can better suit the needs of it's customers if it can offer more than one brand of engine.

3)Stability. If a truck mfgr was locked into one brand of engine...let's say in this case..... Caterpillar, and Caterpillar could not supply engines, due to a labor strike, or problems with one of thier suppliers, or maybe an explosion in the factory....whatever....The truck mfgr. would be in a world of hurt.

4) Customer preferance......'uff said on that


Is useing another brand of eng. a bad thing or a good thing?

That depends on the eng. used I guess.

In the case of John Deere useing Yanmar brand engines in thier compacts and some lawn equipment. It was economics.

The Yanmars have been very good, and Deere did not have an engine of thier own. It has been a good relationship. If one thinks the Deeres are high priced , just think how much more they would cost if Deere had to build a factory and develop an engine? ....

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cutter
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2002-09-06          42104

Everyone has made some good points here. For those of us that can remember, the big three were exclusively made in-house, with the exception of things like seats, carbs, in some cases rear ends and transmissions for trucks as well as many minor components. Knowing that your engine came from the factory your car was manufactured in was a huge deal. GM was sued for putting chevy manufactured motors into Buicks, I believe it was. After that, they put a disclaimer in their literature that stated "GM engines are manufactured at various GM plants" or something like that. Back then, if you purchased a Caddy, you expected a Cadillac made motor, it meant something then. If you bought a Road Runner, it best have the special 383 Road Runner engine with the 440 heads in it and not one from a Dodge station wagon. In todays "world" market, the name on the hood in many cases might be where 60% of the vehicle was made. Or, it might have been made in Japan and marketed here as a Ford. No matter what anyone says, it boils down to economics as MR Ethics stated. If all the manufacturers could make money by producing and marketing only parts they made, I can guarandamtee you they would, and not support their competetion by buying parts from them. Now that's my other two cents. ....

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Peters
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2002-09-07          42120

Janes automtive has a world map out every year. On the map are the automanufactures and OEMS. The inter ownership of the car companies are given in coloured coded keys and lines run to the various manufactures and suppliers. Looking at it give you a whole new prospective on brand loyalty. ....

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Art White
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2002-09-07          42129

Tom, we like to get to know our customers and how they operate there machinery. Some are great for greasing and maintence and for those individuals we look for the machines with grease fittings vs those that don't grease and sealed bearings. Some people do not run there equipment, and they need simpler machines and often without the bells and whistles as they will get frustrated with them depending on their help situation. For us it is as you say with the parts and sevice. I would say if you were to average our employees time with us it would probably be an average of seven to ten years with some in excess of 25 to 30 years. We have had a parts person that had left after just 3 days saying they could never learn all the lines. We do appreciate that as they didn't waste our time either. Some people have called us a "farmers supermarket" and yes it is confusing to some when we start talking the specifications of the different brands available. The good part of it is many of our customers have been with us two generations and trust our knowledge of the industry and the equipment that is available to do their work and do it well. ....

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TomG
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2002-09-08          42137

Glad to hear it Art. Works for me too. I figure that my dealer is in the business and can afford to spend more time than I can keeping up with the industry. My dealer's recommendations are likely to be better what I could come up with even if I spent a bunch of time analyzing. So, I usually just go with the recommendation rather than spend the time to do what the sales staff have already done. All of this reminds me that it's about the time of year I heard from the dealer. I generally get a phone call every year around this time to see how things are going and what I'm thinking about.

I guess it's a matter of trust, and it has worked. Every now and then I do a reality check and actually analyze and shop. Funny thing is that I always end up back with my dealer even though he's a 3-hour drive away and other dealers are closer. I figure that if I have to trust somebody, I'll put it on somebody who calls me every year and whose recommendations work out.

It's a little harder for me to trust things much bigger than a dealership. I believe that there are too many people around big decision-makers who actually think like the marketing theory I mentioned before. It’s not very flattering to be considered 'branded.'
....

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TomG
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2002-09-08          42138

It's strange to compare the N.A. reaction to Olds engines in Cadillacs, Pontiac engines in Oldsmobiles or what ever the controversy was with the British approach.

BMC put a basic 1200 cc engine in everything from Hillmans to Lotus Elites. The tunings were just different. Most of the short blocks were identical on cars that ranged widely in status and price. Engines in racy cars like a roommate's Lotus and his friend's even hotter Mini tended to have less in common with garden variety models but the blocks were the same. The fact that the same parts that went into a clunker like my family's Hillman also went into a Lotus wasn't an issue.

