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FJ45
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2001-08-31          31477

I would like to know if any one has had any experience with the 4100 scuffing grass when making tight turns. IE triming around trees. I run a 60 deck with the tri-cycle mulcher and love it for mowing but need to watch tight turns. I seem to remember problems a year or two ago on larger (4200+) 4000 tractors. I have owened this one for about a year. Thanks.

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Terry Senay
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2001-09-02          31507

FJ45, I have a 4100 with R4 tires and get a little scuffing. It is usually when I have the forward speed a little high or the ground is a little moist. I have found that if you take it slow you'll reduce the chance of scuffing. Also, do you have your 4 wheel drive engaged? That will increase your chances of scuffing also. Good luck. ....

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DRankin
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2001-09-02          31517

I agree that the 4wd on a 4100 will increase scuffing on grass and soil. The dealers book on this model says that the tires and gears are set up so that the front wheels turn faster than the rears. And when you make a tight turn the situation is even worse because the wheel on the inside of the turn is running at the same speed as the outside tire. ....

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Roger L.
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2001-09-02          31522

Mark, when I read that it sounds like you are implying that the inner and outer tire on the same axle have to turn at the same speed. But I believe that they can turn at different speeds because of the differential gear set between the tires. Maybe it was just the wording that threw me. ....

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FJ45
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2001-09-03          31528

The tire scuff is in 2X4 and at low speeds. I have talked to a dealer who said the early 4100 had a slight problem. He thought my dealer could send in a request for a replacement (new style) frt axle. If any one has experiance about having a non recall fix done please give me your thoughts. Is this more of the squeaky wheel getting the attention? ....

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DRankin
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2001-09-03          31533

Roger, I live on a sand dune and I ues 4wd all the time and I usually have my differential lock engaged also. ....

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Roger L.
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2001-09-04          31544

Right. ....

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DRankin
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2001-09-04          31568

Yes right. Maybe you can offer another explaination for the twin ruts my front wheels leave in soft soils every time I turn the wheels. ....

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Joe A. Bell
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2001-09-05          31594

I mow with my 4100 (54" deck) and have not found a problem as long as I am in 2wd and am not too aggressive (i.e., too fast)

bell ....

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Hillbilly
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2001-09-05          31595

Go to Yahoo stock board and type in "DE" for John Deere stock,click on messages and go to post 3016,this guy works for JD and is a contact for the front axle problem. ....

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DRankin
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2001-09-05          31604

I checked out hillbillys tip. All the messages seem to relate to 4400 axles, not to the 4100 axle that started this discussion. Is'nt the 4100 axle a different design and from Japan? ....

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Roger L.
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2001-09-07          31671

Mark, I'm back from vacation and getting caught up on messages. No, I don't have an alternate explanation for the ruts your front tires are leaving. Or rather, I have several but not enough information to pick one. But I'll bet we can narrow the field. Every 4wd front axle manufactured by anyone has a differential in it, so you can bet that the two front wheels are able to rotate at different speeds. When you are turning, the outside wheel has to turn faster than the inside wheel and this is should be accomplished by the differential...if it is doing its job. Maybe it isn't "differentiating". To test it, put it in 2wd, jack up one front wheel and see if you can rotate that wheel by hand while the other wheel stays stationary.
For an entirely diffferent reason, the inner front wheel should also pivot farther than the outer wheel when you turn. If this geometry is not set up right then the front wheels will skid.
On the 4100 I'll bet that you will find that the front axle differential is working and that the steering geometry is correct as well.
The problem of "pushing" the front end may not have an easy resolution. In fact it may not be possible to set up your tractor so that it doesn't happen in soft soils. So far, no manufacturer provides a center differential for any compact tractor. This means that all 4wd compacts are "part time 4wd" rather than "full time 4wd" and that the rotation of the front drive axle is solidly connected to the rear drive axle. One result of this is that the degree to which the front wheels are pushed through a turn is partly determined by the traction and spacing of the rear tires.
I believe the 4100 series does have a different front axle from the other 4000 series JDs. JD never did advertise what problem they had fixed when they began replacing the older axles. A few years ago on this forum we speculated that the problem might have been with the way that JD was applying the "Ackerman" geometry to their steering. You could probably retrieve those threads and read them if you are curious. There was a lot of information there. ....

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Art White
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2001-09-08          31674

I think with the type of soils it does make a difference as to the tractors and the type of decks used to mow. With the sandy soil descrribed you much like someone with a wet lawn dwould not be able to use a ground engaging float system for a mower as the small wheels would also be digging in. Having to mow in four wheel drive causes the front end to push the fast tire or inside tire and try to speed up the fast tire, this is a problem that the Bi-speed turn function on the Kubota tractors helps solve. Your steering toe-in should be checked as it is the only adjustment that you can make other than air pressure to change the tire speed to the ground. ....

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TomG
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2001-09-09          31692

Roger: I read you comment several times before realizing that one illustration was different front axle speeds and the other was different degrees of pivot. Finally got it but that's just me rather than your comment. I'm wondering if the 'centre-differential' is one that is on the front axle drive shaft, which is what I recall from the previous thread mentioned. I thought a drive shaft differential allowed the front and rear drive shafts to turn at different speeds in a turn to allow for the different arcs turned by the front and rear wheels. Maybe that's a different problem from a different thread, but more likely I just have something else to get. Hope your vacation was a good one. ....

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Roger L.
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2001-09-09          31697

Tom, thanks for sticking with the theory. I apologise for the wandering nature of the comments...as you realized, I did shift mental gears right in the middle and went from front axle speeds to degrees of pivot.
By "center differential" I mean a differential between the front and rear drive shafts. Although a center differential is common on all wheel drive cars, I do not know of a single compact that uses this feature. Such a tractor would have 3 differentials: one each in the center of the front and the rear axle pairs, plus one on the transmission between the front and rear drive shafts. This would allow the front and rear drive shafts to turn at different speeds and would compensate for different size tires front to rear as well as for different axle spacings. A center differential is not a cure-all; having it can actually reduce traction in sloppy conditions. Vehicles with center differentials usually have some way to lock the center diff if needed. The advantage to a center diff. is reduced "plowing" in turns. The traditional front and rear differentials - which all 4wd compacts have - do an adequate job of compensating for the different tire speeds on the same axle when turning.
We had a pretty good snow yesterday! Get ready! ....

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TomG
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2001-09-10          31710

Roger: Yes, that's how I remember the previous discussion. I also remember that your original comment gave me a lot of insight into steering geometry—still, geometry started ‘foggin my noggin’ about the 10th grade and some thing never get much better. I can sort of visualize the arcs traveled by the front and rear wheels in a turn and see how different axle speeds would be required to prevent tires from scuffing though. Since I grew-up in Denver I'm aware that August is the only month it has never snowed in Denver. I do remember almost 2' the 3rd of September and also 2' foot late in May though. We're just getting over a heat wave here. I think I'll stay in denial and refuse to admit that snow exists for awhile. Besides, I have to drive the tractor back from our camp before I can get ready, or maybe I'll just look at the snowshoes in the basement instead. ....

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DRankin
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2001-09-10          31732

Roger and fellow posters, thanks for your kind and thoughtful input. I certainly never meant to imply that there was no differential gearing on my 4100. By way of apology, I have been running on autopilot for the last month as we have had a near death in the family. Looking back through what I have written it is clear that I should have waited until my mind was clear before trying to put my observations into words.
Bye the bye, if any of your family members are small in stature, elderly or frail keep them away for the airbags in your cars and trucks. If you can turn the damn things off , by all means do it, before you rack up a quarter million or so in medical bills.
Back on track…….. My first problem after taking delivery of the tractor was the R-1’s on the front were so aggressive both in tread pattern and gearing that they actually functioned like a roto-tiller. I have since replaced all the tires. After reading what you guys have to say I’ve done a little driving in 2wd and pushing you describe is clearly evident, I almost hit my tool shed twice when the critter took a 45 degree tack on a 90 degree turn before I cancelled the experiment. It seems the short-coupled nature of the tractor contributes greatly to the problem. I have several times driven my Toyota Tacoma over the same ground in 4wd and found nothing but clear tire impressions later. There was no digging, pushing, grinding or scuffing. So, it seems to be a fundamental and inescapable design issue that combines aggressive (faster) front end gearing, desperate wheel sizes, and short wheel base to create this scuffing and digging. All in all it is still the best thing going as it is very clear that a 2wd tractor cannot even operate on my land. It simply does not produce enough traction to climb the slopes let alone do any work at the same time. Once again, thanks for the thoughts and consideration.