My roommate decided to do a minor rebuild on his Lotus. Neither N.A. Lotus East or West had some valve train part That was a problem since the chassis and body were sitting separately in our parking lot and the school year was about to start. A Lotus parts guy with a cross-reference table found that parts from an English Ford were acceptable substitutes so my roommate bought the parts locally and his Lotus became 'declasse.' He thought it was pretty funny.

I guess the BMC idea was that you really don't need a whole flock of different engines that do the same basic job, and producing a few engine displacements enables efficiencies from longer production runs. Of course, if that was the idea, I don't think it worked out that well for BMC, although perhaps for different reasons.

Who knows maybe we're coming back to the BMC approach. Once the idea is accepted that the manufacturer doesn’t make much of what goes into a vehicle, a very successful engine manufacturer probably will emerge and then everybody's engine will be made in the same factory. We hear about customer loyalty to brands, I wonder how such a situation would bode for manufacturer loyalty to product if manufacturers don’t actually manufacturer much?
....

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cutter
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2002-09-08          42141

Did you attend school in England Tom? You mentioned brands that were not all that prevelent or well known around here, even in the 60's. I have driven an English Ford, Mini, Austin America, Morris Minor, MG 1100, MGB, MGC, MGBGT, Sprite, Midget, Jag XK as well as others I don't even remember, but my all time favorite was/is the Austin Healey 3000 that the dealer was kind enough to let me use to drive to school when I worked as his clean-up boy and car shuffler. One thing I think that can be said for the BMC family is that MOST of what they produced was presented as a driving machine, one that would handle the curves and perform reasonably well. But they did use different engines for different applications, much the same as the American manufacturers. The engine in the Sprite was the same as the one in the Midget, but they met the required specs for that model and certainly a 3000 engine was not used in the Austin America. I always felt the GM law suit was one of the first frovilous ones to hit the books. As long as it met the advertised specs, was made by GM and was made by the parent company, what difference did it make. It wasn't as though GM was using a de-tuned Belair v-8 in a GTO, if they had, the law suit would have been well deserved. When I stated you best get what is being advertised in a previous post, such as the 383 with the 440 heads, that is what I mean by meeting advertised specs. Not specfically that the block has to be punched, assembled and branded at these coordinates and none other. But if it is in a Buick, it probably should say "Buick" on it and not "Chevrolet", much the same as the BMC's family did. I think the safety and emission laws in the US are what helped put the company out of business. They tried to comply with the 5MPH bumpers, and those turned out to be the first of the ungainly looking models. At that point, BMC decided they could not or would not "ruin" their machines by trying to meet US requirements. That realistically, could have been the last nail in the coffin. Do you recall the "knock offs" being changed from the familiar spinner type to an oversized nut looking thing? That was because someone in the US was wearing a scarf long enough to be wound around the spinner while driving it and as a result, his heirs sued due to his death (by stupidity). I wonder whom they would have sued if he had simply run over the long scarf with the rear tire thereby yanking his head off?? Possibly the scarf manufacturer? Well, we no longer are allowed to have the spinner knock offs, but that is a whole diffent topic! ....

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Peters
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2002-09-09          42165

The engine in the Lotus was a Ford engine as were the engines in the Alpines and AC. BMC had nothing to do with it. ....

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cutter
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2002-09-09          42166

I am aware of that Eric, did not mean to imply differently although this is a while back for me. I believe the Sunbeam Alpine was one of Chrysler's bad purchases in the early 70s wasn't it? If I am not mistaken, the Tiger had a Ford v-8 in it at the time, the only sports car I can recall with one. The Lotus is still a Ford trademark isn't it? ....

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TomG
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2002-09-09          42168

A lot of history here and pretty good recollection of it. I'll probably get some gaps in my memory filled in. I'm pretty sure the Elite my roommate had came before the Lotus/Ford arrangement. Certainly there was an arrangement and Lotus formula machines had Ford engines. Probably other models as well. I believe the next road model after the Elite was the Europa, but I have no idea which engine was used.

At any rate the engine could have been Ford, but I have a pretty specific recollection of my roomie and his friend with the Mini comparing the various modifications to their particular 1200 cc engines as well as the English Ford part story. I've also never been certain of the relationship between Ford and English Ford so maybe Ford engine means English Ford or maybe Elites before the arrangement used BMC engines. Anyway, I'm always happy to have my recollections touched up if necessary.

I didn't go to school in England. Knew a lot of people with British cars though. My roomie with the Lotus was after I got out of the service around '68. My best school chum before service had an AH 3000. One of my sergeants had an Aston-Martin DB II-3 for a short while. He unfortunately totaled it with me along for the ride. Myself, I had a '52 Nash-Healey from about '64-'70. Nash-Healy was an earlier version of the Lotus/Ford arrangement. I liked the AH 3000 too, but the Elite may have been the quickest British road car ever imported to U.S.