....

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Roger L.
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2001-09-11          31747

Mark, no problems here...hope you are out of the woods on that medical problem. In spite of all of the white elephants we are chasing on this turf plowing thing (some of which is my fault I think :-()..... We can't loose sight of the obvious solution: Although problems with the differential are very rare, they are not impossible. And if either the front or rear differential is not working properly, then your tractor will plow terribly in the turns. ....

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FJ45
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2001-09-11          31769

After reading all the replays, it hit me why I may be having the problem in soaft and sandy soil. I had about 500lbs of balast added to the rear tires. With this much added weight and rear traction I would think The push on the frount tires may be a lot greater. I like the extra balast for landscaping and bucket work. Let me know if you agree about the extra push on the frt tires from this.

Thanks for all the feed back ....

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Art White
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2001-09-12          31774

One more time, check your toe-in the 4100's had some errors there. If you are pushing your front than add air, if you are pulling to much with the front remove some. No difference should be made with your thoughts, but if it didn't do it before the tires were loaded than you still need to balance your tire pressure. ....

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DRankin
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2001-09-12          31781

Ok Art. I hear you. The manual is silent on this topic. Do you have some guidance on the numbers? Is there a standard rule of thumb? E.G. so mamy inches of axle span sould hae 'X'fractions of an inch of toe in? It must also have a relationship to the wheel base at least the it would seem so. Any suggestions? Thanks. ....

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Art White
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2001-09-13          31785

Mark, I don't work with those tractors to much but the rule of thumb is 1/8" toe in for most all veihcles. I looked in there literature to see what style steering they use on that model but I couldn't see it. You might have to do it in two steps, another words, each half seperatly. They did send some out that the toe-in was not set right. You might notice it as it would only do it in a left or right turn. ....

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Roger L.
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2001-09-13          31786

Toe-in is set by adjusting the length of the rod (tie rod) that ties the two front wheels together and makes them steer as one. Most (not all) rods are adjusted in a turnbuckle fashion with threads at both ends. Don't worry about which wheel you are adjusting; you cannot adjust one wheel differently than the other. If you try to do so by turning the threads at one end more than the other, all you will succeed in doing is to cause the steering wheel to be rotated off center. Generally you set toe in so that the fronts of the tires are 1/8 to 1/4 inch closer together than the rears - some vehicles with a lot of "caster" have toe-in set at zero. If you are at all sensitive to steering, you will do better setting the toe in yourself and using the factory specs as a guideline. That is how the factory specs are intended to be used. The purpose of toe in is to keep a vehicle from wandering around when you are going straight down the road and at higher speeds. It doesn't have much to do with turning unless it is way out of adjustment. For a tractor, you can set toe in with a couple of 2x4s to establish parallel lines from the rear wheels and then set the toe in with a tape measure will be fine.
Interestingly, toe-out is NOT the opposite of toe-in. Toe-out is more related to oversteer and understeer at all speeds (and plowing the front end) and is not adjustable. Toe-out is the different degrees of turn that the inside and outside wheels make. You will also hear it called "Ackerman geometry".
Mark, I agree that the weight on the back tires could be plowing your front tires in soft soil. The reason would be exactly what you said...or what I think you meant by what you said... the change in the proportion of weight carried by the front vs the rear tires is causing the rears to have so much more traction than the fronts, that the fronts are being pushed rather than digging in and being able to turn the tractor. Before doing any adjustments I would borrow some suitcase weights and try them on the front bumper. It might be an easy solution.

....

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