Another friend had a novice SCCA license and raced a 1600 Datsun with sponsorship from a local dealer. You could do that sort of thing and sort of be competitive with a much smaller budget using a Japanese rather than a British car. Probably what killed British motorcycles was trying to win races in 1970 with WWII designed engines. Maybe the manufactures of both cars and bikes sat on the basic designs too long and didn't recognize the threats to their markets. Competition could have had as much effect as the U.S. regulations.

Too bad about the Alpines. They sure did accelerate though.
....

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Art White
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2002-09-09          42169

Tom I don't remember the Alpines to have to much acceleration at least nothing like the Tigers, if my memeory is right they couldn't keep up with the TR-3's I had. I think Griffith's were in there with the Ford engine to as I remember sticking a 327 chevy in one of those back before I went into the service. ....

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TomG
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2002-09-09          42179

Thanks Art. I thought this car stuff was gone from my life. It's been nothing but vans and pickups for my since 1970. It's good and maybe I'll start singing 'Memories,' but I'll probably have to touch up my recollections of the lyrics as well.

I remember seeing a few Alpines driving around. I thought some had small N.A. 8's in them and were long on acceleration but short on handling. I think I remember seeing comparative specs in some magazine article back then and thinking it was a lot of acceleration. At the time I may have had my 37 Olds Coup with a '60 Buick engine, which just before the Nash-Healey. It should have accelerated faster than it did but acceleration impressed me at the time.
....

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Peters
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2002-09-09          42184

The alpine and the Tiger were essentually the same car. One could change the engine over to the 289 fairly easily and many Alpines were converted.
The Tiger was not the best balanced with the large weight in the front. The could perform but like the Porche of the era they could bite easily.
A friend had a stock one in college. A friend of mine had one in his junk yard that had raged around the coast for a while. It was lowered and road race ready. It handled quite well but with the light rear and far too much power it was dangerous and a girl died in the car.
Lotus was purchased by GM held for a few years and then sold to Proton of Malaysia. Lotus - Ford was just a component purchases.
....

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DRankin
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2002-09-09          42185

I remember the Brit sports car you guys are talking about, I just cannot recall if it was called a Tiger or whatever. It had a 260 cubic inch Ford V-8 shoehorned into the engine compartment. It went straight pretty good but was mighty nose heavy on the corners. ....

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cutter
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2002-09-09          42200

I am a bit rusty o the subject, but was thinking the engine was a 289 Ford with a 4bbl. Lots of small block Chevy V-8's found there way into the Brits and actually still do. You can find some of the better ones in hot rod websites, nothing I would care to own though too nose heavy as TG stated. How about that newly designed Viper, if I only had an extra 80k laying around. I have to say, one of the things that always made me feel "warm" in the BMC cars was the smell of the high quality leather and the look of the wood dash some sported. Almost like running our old Chris-Craft Capri around on the highway. ....

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Peters
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2002-09-09          42201

A friend had an old Jag salon. It was more like riding inside a desk as the dash and doors were burled walnut.
Some thing like a MGA with the twin cams had balance and power, but none were imported to the states.
The AC Cobra was racing competative with Shelby's magic touch.
The Lotus Elan also had both but the engine is wound pretty tight to acheive the power. Have some friends that were racing an old Elan in the SCCA series. It was competative despite a 35 year old racing log, when it stayed together. ....

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cutter
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2002-09-09          42203

You can tell which ones really caught on, they can be purchased new as reproductions or brand new models. My favorite mass produced look-alike is the new BMW "MINI" for its looks, not a great write-up though. That new Thunderbird is quite a looker as well. ....

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DRankin
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2002-09-09          42208

It was a 260 cu. inch. I can't remember to take out the trash but my head is full of meaningless factoids like that one.
I guess there were 289's also but this is the one I remember. ....


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TomG
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2002-09-10          42225

Peters: Thanks for the refresher. Of course, I may never have had it completely right even way back then. I forgot the Elan replaced the Elite and came before the Europa. I guess something called Lotus would be a good match for Malaysia, but something called a Tiger might be ever better. Seems like I confused my Alpines and Tigers. Probably inexcusable since I don't suppose you really find too many tigers in alpine areas.

I never knew what happened to Lotus. The last I heard about Aston-Martin was that the company had to scrap hand-built production. They probably didn't survive an assembly line. One of my regrets is that I didn't buy a Jag 3.2 Sedan on a used car lot in Biloxi in 1963 when I was stationed there. I think the price was $650, but I never looked seriously enough to tell the car's condition. Take home pay was $32/per mouth, or payday I can't remember which didn’t do much for car buying of any kind.
....

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